The dread Avalon CCG topic returns

Canadian teenagers jus' kickin' it 24/7.

Moderators: MarkusN, Josh Phillips

Forum rules
Locked due to spam magnet.

Postby Josh Phillips on Sat Dec 22, 2001 2:51 am

Yes, it's back. :-) I got inspired after reading up on the <A HREF="http://www.dvorakgame.co.uk/">Dvorak card game engine</A>. Previous incarnations of this subject have been beaten to death <A HREF="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/Forum10/HTML/000471.html">here</A> and <A HREF="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/Forum10/HTML/002098.html">here</A>.<P>The first step in the game design, in my mind, is setting a goal (ie. the winning conditions). Right now I'm thinkinjg of graduating from high school... so the game is pretty much about getting through high school, Avalon-style.<P>The player will represent some random student who enters Grade 9 at Avalon High School. There will be character cards, featuring all the characters seen to date in the comic. There will be limitations on when during the game they can be played, since Ceilidh came to the school in Grade 11, and Iain was only there for Grade 12, Ghada graduated early, etc.<P>I'm thinking that the game will have a linear flow through each grade (well, it kinda has to if you're to win by graduating). My original idea was that you have to pass each year in turn, and to do this you need to accumulate a bunch of grades and then pass the final exams for each year. But if this was all controlled by collecting cards, some players might pass Grade 11 before other even pass Grade 9, and it gets all messed up. A better alternative would be to have fixed rounds of game play (like 10 semesters, for five grades), in which you have to accumulate all the required marks and whatnot to pass that semester. If you don't, you're "held back" and need to try again. And so, whomever gets to graduation first wins. It would even be possible to fast-track like Ghada did, and graduate after only 4 years. (This is starting to turn into an Ontario Public School System CCG. :-) )<P>The characters could be played as "friends", and would give you additional help in passing... like help with certain subjects, or possibly even help in undermining other players. For instance, if Nancy is helping out another player, you could play Ceilidh and have her nullify Nancy's effects through the use of fear.<P>Then there would be events, like a note being hidden in your locker, or a necklace from a secret admirer, or a camping trip, etc... these would have various effects on different characters and on the players. A player might become "depressed," and do poorly in their courses, or "happy" or "inspired" and do better.<P>So, any comments on these ideas?<P>JOSH.
<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A>
User avatar
Josh Phillips
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2683
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Postby Josh Phillips on Sat Dec 22, 2001 3:04 am

Hm... some more concrete ideas...<P>If each round of play was a semester, there could be 1st Semester, 2nd Semester, and Summer Break.<P>There could be Course cards... by passing a course, you'd get a credit toward graduating. You'd have to collect enough credits to fulfill graduation requirements (and there are some prerequisites that everyone will have to pass). Most of these would be done during the two semesters, but some might be available as summer courses.<P>Hm... this would make a great generic school CCG. A university CCG would be awesome... you pick a major, and then go about fulfilling all the insane requirements, while getting hit with event cards that screw up your personal life. I'm sure everyone would prefer playing the game than living it out in real life. ;-)<P>JOSH.<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Josh Phillips (edited 12-22-2001).]
User avatar
Josh Phillips
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2683
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Postby Hai-Etlik on Sat Dec 22, 2001 3:48 am

I kind of liked the goal cards system discussed earlier (like the mission/location cards in ST:CCG) You could keep them for one style of game, and have an alternate set of rules where you just discard the goals at the begining to get the graduate first game. Maybe graduating early could give a bonus (2 times point value from highest scoring semester for a semester early, or apply to the two highest semesters for a year early) and late could give a penalty (LOSING your highest scoring semesters). A pure first to graduate system would tend toward everyone graduating at once for the most part since the real school system is built that way.<P>Maybe it would be a good idea fro everyone to indicate which CCGs and similar card games they have played in their first posts (so we have a better idea of what experience we collectively have to draw on.)<P>I have played MTG and ST:CCG(TNG, Alternate Universe, and DS9)
User avatar
Hai-Etlik
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Duncan, BC, Canada

