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Postby gwalla on Wed Nov 14, 2001 3:42 am

Cool, another conlanger!<P>I'm in the process of creating languages (yes, plural) for a project. The current plan is for it to be a webcomic, but the dialogue will all be in the characters' native (fictional) languages. As you can imagine, it's taking a while (partially because I don't work on it often <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">).<P>What's your method for creating a language? Making up the lexicon from scratch, or deriving it from an existing vocabulary through regular sound changes? Do you tend towards agglutinative, inflecting, or isolating languages? Inquiring minds want to know! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"><P>To answer your question, I think you may need to purchase font foundry software.<P>------------------
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Postby amnoduck on Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:35 am

how do you do that?<P>hmmm... maybe you need some context for that question.<P>CONTEXT:
okay, a friend and i are writing a fantasy novel, and i am in charge of cultural creation and language. as you have probobly guessed by now, in the fashion of tolkien, i am in the midst of creating a language. <P>now about 4-5 months ago, i was reading my favorite comic's message boards, and saw some fan art, and the artist had made a new font by taking josh's handwriting. and i would like to be able to make such a font with some phoenetic characters that i have created.<P>insert question here: how do you do that?<P>also, is the font available for others (namely me) to make fan art as well (once i got some free time that is).
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Postby Capn Lazarus on Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:44 am

.....Clockwork Orange (the book) had a disturbing method of incorporating undefined terms into the general work without using a glossary. Context was the only means the reader had to catch up to the terminology and it took repetition for it all to sink in. A brand new language in the entirety would be burdensome beyond tolerance. Even Carroll's "Jabberwocky" was NOT nonsense--it just incorporated nonsense words which have since become assimilated into the language. Nonsense as a second language? No thanks!<P>------------------
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Postby amnoduck on Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:47 am

well, im starting this language that i am starting on from scratch. i wrote the alphabet first, deriving the symbols from the way the mouth moves while making the sounds. then, i assigned meanings to different groups of letters that are similar, and more specific meanings to each individual letter. all words then proceed from various combinations of these general meanings. i hope to end up with a beautiful, yet primitive pictoral language based on phonetics.<P>thus, any one with a basic knowledge of the letters could make up words that native speakers could understand, because the meaning lies in the letters. <P>either that or im full of hot air...<P>its not particularly any persuasion just yet, because i havent come up with a full vocabulary yet, but it is quite versitile, being able to accomidate the rough consonants of germany and the dipthongs of southern united states with relative ease. well, now that i think of it, its rather breathy. except that the only thing it cant emulate well is the letter W. i end up putting in the corrosponding letters to "hua" but thats as close as i get. <P>however, i havent done all that much study on the subject, except for my background in languages, where i took spanish for two years, french for one, japanese for one semester, german for one semester, latin for one semester, greek for three semesters, and english for entirely too long. and i am somewhat familliar with the style or construction of hebrew, and two tribal languages. but other than that, i really havent looked around on how to do it, because i like being original, and i will go to great lengths to do so. <P>and the usage of said language(s?) will be quite more tolkeinesque than its inception.<P>btw, does anyone here have any font foundry software, or have recommendations for good ones, or cheap ones?<p>[This message has been edited by amnoduck (edited 11-15-2001).]
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Postby gwalla on Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by amnoduck:
<B>its not particularly any persuasion just yet, because i havent come up with a full vocabulary yet, but it is quite versitile, being able to accomidate the rough consonants of germany and the dipthongs of southern united states with relative ease. well, now that i think of it, its rather breathy. except that the only thing it cant emulate well is the letter W. i end up putting in the corrosponding letters to "hua" but thats as close as i get.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If a sound doesn't fit in your system, just don't include it--make it phonemically equivalent to "hua". No language treats all possible vocal sounds phonemically. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>however, i havent done all that much study on the subject, except for my background in languages, where i took spanish for two years, french for one, japanese for one semester, german for one semester, latin for one semester, greek for three semesters, and english for entirely too long. and i am somewhat familliar with the style or construction of hebrew, and two tribal languages. but other than that, i really havent looked around on how to do it, because i like being original, and i will go to great lengths to do so.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd suggest learning how it works, because while it's easy to create a "language", it's quite a different matter to create a language that the human brain can learn. For example, some people have made up "alien" languages that use a stack-based syntax (like Reverse Polish Notation claculators). It's actually impossible to learn how to speak those languages fluently.<P>A good place to start is <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/finis_stellae/ng/lng/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Pablo Flores' language creation page</A> for an intro, and his <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/finis_stellae/ng/lng/how/index.html" TARGET=_blank>How to Create a Language</A> page. It'll get you started on the basic concepts such as phones and phonemes, phonological constraints (what sound combinations are allowed? Can you make tripthongs or longer strings of vowels like in Hawaiian? What consonant clusters are allowed?), word classes, and other key considerations.<P>------------------
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Postby ollie on Thu Nov 15, 2001 5:41 am

