Your Webcomic is Bad and You Should Feel Bad - discuss?

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Your Webcomic is Bad and You Should Feel Bad - discuss?

Postby Fletcher on Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:02 am

So yes, my sig would make apparent that I read the aforementioned blog, but with it covering CRFH, does anyone else, and really, is there any defense for the flaws pointed out within? I've been away, so I've not seen the current fanbase reaction, but seeing as how this is the one I've most known on the list of targets, I wondered how everyone else reacted.
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Postby Jappus on Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:44 am

The reaction was, till now, pretty much nonexistent for CRFH. I've read it, though. (Skip to my P.S. part, if you can, knowing me, already imagine where this is heading)


It is certainly true what the guy said right near the beginning (of his blog), namely, that this blog was mostly intended for himself and his circle of friends. Basically, it is diatribe, plain and simple. And he loves it. For every iota of actual content, there is a ton of ad-hominem attacks (which he's proud of -- just read the first stanza of his tractate about PvP), another ton of cursing and a smattering of Nelson-esque "Ha-ha". A circle-of-friends thing.


Personally, I too, for example, deem Dominic Deegan a bad webcomic, I read it, because its story is like watching two trains speeding against each other, a trainwreck bound to happen. But in his critique, this point is given roughly four sentences. Four actual arguments why something is bad, all in one line, then twenty lines of diatribe, bile and insults. The next day, all you read is then, more bile, with no content anymore.
For every measure of the word, this is a blog of a troll. It is intended to attract traffic and instill discussion and counterattacks of its points, if it actually makes any. I briefly wondered if I should link to it, but then remembered: What was it they said about trolls? So I didn't ... mostly because I was not able to spin it into something constructive, like the "Insult Thread".



So, summed up, it's just like Dominic Deegan, the very thing he seems to despise with passion. The whole thing is a blog like a trainwreck. Of course you watch it, but then, a few minutes into it, you realize that you look at a trainwreck.
If it's a real trainwreck, people start to help (if there's noone else yet, most would). In the case of this blog, people remain just to see how much more diatribe and bile can be summoned by this guy. It is mostly the same feat of entertainment as "Timecube".

Sidenote: I do wonder if there's such a thing as a "Bad Blogs"-Blog. Infinite recursiveness aside, I know this one would probably rank along the top. :D



Ohh, and yeah, as to my stance on the very thing of bad webcomics, I hold it like this: "Nothing is perfect, because much is subjective, and for the same reasons, nothing is wholly bad, because much is subjective." Even if just the proverbial redneck laughed about something, this thing, while it may not appeal to us, because it doesn't fulfill our most basic standards, still cannot be seen as wholly bad, because it served its purpose at least once. It may be bad, but worth diatribe?. And this applies to comics, blogs, movies, etc. pp. all alike.

90% of everything may indeed be crap. So what? Contrary to some opinions, no lives or other things of worth actually depend on it, barring major mental health issues, of course.





As a last sidenote, as to his points, as scarce as they in-between all the intentional diatribe, most of them were raised already, and either dismissed (early atrocious art, use of photoshop, templating, Mari having English as a second langiage, occassional bouts of drama, etc. pp.) or analyzed (the issue of transferring a gag-a-day to a story comic), not only here, but everywhere on the net, since it's a problem more things than just CRFH faces. And that's all I will say about his actual argumentation, because there's not particularly more.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

P.S:
Ohh, and yeah, during every stanza of his current and prior posts, I entertained myself with imagining him raising those arguments against the entire body of the works of Shakespeare, you know "bad" English, shallow characterization, drama, drama, drama, deaths as plot-points, rape as a topic, confusing dialogues, the physiognomie of Shakespeares body and head, etc. pp.
I find that imagining that, and the sudden realization that his arguments work there just as well as against everything else, immensely funny.

I mean, just imagine:
"A little later, he proves himself to be perhaps forty or fifty years old by assuming that young english aristocrats wear Surcoats, Farthingales and look like Henry V. as if he was imagined by someone without any artistic talent. In a few more plays he shows to be moving into territory that will later be conquered by Goethe, but I've had enough of this shit. Let's move on."


[EDIT]
Corrected a minor awkward phrasing
Last edited by Jappus on Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Loweko on Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:00 am

I don't think anybody here noticed, Fletch. Those that did (in my frame of reference, anyway) don't particularly care. There are some valid criticisms in there, but they're lost in a tide of invective that just demonstrates the author desperately wants to be known as the Maddox of Webcomics.