Postby RJ Shep on Sat Dec 22, 2001 5:28 am

I've played SW:CCG and Pokemon. I'm starting to get into Harry Potter.<P>One thing the HP:TCG has is an "Adventure" card. You play it, and your opponent suffers negative effects until they complete the card's requirements (skipping turns, discarding cards). It seems to me this would work within Josh's idea, and introduce some patented twistiness into the game (eg "operation cheer up" that you would play if your opponent is using a supporting character, or something)<P>Just my $0.02 US
User avatar
RJ Shep
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: AZ, USA

Postby SabrStrykMkII on Sat Dec 22, 2001 5:57 am

Magic (from Portal and Tempest Cycle to Mercadian Masques), Star Wars, and Pok
User avatar
SabrStrykMkII
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Gastonia, NC, USA

Postby The Incredible Hatboy on Sat Dec 22, 2001 7:33 am

Josh: Stop thinking about CCGs.<P>DRAW, DAMN YOU, DRAW!<P>Or I'll hunt you down in the dead of night and shove pen and paper at you.<P>Don't tempt me - I will!
The Incredible Hatboy
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA

Postby Nick Pavlovski on Sat Dec 22, 2001 7:33 am

Well, I know a few of us put together proto-CCG's the other 2 times this topic has been discussed.<P>I know both Wapiko and I made versions.
But without consrtuctive criticism of any sort, I know I stopped work on mine and went back to fan-fic.<P>Josh, perhaps everyone should send you their versions, then you judge the one that everyone will run with, and then the rest of us who want to work on it can all go from there- of course, main kudos going to the successful person.<P>That's my thought. I still have my old version if anyone wants to have a look - contact me at shobatta@hotmail.com<p>[This message has been edited by Nick Pavlovski (edited 12-22-2001).]
Nick Pavlovski
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Postby Foust on Sat Dec 22, 2001 8:19 am

Hahahaha. Hysterical.<P>------------------
Sucess is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
Foust
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:00 am
Location: London, On

Postby Josh Phillips on Sat Dec 22, 2001 10:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Pavlovski:
<B>Josh, perhaps everyone should send you their versions, then you judge the one that everyone will run with, and then the rest of us who want to work on it can all go from there- of course, main kudos going to the successful person.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OH MY GOD NO. I do *not* have either the free time nor the stamina to read through a dozen or two game proposals and then judge them. My preferred method is brainstorming, in which we try to build on each other's ideas. Not only would it be nigh impossible to choose any one individual proposal as the best and complete, but then my judgement alone can't be trusted to choose the one everyone will like.<P>You want to just link to your proposal so everyone can see it?<P>JOSH.
<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A>
User avatar
Josh Phillips
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2683
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Postby Slithy Tove on Sat Dec 22, 2001 11:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B>The first step in the game design, in my mind, is setting a goal (ie. the winning conditions). Right now I'm thinkinjg of graduating from high school... so the game is pretty much about getting through high school, Avalon-style. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know life at AHS is difficult when just making it out alive is considered a goal to strive for <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
Slithy Tove
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:00 pm

Postby Eyeless Blond on Sun Dec 23, 2001 3:02 am

I haven't really looked over all the previous posts for the CCG idea, but IMO a card game would be best with a single, numerical way to judge a winner. Since Life Points or Hit Points don't really make sense in Avalon's context (how many main charecters have died so far?) I'm thinking that a Victory Points concept makes more sense. Each Player has certain charecter cards, each of which has a certain number of inherent Grade Points (obviously, for grades on Test events and whatnot), Relationship Points (which only count if the charecter is in a relationship) and Angst Points, which are negative and count off from a player's total. For example:<P>Player 1 plays the Joe charecter card. Player 2 responds with Nancy (whom we all know has a way of frightening Joe, giving that charecter an Angst Point.) Player 1 plays his Ceilidh card, which gives Nancy an Angst Point. Player 2 plays a Credit card (in this case, Chemistry) on Nancy, which could get her some Grade Points later on. Player 1 plays a Relationship card on his Joe and Ceilidh, which can give them Relationship Points when they graduate...<P>And so on. We could have lots of different cards (including the dreaded Twistiness card, which can remove one of an opponent's Relationships, etc), with the ultimate goal of accumulating as many points as possible before the game ends. The game could end when, say, four people graduate HS, or one charecter accumulates twenty Grade Points, etc.<P>Anyway, this is just an idea. Lemme know if any of that makes sense. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
Eyeless Blond
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:00 pm

