Zombies

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Zombies

Postby bloodeye on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:08 pm

No, Danny's second statement is incorrect. Or at least, parlty incorrect, it depends on the type of zombie. But rather then complicate the issue, let's stick to 'Night of the Living Dead' style zombies, for the moment.

A NotLD style zombie eats brains, and to kill them, you must destory their own brain. However, one turns into a zombie by being infected with the chemical that makes zombies, be it from the enviroment, or from a zombie bite. Now, if the person bitten runs away, they are infected, eventually die and turn into a zombie themselves. However, if they are caught by a zombie, their brain is eaten, and they turn into a corpse, nothing more. In more series at least.

In a few series, it makes a diffrece what part of the brain we're talking about. In some, zombies eat the forebrain, but leave the hindbrain alone, having no intrest in it. A corpse with an intact hindbrain will rise as a zombie, but if the hindbrain is destroyed, the corpse does not rise. The mid-brain is a hit or miss area, and is why some zombies have memories of their former lives, while others do not. A corpse with the forebrain intact makes for a smarter then usual zombie, but it remains the hindbrain that matters.

But, if you get into Voodoo zombies, T-virus zombies, philosophical zombies, or D&D necromancy zombies, none of them crave brains, and the point becoms moot anyway.
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Re: Zombies

Postby Erzengel on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:26 pm

Philosophical zombies? Do they contemplate the meaning of unlife or something?

(Reads wikipedia)
...
...
...
WTF?
...
Perhaps I'm just not getting it, but it really sounds to me like the guy who came up with p-zombies is just adding arbitrary rules to his argument against a philosophy. It's like he says, "This here fork? It's not a fork. It looks like a fork, it feels like a fork, it picks up food like a fork. All the evidence that is and ever can be points to it being a fork, but it's not a fork. It's a zombie fork." That... that... that just doesn't make any sense...


Anyway, this isn't the first time the characters have drawn logic from incomplete or incorrect facts. Gav(character) complained that a commercial had tire screeching when "one would hope" the vehicle was using anti-lock brakes. Except, if you take a car with ABS up to 60 MPH and slam the brakes hard, you can feel the brake column shudder from the ABS, maintain full control of the vehicle, and hear your tires screech. I have actually experienced this. Empirical evidence vs. logic, who will win?
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Re: Zombies

Postby bloodeye on Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:39 pm

Not being familiar with what exactly you read, not sure, but sounds like they're a bit off.

A philosophical zombie is an idea, the idea of a regular person, but who lacks a soul. The idea is used in thought experiments and discussion.

For example, there's the concept that it's okay to kill animals, but not huamsn, beacuase humasn have a soul. So does that mean it would be okay to kill a zombie? They look like a human, act like a human, sceam when you cut them like a human, bu, they lack a soul, so killing them is okay? (this is very oversimplified, but hopefully gets the concept across)
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Re: Zombies

Postby Erzengel on Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:18 pm

What I read on Wikipedia was that they are indistinguishable from a human, but lack conscious experience. Which is to say, all evidence points at the p-zombie having conscious experience, but it doesn't. Or, in your case, all evidence points to the p-zombie having a soul. It looks and acts like a human, it would say "yes I have soul", etc. Everything you can ever independently verify says it has a soul. "This looks like a fork, it picks up food like a fork, all evidence says it's a fork." But you say it doesn't have a soul or conscious experience. "But it isn't a fork". It's a p-zombie. "It's a fork zombie".
I just don't understand how something can perfectly appear to be conscious (that is, self aware, subjective, has continuity, can change, and exhibits selectivity) and yet not be conscious?
It's like saying, "This here laptop is indistinguishable from the computer next to it. However, it doesn't compute. Oh sure, you put a game in it and it runs just like the computer next to it. You can open the calculator program and you can type in 2 + 2 and it will say 4, but it doesn't actually do any computing. It lacks the ability to compute. It is a computer zombie." It just doesn't make sense to me. How does that work, pixie dust? How does a p-zombie manage to appear to have consciousness when it doesn't? Pixie dust?
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Re: Zombies

Postby Gav on Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:29 pm

Erzengel wrote:Anyway, this isn't the first time the characters have drawn logic from incomplete or incorrect facts. Gav(character) complained that a commercial had tire screeching when "one would hope" the vehicle was using anti-lock brakes. Except, if you take a car with ABS up to 60 MPH and slam the brakes hard, you can feel the brake column shudder from the ABS, maintain full control of the vehicle, and hear your tires screech. I have actually experienced this. Empirical evidence vs. logic, who will win?


Not even going to touch the zombies... but as for that particular "tire screech commercial" strip, that's actually one of the very few Nukees strips I wish I could retract. When I first saw that commercial, of course I wasn't really paying attention until after I thought I heard the long, continuous screech sound. Then I went to YouTube and confirmed that it didn't sound (or look) at all like anti-lock brakes (which do make a screech sound, but "skip" out of it again and again).

But later, after drawing and publishing the strip, I saw the commercial on TV again and suddenly realized that upon closer inspection at regular resolution/quality, the brakes actually did "skip" like anti-lock brakes. It was the poor quality of the YouTube video that blended the sound/tire imagery into one long screech. But then it was too late.

Everything else I've ever done is fine, though. :)
Lates...

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Re: Zombies

Postby towr on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:14 am

Erzengel wrote:I just don't understand how something can perfectly appear to be conscious (that is, self aware, subjective, has continuity, can change, and exhibits selectivity) and yet not be conscious?
You have to consider that the p-zombie argument is an argument from imagination. And all it says that what is physically observable may not comprise all the facts. That is "may not", not "does not". If what we count as consciousness can be physically explained (something which is as yet out of reach of neuroscience), then we don't need to posit, as some do, that there is something beyond the physical.
Of course, most people would insist their consciousness influences their behaviour, which is impossible in a causally closed universe unless consciousness is also physical (or part physical, in which case only the physical part determines its influence). The non-physical consciousness would be unable to do anything but look on (in a non-physical way; so no interaction with photons and such to see anything). So, as it were the only difference between a real human and a p-zombie is that the former has a soul floating around experiencing things, without, however, being able to influence what the body does in any way, at all. (Which isn't as strange as you might think considering humans' ability to confabulate and rationalize; albeit still pretty strange.)

Personally, I'm of the persuasion that we are entirely physical beings, consciousness, qualia and all. They may be weird phenomena, but the alternative would be weirder.
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Re: Zombies

Postby towr on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:25 am

someone at wikipedia wrote:According to Chalmers, one can coherently conceive of an entire zombie world: a world physically indiscernible from our world, but entirely lacking conscious experience.
If conscious experience is caused by the physical brain, then this wouldn't be true. At least not any more true than that you can imagine a universe identical to ours in all respects except that the speed of light is doubled. A lack of understanding makes a great deal of things imaginable, but fails to account for how things are connected.
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Re: Zombies

Postby bloodeye on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:00 pm

Both thought experiments basically boil down to a question of 'What IS a soul?' 'What IS contiousness?'

In order to answer the question of if it is possible to have a person who appears to have a contiousness, but in fact does not, you have to have an understanding of what a contiousness is. While many people throw the word around, few have ever stopped to ponder what exactly they mean by the term, and how the presence or lack effects things.
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