I refer any interested parties to his recent attack on Shortpacked! - particularly David Willis's exemplary response (roughly summarised as "thanks for the pageviews", to which the author got terribly upset that Willis hadn't, er, used his name in the response at all). Then I suggest everyone else continue the ongoing policy of asking "...sorry, who?"

Leave him. Discuss his critiques if you really, really must, but discuss them with merciless politeness - and be aware that anyone coming over from YWIB in the hope of froth will almost certainly not reciprocate.

What nobody should do is get agitated about him. A fanboy-led flamewar is exactly what this guy wants.
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Postby Mad Bomber 80 on Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:45 am

I read quite a few entries of his blog and, to quote one of the great master debaters, "That's all I cans stands. I can't stands no more!"

Quite frankly, I agree with Jappus that he's an attention-seeking troll, pure and simple.

He mistakes diatribe with discourse, rancor with reasoning, and cursing with making a real point.

Seriously, take out the '13-year-old'-level curse words, and his rants would be a third shorter. Of course, then he wouldn't be as 'shocking' and 'edgy' as he appears to think he is... which is probably the point he's trying to make to his circle of friends.

Mainly, I'd have to say, the biggest problem is that he seems to hold his own opinions as the purest of pure facts. "Simple: more Batman. Less drama. Drama is ... terrible. This is not an opinion, it is solid fact."

He mentions (paraphrased) 'cookie-cutter characters', where 'you can switch their dialog around and no one can tell'. You know what, when you willfully want to interpret it in that way, you pretty much are guaranteed to see it like that.

Going back into just the examples he provides? I don't see where the same words would have felt right coming out of a different character's mouth. Of course, those aren't examples he specifically chose to illustrate this point. Because he didn't actually provide any examples for this... hmmm...

It's possible he thinks it's supposed to be satirical, what with his whole "This is a wholly objective blog where I take it upon myself to discuss, at length, these webcomics and the multitude of reasons why they are excruciatingly terrible and are worse than Hitler."

Reading (as much as I could stomach, that is) back through the archives, he 'reviews' comics for which it is blatantly, blindingly obvious that he is not the audience for. In quite a few of his rants he mentions that the "xxxxx" (whatever 'xxxxx' may be) in the comic is "Not my bag."

All right, understandable. Personally, I can't stand those 'American Idol' Reality-TV shoes. I'm not their audience. However, I don't say 'Ban American Idol from the airwaves." I don't form a 'Death to Ryan Seacrest' IRC Channel. I can understand that there are those who find it entertaining.

However, those comics that are "Not his bag"?, he says straight out "Really, don't make a comic about it." And "I don't appreciate the 'xxxxx'. That's why I think it's bad."

Essentially, it boils down to the fact he thinks that everything should appeal to him. And, since he states that his rants are designed to appeal to his simple circle of seven or eight friends, it's fine. However, he belies this claim when he repeatedly 'talks to' all of the non-friends who are now reading his rant because it's being spread through word of mouth (such as here).

To end, because this has already sucked up more of my life than I care for, he compares (in an early rant) someone with a kid who craves attention from "the cool kids" enough to eat bugs when these people ask him to. And I thought for a moment, and realized that this guy is the sort of person who would make a kid who just wanted to hang out with him eat a bug. And then laugh about it as he ditched the kid to go hang out with the other wastes of space in his clique.
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Postby themunck on Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:40 am

Jappus wrote:Personally, I too, for example, deem Dominic Deegan a bad webcomic, I read it, because its story is like watching two trains speeding against each other, a trainwreck bound to happen.


Am I the only person in the world who reads that comic becourse I like it?
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Postby Tangent on Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:56 am

Ah, Fletcher, I see you're doing the trolling for Solomon now.

Nevermind the outright libel of Solomon stating that I gave Maritza "good reviews" in an attempt to get into her pants, it's just the same-old same-old of Solomon, diluted down from his initial works because of his massive hate-on of Mookie. Indeed, his PvP review was so lacking venom that it was like someone defanged Solomon.