Postby Eyeless Blond on Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:37 am

Okay, I fleshed out my idea and tried to format it like the rules for a normal board game, to make it a bit clearer for everyone. Let me know if it makes snese to everyone. This is /just/ a rough idea, but I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of it.<P>Avalon CCG Rules Proposal
by the Eyeless Blond<P>Materials:
Decks of cards. Each player (should more than 1-on-1 be allowed? I don't know) has their own deck, which must have at least three Charecter cards in it (and probably should have more.) <P>General Rules:<P>Each player starts by shuffling his or her own deck and drawing six cards from the top. In each turn the player may do up to two of the following actions, in any order:
1. Introducing a Character card.
2. Starting a Relationship between two Characters, or upgrade a Relationship from Platonic to Romantic (hehe...) See below for details.
3. Playing up to two Relationship Point, or Grade Point cards.
4. Playing an Event Card.
5. Discarding up to six cards from his or her hand and replacing them from his or her deck.
At the end of the turn, each players should draw cards from the top of their deck until he or she has six cards in his/her hand. <P>
Introducing Characters:<P>Characters are the backbone of this proposed game. These charecters go through the game accumulating Grade Points, Relationship Points, and perhaps the rare Event Points, with the hope of eventually graduating; once enough characters graduate the game is over. Certain characters such as Deidre have already graduated; such charecters are noted as graduated on the card itself and are counted toward the total of graduated characters.<P>When Character cards are introduced they should be placed relatively far apart from one another as they will be accumulating a number of Grade Point cards, Relationship Cards, and Event Cards as the game progresses.<P>
Graduation:<P>Of course, every Character wants to be a high school graduate. Some people, like Dierdre and Mrs. Page, are already graduated. Such things are already noted on their Character card. Some, like Noelle and Cecil, will never graduate. But most Characters can indeed achieve graduation, if they recieve enough Grade Points (discussed below). Once a Character has graduated, they can no longer get Grade Points and must settle for Event Points (like jobs) and Relationship points.<P>
Relationships:<P>Creating Relationships is easily the most delicate and rewarding part of Avalon (it also gets you the most point. There are two types of Relationship cards: red for romantic and blue for platonic. As such, there are two types of Relationships: Platonic (blue) and Romantic (Red), each of which have their own restrictions and benefits.<P>Platonic Relationships are started by placing a blue Relationship Point card sideways between any two Character cards. This card serves no other purpose than to signify that a Relationship exists; nothing on the card itself is useful except its color, which signifies a Relationship. Once this is done, the two Characters are in a Platonic Relationship and can have blue Relationship Point cards placed on either of them. If the Relationship is dissolved (through the use of a Twistiness Event card or similar <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">) then is can be re-formed by placing another blue Relationship card between the two Characters.<P>Platonic Relationships can also be upgraded to red Romantic Relationships by placing a red Relationship Point card on top of the blue card. Romantic Relationships are harder to break and allow placement of red Relationship Point cards, which are better than blue cards. However, Romantic Relationships can ONLY be formed between compatable Characters (ie Joe and Ceilidh can be romantically involved, but not Alison and Deirdre.) Certain Event cards also only affect Characers in Romantic Relationships, like First Kiss ( <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">).<P>No Character can be in more than one Romantic Relationship at any time, nor can the Character be in more than two total Relationships at any time. Two Characters who evter into a Relationship may only differ by X number of Relationship Points; if the difference is greater then Relationship Point cards must be discarded from the Character with the greater number until the difference is less than X.<P>
Point Cards<P>Point cards have two basic types: Grade Points and Relationship Points. <P>Grade Points can only be played on non-graduated Characters. When a Grade Point card is played on a Character, that card stays with that Character forever unless an Event like Test Anxiety specifically takes it away. Once a Character recieves twenty Grade Points they graduate and they are immune to these effects.<P>Relationship Points can only be placed on Characters in a Relationship. Red cards can be placed only on Characters with Romantic relationships; however, blue cards can be placed on Characters in either Romantic or Platonic relationships, or both. There are no limits on how many Relationship Point cards that may be placed on a Character, so long as each Character that this Character is in a Relationship with is contributing equally (eg. their Points differ by less than X.)<P>
Event Cards<P>These cards have effects which are read directly from the card. If not otherwise stated, these effects occur immediately.<P>
End of the Game<P>Haven't thought about how the points will be totaled up. Perhaps the game should be over when six or more Characters are graduated?<P>
Whew! That was soooooo much longer than I expected! Anyway, if anyone' still reading, what do you think?
Eyeless Blond
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:00 pm