just a few Fortean Times articles I'll link in here (with further reading/links next to the article text), as a reader of the FT, things like this have come up all the time, so here are the articles rather than my recollection of them <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>languages invented for code purposes,<A HREF="http://www.voynich.nu/" TARGET=_blank> *The Voynich Manuscript?*</A> languages 'given'<A HREF="http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/097_alpha.shtml" TARGET=_blank>*vattan* </A> by mystics, angels or aliens, 'universial' languages <A HREF="http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/145_solresol.shtml" TARGET=_blank>*Solresol (musical)*</A> to unite the world<P>loads of things, I'll follow this up in a minuite, got a lecture in 5 minuites.. oops..<P>[edit] just remembered, don't try and decode the Voynich Manuscript, otherwise you'll go mad, plus it's been rumoured to be a partial copy of teh Necronomican, so you'll also unleash legions of horrors unto the planes of man, or something <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> [/edit]
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Music news, reviews and more<P>[This message has been edited by ollie (edited 11-15-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by ollie (edited 11-16-2001).]
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Postby amnoduck on Thu Nov 15, 2001 11:32 am

thank you both. these articles and pages are much more useful than i thought they would be. im going to have to look into them in depth. it sure makes things easier when i can look at an articulation of the thoughts that have been swimming around in my head. <P>thanks again for your advice. although i didnt want to completely make an inclusive language, it does have more life to it when it is imperfect.<P>i never was attempting to create an indecipherable language, i think that misses the point. but rather a consistant language, one without all the rules that are broken. i will leave that to the dialects. now that i have read into a few articles, i have noticed that this is probobly going to turn out to be a mother tounge for many lesser languages that i can fit into different geographical reigons of the land that is being created here. <P>to answer the last few questions, im working on compound letters right now, to allow for dipthongs, tripthongs, and many other things. im actually up to 16 vowels, including compounded dipthongs and tripthongs as well as approximates are also treated as vowels, and "rhchrt" is actually not that difficult to say.<P>i think the most fun piece of grammar is that i have resolved from putting any nouns in the language. so, the word "pen" would be translated "may write" and "pencil" "may write or erase" but since the roots are quite short, the words are not that much lengthened.<P>ive 31 letters so far, yes, more vowels than consanants (told you it was breathy) and im expecting close to fifty by the time i am done. then its on to classifying motion and emotion to letters, and then to roots. i do suppose that ive got quite a way to go, but it doesnt bug me too much. my stuff wont even be used until we get to the second book. <P>feh. i talk too much for an editor.
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Postby gwalla on Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cap'n Lazarus:
<B>.....Clockwork Orange (the book) had a disturbing method of incorporating undefined terms into the general work without using a glossary. Context was the only means the reader had to catch up to the terminology and it took repetition for it all to sink in. A brand new language in the entirety would be burdensome beyond tolerance.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tolkein created the elven languages Sindarin and Quenya, and the place names and personal names of elves follow the rules of those languages. Various runic inscriptions are also in those languages, but whenever they appear they get translated.<P>In my case, if the webcomic idea goes through, I'll be using Javascript: click on dialogue balloon and it will toggle between the "original" language and English.<P>------------------
"My work here is done...
I go now, to mess with the Watchmen..."<P> - Darryl a.k.a. the Kingdom Come Baby, "Age of Crisis on Infinite Clones Saga - Chapter One Million: Onslaught of the Secret Genesis Wars Agenda", <I>Plastic Man Special '99</I>
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