And I do enjoy your nonchalant "yes, I read this blog" as if you're trying to sneak this in while retaining your reputation as a Boardie instead of a troll trying to rile things up here. So. How long before your own website goes after Maritza with the whole "Goddess" idiocy?
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Postby TheMackster on Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:00 am

Why is the Internet full of these people?
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Postby bjorn_l on Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:13 am

This is how we wrote in the high school paper when we were 14 years old (and yes, I'm still glad we were allowed to :wink: ). Even trying to prove his critique wrong is to much honour. I like CRFH!!!, I like Sluggy Freelance, and I certainly won't stop reading a comic because someone tells me it's crap. If a comic is crap, people will stop reading it and it will be forgotten.
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Postby Lightice on Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:35 am

TheMackster wrote:Why is the Internet full of these people?


Because being anonymous reveals the hidden jerk in people who are only motivated to politeness by fear of social rejection. Which, I deduct is a rather signifigant number of the population.

This is how we wrote in the high school paper when we were 14 years old


Were you a prodigy? I wasn't in high school at that age.

I certainly won't stop reading a comic because someone tells me it's crap.


Criticism is usually aimed at people who haven't yet seen the work, not those who've been following it for years. That being said, I don't doubt that this particular critic is just as incompetent and/or trollish as everybody says. Perhaps someone should start a blog that criticizes blogs that do webcomic reviews?
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Postby Maritza Campos on Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:53 am

Dude, Fletcher. I was wondering if you'd come around fishing for comments for Fuego Fish. Tsk tsk. You should have covered CRFH yourself in Mary-Sue, instead of begging him to do it. Why didn't you do it yourself? Seriously.

Am I supposed to "cry" over this? Rail my millions of fans against this guy? Why is he different from the rest of the guys that have had blogs like this one, exactly in the same tone? Drunk Webcomic Reviews, for example?

I have no problem with this review. Like Jappus says, there's nothing I haven't heard before. In the same, or worse tone even. I'm really sorry I can't feel so bad about my shitty comic that I stop doing it. :D
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Postby Roadkiller on Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:19 am

Lightice wrote:
This is how we wrote in the high school paper when we were 14 years old


Were you a prodigy? I wasn't in high school at that age.


Actually, I was 14 my freshmen year. Most freshmen are either 15 or are 14 and turn 15 during the school year. Some are 14 through all the year due to summer birthdays (me).

Back to the topic at hand. Here's the answer to it all. He uses the term "circlejerk" more times than I can count. But wait, there are thousands upon thousands of people who disagree with his opinions, and far fewer who agree with them. Who's the circlejerker, then?

So yes, my sig would make apparent that I read the aforementioned blog, but with it covering CRFH, does anyone else, and really, is there any defense for the flaws pointed out within?


His rants are self-defeating. It's full of fallacies and overly zealous opinions. The author apparently looks at a comic and sees something that he doesn't like. Admittedly, I skipped over CRFH the first time I saw it due to the, admittedly, low quality art at the beginning. Said ranter probably saw that and read through it to write his rant. Many of his arguements against the comic involved the very early comics. Since then, the art and story have improved greatly. It seems he missed jokes or things that are meant to be funny and took them seriously such as the hippies. You have to really damn try to miss that, and if you just plain don't get it, then you're likely not going to enjoy any decent webcomics.


Let's dissect his rant because I'm bored and have time.

During the first few comics, the incompetent dullard responsible (one Maritza Campos) shows off the kind of level she'll be abandoning shortly in favour of something worse.


Starting off with a personal insult who has no grounding in reality whatsoever. Congratulations, if I hadn't already done so when I read the rant above this one, I would have lost all respect for him as a critic right there.

If you can ignore the cross-eyed, gibbon-armed scribbles that are supposedly some variety of people,


As I said before, I did pass CRFH the first time because of this. This is a reasonable, but needlessly insulting point.

we can see the kind of amazing story and dialogue that will bore the tears out of everyone for the next eight years.


His insulting opinion again. Obviously CRFH is one of the more popular comics around, so he's got an opinion which is disagreed with by many people. And, of course, he's being ever so insulting with it.

It begins with an explosion! An explosion that isn't shown on panel, off panel, but vaguely referenced. Yes, Campos is actually incapable of writing the word "KABOOM" in big, bold letters at this point.


Apparently, he requires every single event in the comic to be shown. I understood by the third comic exactly what had happened. I would not say that it was "vaguely referenced" so much as "obvious enough not to need to be shown or given elaborate explaination.

She also thinks "destinated" is a word.


Umm, yeah. Second languages aren't always exactly easy. I only speak English with any fluency whatsoever, so getting one word wrong isn't horrible. Especially when your first language is Spanish, a relatively well structured language, and the second language is English, one of most strangely structured languages around.

A little later, she proves herself to be perhaps forty or fifty years old by assuming that college stoners wear peace-sign necklaces, headbands and look like John Lennon if he was drawn by someone without any artistic talent.


I'm just going to copy and paste from earlier in my post: It seems he missed jokes or things that are meant to be funny and took them seriously such as the hippies. You have to really damn try to miss that, and if you just plain don't get it, then you're likely not going to enjoy any decent webcomics.

In a few more strips she shows to be moving into territory that will later be conquered by El Goonish Shive,


This is a joke that appears, what, once? twice? maybe three times? He was really pulling to get that.

Skipping a year ahead shows us that three new characters have been introduced, and it is painfully obvious that they're colour-coded for convenience. Not really our convenience, no. Campos' convenience, because nothing says "twoo wuv" like ensuring the purity of one's race by matching hair colours.


Heh. One hair color relationship worked. One didn't even happen. Then there's Dave and Margaret. Yeah. Moot point.

Dialogue's phrased like no Earthly conversation,


I'm honestly not a good judge here. I, apparently, speak strange ways. Let's just say that I like commas in my speech.

with horrendous bubble and text placement.


True to a point, but, again, it has improved greatly since then. It improved fairly quickly, even.

The font is still the same, and still as irritating...


I didn't even notice what the font looked like until I was three fourths of the way through the archives when I first read it. It didn't bother me afterward, either.

Shitty photoshop filters, anyone? But that's just the art.


The filters came up occasionally, but not really enough to comment on, in my opinion.

The Devil is a recurring character, and possibly the worst portrayal of said incarnation of evil that I have ever seen. Because it's not even all that evil. You see, Campos is incapable of writing sinister dialogue. The Devil speaks like he belongs on an episode of Superfriends, except he talks about souls and useless wank like that. Though I ignored the fact he was a talking cow, I still couldn't feel one iota of menace in his words. The fact of the matter is, taking away the subject in question (souls and the taking thereof), the Devil talks exactly like everyone else. Which is to say, he speaks like a college student. Except he's a cow. This is another of Campos' major failings: being unable to give her characters a proper voice.


I will say that I didn't think of the Devil as being particularly sinisterly voiced there. I thought it fit, however. To me, it seemed that he was just there to get Dave's soul and leave, like it was an errand, not to impress the mortals with his evilness. In fact, through most of CRFH, the Devil seems very nonchalant about what he's doing. That fits how I would see him better that a red skinned, horned, monologuing, completely unoriginal version of the Devil.

This is a flaw... well, more of a grievous lack of talent, really... that many forever-amateur hack writers possess. All the webcomics I listed earlier as being on the same level as CRFH? They do it too. They have a whole cast of characters who talk exactly like each other, and the manner in which they talk is exactly how the webcomic jerk talks. I suppose some people can be baffled and say "But this guy is sarcastic and this guy is wacky!" But no, they're stupid, that's why they're baffled. Anyone who needs to be a particular way all the time (sarcastic, wacky, angry, etc.) in order to have a "voice" has no voice at all. A character's voice is the way that they speak and act at all times, covering a range of emotions, moods and situations. CRFH doesn't have that, and probably never will.


Honestly, at this point, I started to begin to wonder how the hell he reads books. I've never had any of the problems he does with the characters and writing. Now, here, he's not only insulting the writer, but the fanbase and anyone who doesn't have the same issues with the comic that he does.

Anyway, like most webcomics that start off aiming for jokes, CRFH dives into drama as fast as it possibly can. Whereas mere strips ago they were doing something that may resemble humour in a dim light, the loss of Dave's soul is treated with the kind of weepy schlock-sentimentalism that you can expect from atrocious hacks like Campos. Oh no, a running gag has managed to conjure up some evil so great that this guy (who I and the reader know nothing about) is dying! A BLOO BLOO BLOO. Ugh, please. Nobody's going to be giving a shit about Dave kicking the bucket, unless they're so over-emotional they break into tears when the newsreader says "Goodnight".


It seems to me that from the beginning the comic was going to have stories and some drama included in the jokes. It's especially hard to have a joke-a-day comic with consistant characters. For a few strips, yes, the jokes went away. Oh no! And, obviously, people did care that Dave "died," since the only reason he was brought back was outcry from the readers. More over-the-top insults all around.

Also she can't spell "negotiate" but I guess that's a mild step up from inventing words like "destinated". Webcomic jerks of the world, there are dictionaries that are online. Find one and use it. Or better yet, don't drop out of English in the fourth grade, you fucking morons.


Previously addressed.

The Devil - much as I loathe to term him, for who can seriously be afraid of a bipedal cow in a black sheet - is defeated by shotgun after some more mawkish dialogue.


Now, it really depends on his problem here. The fact that the Devil was defeated by a shotgun? It was implied that there was divine intervention involved. That there was divine intevention involved? Yes, it's a bit contrived, but it was an on the spot change to appease the readers.

CRFH is the kind of webcomic you simply can't read, unless you've been tagging along for years like some kind of sad little puppy, or you're as persistent as you are dim.


OH! OH! Look Honey, it's a completely unsupported insult. I wonder if the let you feed it here? Oh, it looks like they don't.

There's just drama, drama, drama everywhere you look. You've got a bunch of utterly two-dimensional characters who operate only as stupid gimmicks spouting out a lot of utterly fucking awful lines about relationships and all that crap. Campos either never watches any TV shows about teen drama, or she's just that fucking bad. I'm going for the latter.


I'm going to degenerate to an insult here for a moment, since I've got no better way to put it: Apparently, the ranter never had any relationships in his teens, since he's had to learn about them by watching shows about teen drama. That out of the way, Maritza's depictions of the relationships are often more true than any teen drama shows.

Like a lot of hacks, she assumes that things happening to a character is equal to characterisation. Everyone gets superpowers, someone turns out to be a werewolf - sorry, werecoyote.


This happened when it was almost entirely without an overarching plot. It was just silliness which didn't go away.

Because that's so fresh and interesting! Wait, no it's not. Even ignoring the fact that coyotes and wolves are so closely related they're capable of interbreeding, it's still fucking stupid as fuck. Your great idea for a big shocking backstory is to make someone a closet furry? Been. Done.


The "werecoyote" was merely a running gag that became concrete. So what? Why coyote? I imagine it seemed absurd. Comparing a wolf to a coyote, and the wolf comes out on top in every way, and everyone knows it. Now, honestly, who cares that they are close enough to breed? They are physically different enough to make the concept of a were-coyote seem silly.

Stuff about Tangent.


You go ahead and deal with this, Tangent. I'm sure you can do far better at it than me.

What does make a deeper character? Well, knowing that character would be nice. Not all the things that happened to them a few hundred strips ago, but who they are. Stuff that makes them seem more human. Try describing any of these characters without referring to things which primarily took place in the webcomic and you'll hit a bit of a stumbling block. You'll find out that they aren't as "deep" as you though. Then take out references to physical appearance, hobbies and relationships and I guarantee you that you will not top twenty words.


There is some truth to this. Some. Now, you should be able to read into who a character is by their actions, hobbies and relationships. One should be able to construct a character that is human without knowing much of their background. Maritza has done this with all of the characters. The possible exception is April, but there's obviously something else going on there.

The best part is that according to Wikipedia, this shit's won awards for this writing. In 2001 it managed to win Best Writing and Best Serial Comic, and in 2003 it won Outstanding Character Development. This would be a travesty... if it wasn't for the fact these are the Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards, which is just an extension of the usual simpering circlejerk that the webcomics "community" is. You never have to say anything good about yourself, simply harp on about how good everyone else is and that praise will be heaped back upon you in turn.


Again, copying and pasting from earlier: He uses the term "circlejerk" more times than I can count. But wait, there are thousands upon thousands of people who disagree with his opinions, and far fewer who agree with them. Who's the circlejerker, then?

To demonstrate how worthless and removed from reality these awards are, let me demonstrate with some more winners. In 2001, Best Female Character went to Monique from Sinfest. A character introduced one year before. Into a gag-strip webcomic that actually is a gag-strip webcomic and not an excuse to have people cry in the rain like CRFH. Where all she did for one year is talk about boys, clothes, shopping and perhaps a few other things. For the purpose of three-panel jokes. That was the best female character that 2001 could produce, apparently.

Still not convinced? Best Reality-Based Comic of that year went to Real Life. Sure, reality-based. Despite having time-travel, giant robots, a supervillain and a variety of other shit, it's won that category again and again. But here's the nail in the coffin, folks. In 2002, Best Comic was judged to be Megatokyo. It also won Best Writing, Best Serial Comic and Best Dramatic Comic. If you won't accept the WCCA as pure shit now, you never will.


I'll let someone else address these, since I read neither.

Back to CRFH and what a gigantic pile of shit it is. Let's cover a few topics simply: Campos can't draw noses (or attractive women). Campos uses too many speech bubbles (and too much retarded dialogue). Campos can't use speech bubbles properly anyway (hello talking cat). Campos thinks a cow shooting lightning is actually intimidating. Campos draws sunglasses as gaping holes into eternity where the eyes should be. Campos loves copying and pasting. A lot. Campos believes using pattern fills is fine.


All of these are either part of Maritza's drawing style, relatively isolated incidences or his unsupported opinions. Moving on.

In fact I could take a trundle through the whole archives and find flaws everywhere I look. I'm sure some of you are whining that flaws don't matter and it's the whole product that I should be looking at, but when all I can see in every fucking strip is flaw after flaw... that is the whole fuckin' product. I've read the vast majority of the archives, only skimming through the boring parts... okay, it's all boring, so I guess I mean the useless shit at the start that nobody cares about. But I have looked through it all, and the idea that people not only read this shit on a daily basis, but actually like it to boot... well, I probably would be more shocked if I didn't know that a lot of people who read webcomics are pretty dumb and easily entertained.


All right, so he's summed up everything he's said right there. Including his supporting arguements. Note the lack of said supporting arguements.

---

Okay, then. I've used my time and boredom up now. Time to go do something actually productive.
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Postby Chade on Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:23 am

I can't decide how to feel about this one. He mocks the comics I find most brillant... VGCats, Sluggy Freelance, El Goonish Shive, CRFH. I mean... Sluggy Freelance? I am constantly in awe of Abrams comedic genius. He also mocks comics I'm rather ambivalant on but freely admit how much people love them, like Ctrl+Alt+Delete and Bob & George.

His choices in comics as well as his ludicrious complaints made me think at first that he was an elaborate comedic troll. On the other hand he mocks Dominic Deegan, which I actually do find detestable, and this seems like a awful lot of work to for a joke.

I'd like to say more about his points and provide some counter points, but I found myself skipping through his posts and reading sentences at random. I'm just far too apathetic to care about his site. I can't even muster up a good anger at it.
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Postby Pseudonym on Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:57 am

I stumbled across this blogpost earlier and was hoping noone else would. But, since a link has been posted here, I ask that you either a) don't bother reading the guy's blog or b) if you do, don't respond to him there. There is nothing that can change his opinion of the comic, assuming he genuinely feels that way about CRFH and isn't just hoping to get a rise out of its fans and if the latter is true, responding will be just what he's hoping for.

I read a bit into the rant when I saw it, but I stopped when I read this:
Also she can't spell "negotiate" but I guess that's a mild step up from inventing words like "destinated". Webcomic jerks of the world, there are dictionaries that are online. Find one and use it. Or better yet, don't drop out of English in the fourth grade, you fucking morons.


Martiza being Mexican has nothing to do with her English skills, apparantly. At this point, I realized that the poster had done absolutely no background reading on the comic or Maritza and probably had only skimmed some of the strips before writing his rant. It was clear after that quote that he was only posting to insult Maritza and the comic, not for any critique but just to get his rocks off.

All in all, he can be safely ignored.
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Postby BinaryWraith on Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:36 am

Roadkiller wrote:
The Devil is a recurring character, and possibly the worst portrayal of said incarnation of evil that I have ever seen. Because it's not even all that evil. You see, Campos is incapable of writing sinister dialogue. The Devil speaks like he belongs on an episode of Superfriends, except he talks about souls and useless wank like that. Though I ignored the fact he was a talking cow, I still couldn't feel one iota of menace in his words. The fact of the matter is, taking away the subject in question (souls and the taking thereof), the Devil talks exactly like everyone else. Which is to say, he speaks like a college student. Except he's a cow. This is another of Campos' major failings: being unable to give her characters a proper voice.


I will say that I didn't think of the Devil as being particularly sinisterly voiced there. I thought it fit, however. To me, it seemed that he was just there to get Dave's soul and leave, like it was an errand, not to impress the mortals with his evilness. In fact, through most of CRFH, the Devil seems very nonchalant about what he's doing. That fits how I would see him better that a red skinned, horned, monologuing, completely unoriginal version of the Devil.



Actually, this is one of the things I've always liked about Maritza's portrayal of Stanny. He's not the gloating malevolent evil of Faust, or the fallen angel that is so often used in recent work, but a common, almost absentminded evil that is more striking for the fact that it is so nonchalant.

Edit : Then again, reading through this blog and Fletcher's stuff, I'd say these guys have been spending too much time over at SomethingAwful, and now can't seem to let go the idea that The Internet Is Serious Business. :roll:
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Postby SPark on Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:55 am

themunck wrote:Am I the only person in the world who reads that comic becourse I like it?


Nope. I find the cheesy plotlines to be highly entertaining and fun and the bad puns are hilarious.



Also, I second Loweko on my initial reaction, and on that being the best reaction to this troll-tastic guy. "Who?" I hadn't heard of him before this, and I doubt I'll remember him after, he seems to be a pretty unremarkable fellow.
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Postby Mad Bomber 80 on Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:06 pm

Personally, I like Dominic Deagan as well. It's up at the top of my Tier 2 Comics. Mainly for the reasons that SPark already espoused.


I realized, a little later, the main problem with this guy. He provides NO counter-examples!

All right, you "hate" these comics? Then provide a list of the ones you "love" so that we can see where these "problems" you're talking about are done right.

You say that there's a problem with how "xxx" (where "xx" is Character Development, how Stanny is written, etc..) is done? Then link to a comic where "xxx" is done right.
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Postby bjorn_l on Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Lightice wrote:
This is how we wrote in the high school paper when we were 14 years old


Were you a prodigy? I wasn't in high school at that age.

My bad, although I was a year early. Here in .nl we have basic schooling from 4-12 yrs of age, then secondary schooling from 12-16/18; if you take the 6 year course you can then move on to university. When I said "high school" I meant the 6 years of secondary schooling, not realizing that people in different countries have different schooling :(
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Postby wacko on Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:28 pm

Roadkiller wrote:Actually, I was 14 my freshmen year. Most freshmen are either 15 or are 14 and turn 15 during the school year. Some are 14 through all the year due to summer birthdays (me).

I was 13 when I began grade 9, and turned 14 a couple of months later.


I like CRFH and enjoy reading it. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't read the comic. End of story. John Solomon is entitled to his opinion and to publish it on his blog, and I am entitled to ignore said opinion.

That said, there's one thing I'd like to clear up:

Roadkiller wrote:And, obviously, people did care that Dave "died," since the only reason he was brought back was outcry from the readers.

Fletcher also made a reference to this in his comment in Solomon's blog. There seems to be a common misconception that Maritza brought Dave back because of an outcry from the readers. However, if I recall correctly, the actual reason Dave was brought back was not because of reader reaction, but because Maritza found a better and more interesting storyline to work with (the whole soul cat concept).
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Postby PsycheDragon_GD on Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:33 pm

Didn't read it, don't intend to. I don't really have the time or inclination to care about other people's opinions about webcomics.
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Postby Dragonlet on Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:06 pm

SPark wrote:
themunck wrote:Am I the only person in the world who reads that comic becourse I like it?


Nope. I find the cheesy plotlines to be highly entertaining and fun and the bad puns are hilarious.



I love it too!
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Postby Jhayne on Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:17 pm

I don't bother with critics in general. I just read what I want and decide if I like it on my own. It doesn't make much difference to me if some critic agrees with me or not.


...I tried, I can't resist saying...

Your critique is bad and you should feel bad!!!

See? Three exclamation points just show how bad your critique is!
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Postby Tangent on Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:53 pm

I have only a couple things to say about this.

First, free advertising.

I mean it. David Willis already posted about this in his Livejournal when he was made fun of. He commented that he sold a couple hundred books because of the advertising from Solomon. Best of all, he never once referred to Solomon by name, which Solomon apparently took offense at.

That's because Solomon is a troll and when you do not talk about him or pay him any attention he gets upset.

Second, I've already commented on Solomon's libelous remarks. And it is libel. I am 99% sure that he can't verify any of that unless he finds some off remark in a forum discussion and runs with it until it's twisted in something more insane than a mobius strip. But hey. I'm getting free advertising out of this as well, because I've had hundreds of eager people scampering over to my website to view my reviews because of the links Solomon has provided. And best of all, I never once linked him or mention him by name on my own site and censor any attempt to link to him on my site's forums. So he gets nothing in return. Oh wait, he gets the satisfaction of knowing he made fun of me, even though I'm not screaming obscenities at him for doing so. Big whopping deal.

Third, I wrote about webcomic criticism at length soon after encountering Solomon's site (when he and his cronies made fun of Jennifer Diane Reitz and Pastel Defender Heliotrope). You can find it here: http://tangent.panel2panel.com/tan-high-06282007.html

Something about that article so pissed him off that soon after he "reviewed" Tangents. But hey, free advertising and all of that, you know. I'm making out like a bandit because of Solomon's little diatribes about me. So if he wants to make me sound like a total ass-kisser and the like? He can go right ahead and do so. All it does is send more traffic my way.

Best of all, he can't resist. Another month down the line he'll be linking me again, trying to piss me off and voicing more and more obscenities and printing more and more libelous remarks in an attempt to get a rise out of me... and I'll get several hundred added hits for the month from him.

So laugh at John Solomon. All he does is send you free traffic and added business from people who actually think for themselves. Sadly, the day he realizes that, he may very well quit. Fortunately, with the likes of Fletcher and others of his ilk out there, there will be another Solomon-wannabe to take his place and continue trolling comics, and sending those comics new readers.
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Postby *~Kitty~* on Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:44 pm

*yawn*

So where is this troll's webcomic that has lasted over 5 years?


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Postby Fletcher on Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:58 pm

Tangent wrote:Ah, Fletcher, I see you're doing the trolling for Solomon now.

I asked what people who still read the comic thought. If I were trolling, I'd aim for further inflammatory remarks. I haven't in a while, and I wondered what the current fanbase's response was.

Maritza Campos wrote:Dude, Fletcher. I was wondering if you'd come around fishing for comments for Fuego Fish. Tsk tsk. You should have covered CRFH yourself in Mary-Sue, instead of begging him to do it. Why didn't you do it yourself? Seriously.

I don't do webcomic reviews. Solomon might, but I just stick to the people behind them (with some minor exceptions). Last I checked, unless I missed some amazing event, you were down-to-earth enough that you didn't need a place there, but if there's anything you'd like to use as a nomination, I can always ask for some simple aid in an article.

I just wanted to see what the response was, and I don't write articles with the guy (as evidenced by little things like his not knowing Maritza spoke English as a second language, and the Dave outcry). Our two blogs are seperate. I remembered this place at my last visit as being in a transitory period and I wondered how new readers and old fans would respond to this sort of thing. I'm not going to give a Tangentian "I'm leaving forever", but I really do think this sort of response over a simple "so what do you guys think" is just absurd, and somewhat justifies my only popping in every few months. (No worries, Rooms/Mutants players, I still watch over you with MAGICAL GM POWERS.)

Also, spotting the livejournal link on the first page, Maritza: hope your daughter's fine after the TV thing, and why so worried about the hurricane? You seem to come out relatively unscathed after those, if I recall. (Sorry to stick this in here, but hey, might as well cover all my bases in one go while I'm around.)

also also, since it showed up when I hit "preview" - Kitty, admittedly it's not a perfect critique, but since when must one be a chef/artist/author to say a meal/painting/novel is bad? I hate to pull a Jappus, but that's the sort of logical fallacy that leads to the whole circlejerk mentality in some webcomic communes: "what do you think of me?" with nobody offering critique for fear of hurt feelings and hostility in return, because only webcomic artists can talk about webcomics. I'm willing to bet if, say, Gabe and Tycho suddenly pulled up with their comic and went "We agree wholeheartedly", you'd just use another argument.

Sorry. That sort of thing just bothers me. Didn't mean to rant.
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Postby s1 on Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:59 pm

Maybe the best we can do is go to post there that, thanks to him, we discovered new comics to read, the ones criticed by him.
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