Postby Darth Avatar on Sun Dec 23, 2001 7:42 am

Hmmm....<P>I'm thinking perhaps two types of base cards - Character and Goal. The Character card dictates how that card interacts with the others while the Goal card dictates what the character must obtain through the course of the game (what dictates how they accumulate points, though this assumes a fixed-duration game).<P>This also allows for a rather interesting Event card - "Change of Priorities", whereby a character basically changes their minds about what they want out of their high school experience. This can be played by the controlling player, should the character inadvertantly be piling up events and courses and such things that would work better under a different priority, or by an opposing player should the character seem to be doing too well at their current goal.<P>Yeah, yeah, I know this is technically only a subset of what would be involved total, but it does make sense to me.<P><P>------------------
<B>Darth Avatar</B><P><UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>"Try this. Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings. Too sweet?"
<LI>"What is it?"
<LI>"I don't know - I found it in one of the labs..."
</UL>
User avatar
Darth Avatar
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 12:00 am
Location: WA, USA

Postby Nick Pavlovski on Sun Dec 23, 2001 12:55 pm

Fair enough. Can I e-mail it to you so you can link it?<P>I don't know how to link. I have no PC skillz.
Nick Pavlovski
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Postby Josh Phillips on Sat Dec 29, 2001 12:55 pm

First off, I managed to spark some discussion of this in #avalon-ccg on NightStar last night. I'll lurk in there for a while, so if you drop by (and I'm actually online) we can discuss the CCG in real-time. Much better for bouncing ideas off of several people.<P>Anyways, here is some of the stuff that Hai-Etlik, maswan, and I drummed up:<P>There are Character cards (naturally), and you'll choose one of them to represent within the game (so you get to play as your favourite character). The other Characters represent your friends, and they can have different levels of friendship with you (ie. "acquaintance," "friend," "close friend," "boy/girlfriend"). You have to spend lots of Effort to bring friends to a higher level, but once there they can give you even more support (and be less susceptible to your opponents). These friends will be able to support you in various endeavours.<P>Each player will be using their own Character cards, so there can be duplicates in play at any given time (ie. two players could both have Joe in their circle of friends). Each character will have his/her own conditions for multiple friendships (ie. some can be friends with more than one player, or only with one player, or can only be one person's Close Friend, etc.).<P>Each player will choose a Goal card to determine how they will win the game. Whomever achieves their goal first will be the winner (and everyone knows what the others' goals are, so you can undermine other players). These might be things such as achieving a romantic relationship with another character, or getting high grades in school, or holding a job for a certain amount of time.<P>Every player will have a certain total amount of Effort that they can spend on all of their activities. For example, each player would start with 100 Effort points, and would then have to spend Effort on things such as school, a job, relationships, hobbies, etc. You would have to dedicate certain amounts regularly each round, such as to school -- if you don't dedicate a certain amount of Effort to Academics, you run the risk of failing (which would have negative repercussions within the game).<P>Then there are one-time events... things like Final Exam, Job Interview, New Year's Party, etc. These can work toward reaching your goal, or could be used against your opponents to slow them down, or might even be required to perform certain actions or befriend certain people. These Events would require a certain amount of Effort to succeed at (or at least to benefit from them), and this Effort would have to be taken from whatever is free after considering all the fixed allocations discussed above. It would be possible to temporarily take Effort away from work or school to perform a short activity, but it might have bad consequences.<P>Also, if you spread yourself too thin and have almost no Effort points left over in a round, you could become tired or depressed. However, you could get your Character friends to help you out in times of need.<P>Here's a wa that Effort spending can be determined, depending on a Character's expertise. Consider the realm of Academics. Ryan would have an Academics attribute of 10, and Alan would have 4. "Final Exam" is played on each of them, an Academic Event with an Effort score of 7. Ryan's score of 10 is higher than this, suggesting he can handle it easily. He need only spend 7 Effort points to pass the exam. Alan, however, has a score less than that needed to pass the exam, so he needs to spend more Effort than usual. He spends the 7 points required by the Event, *plus* the difference between his score and the Events -- a total of 10 Effort points. If the player can't muster up that much Effort, he'll fail the exam, and it could count against their chosen Goal.<P>That's about all that was discussed on IRC. A lot of this depends on details included within each card (especially with respect to achieving Goals). What also is needed are some categories for Events and for their matching Character attributes -- things like Academics, Creativity, Relationships, etc. And as always, anyone can suggest changes or comment on this potential design.<P>JOSH.
<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A>
User avatar
Josh Phillips
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2683
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Postby Jen Aside on Sun Dec 30, 2001 1:00 am

<a name=abc>
Aight, Josh... you asked for it <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"><P>I am most familiar with/fond of the Monster Rancher/Monster Farm "Battle Cards" game, of which there are both a CCG and CCG-based PSX game(!) with the CCG art (or vice-versa, but I don't specifically know which came first, the cards or the PSX game)... so if I made a CCG system, it would invariably be stolen from Battle Cards. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>Therefore... Avalon Battle Cards <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"> (Battlon?)<P>Each character [in school--not Mrs. Page or Deirdre or Cecil] is represented by a "Student" card (Ceilidh, Joe, Ryan, etc.), and each character has Action cards specific to that character (i.e. Nancy would have a Kendo Sword Attack). There are also School cards that affect all the Students in play and "Assignment" Action cards (also called Teacher cards) that affect any Student in general. Each player creates a playing deck of three Students and fifty Action cards (to be fair--one person can't have more or fewer cards than the other). Incidentally, up to three of any type Action/Assignment card is allowed in any one deck (one to three Kendo Attacks only--not fifty), and only one type of Student card is allowed in a team (i.e. can't have two Ceilidhs).<P>The object of the game is to advance your own team to Graduation. This is done by a point system, where each Student has a certain number of points s/he must earn in order to graduate (the points vary per Student). Points are earned through actions performed with the Action/Assignment cards (see below), and when a Student earns the appropriate number of grade points necessary to graduate, that Student is out of play and can neither perform Actions or be a target of any kind.<P>There is a secondary point system, called Motivation, which allows each player to use their cards. Motivation points are earned by [voluntarily] discarding cards (1 point per card discarded) and used up according to how many points any particular card requires (some may require 0, some may require 8!).<P>Turns are taken such:<P>Players flip a coin to decide who goes first. The player losing the toss has the option of discarding up to two cards (and earning up to two Motiv. points). After this discard stage, the player winning the toss then has the first attack and can play any cards in hand, provided s/he has enough Motiv. points to play them (in this case, any cards that require 0 Motiv. to use). When an Action is performed, the defending player has the option of playing a Counter card that counteracts the effects of the Action card (if applicable).<P>After each Action, Motiv. is lowered for that player accordingly--incidentally, each Student gets one Action per turn (if possible), and only one Teacher card may be used per turn (unless Action cards otherwise allow). Certain unique cards may be used in combination with other cards for added effect--these are not limited (except by the fact that each player only has up to five cards in hand at any time).<P>After each turn, the player who has just acted has the option of discarding as many cards as s/he wants (i.e. no cards, some cards, or all cards) and earning Motiv. points according to how many cards that player discarded.<P>In the event that one player runs out of cards, that player loses automatically.<P>Possible Actions (all the ones that come to mind--obviously there should be more than this, tho):<P>Alan (9):
- Necklace Gift (take away 3 points of other player's Motiv.) 3 Motiv.
- Hel
Jen Aside
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1283
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 12:00 am

Postby Alan Foreman on Sun Dec 30, 2001 6:30 am

Wait, you do this for FUN right?<P>------------------
Al<P><A HREF="http://www.PoisonedMinds.com/" TARGET=_blank>www.PoisonedMinds.com</A><P>You know you want to!
User avatar
Alan Foreman
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Uranus

 

Return to Avalon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests