Lateral thinking in real life [Puzzle?]

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Postby Shatteredtower on Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:20 am

... as long as you think a chess tournament has anything to do with "real life." Anyway, here's your puzzle:<P> I was directing a chess tournament earlier this week, and watched a player move a pawn one space forward to the end of the board, promoting it to a queen. Although neither king was in check at the time and the square the pawn had advanced to was not occupied at the time of the move, I stopped the clocks and have the player's move taken back, as it was illegal.<P> Why?<P> Sorry, folks, I know it's a dull problem, but I'm pretty sure it's an original one. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby Anh Minh on Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:27 am

Did the move put one of the kings in check?<P>Albatross-Minh
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Postby screamingprincess on Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shatteredtower:
<B>... as long as you think a chess tournament has anything to do with "real life." Anyway, here's your puzzle:<P> I was directing a chess tournament earlier this week, and watched a player move a pawn one space forward to the end of the board, promoting it to a queen. Although neither king was in check at the time and the square the pawn had advanced to was not occupied at the time of the move, I stopped the clocks and have the player's move taken back, as it was illegal.<P> Why?<P> Sorry, folks, I know it's a dull problem, but I'm pretty sure it's an original one. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did the move the pawn to an empty space on their end of the board? <P>Sorry if it is a stupid idea, but I haven't played Chess in years... And I only played a few times. <P><P>------------------
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anh Minh:
<B>Did the move put one of the kings in check?<P>Albatross-Minh</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No. I thought I'd addressed this in my wording, but I see that I did not. No, no king was in check either prior to that move or after it was made.<P> Sorry about that.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by screamingprincess:
<B> Did the move the pawn to an empty space on their end of the board? <P>Sorry if it is a stupid idea, but I haven't played Chess in years... And I only played a few times.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No worries - the player made an illegal move, so any guess as to what it was is not a stupid question. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P> But no, the pawn did not move backwards at any time during the game.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Shatteredtower (edited 10-27-2001).]
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Postby Dryga_Yes on Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:03 am

He had already moved another piece/already touched another piece?<P>Was it not his turn?
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anh Minh:
<B>Was it his turn to move?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cam_Carby:
<B>Was he forced to take another piece?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragon Fogel:
<B>Did the pawn move diagonally to the last rank without making a capture?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No, not diagonally. It advanced one square vertically, as a standard move.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nrg Spoon:
<B> Did he move the opponent's pawn by mistake?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No, it was his pawn. Sorry, I should have specified that in the problem.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally postd by Dryga_Yes:
<B>He had already moved another piece/already touched another piece?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No - this was the only piece he'd touched or moved this turn.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally postd by Dryga_Yes:
<B>Was it not his turn?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Er, I'm not sure whether to answer that in the affirmative or the negative, so let me just answer that it was his turn.
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Postby Anh Minh on Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:55 am

Was it his turn to move?<P>Albatross-Minh
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Postby Jaxartes on Sat Oct 27, 2001 4:21 am

Did the player still have his original queen (I'm afraid I don't know whether that'd be an issue or not).
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sat Oct 27, 2001 5:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaxartes:
<B>Did the player still have his original queen (I'm afraid I don't know whether that'd be an issue or not).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No, polygamy is no longer forbidden in chess. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> You can have more than one queen on each side. The classic example is Alekhine's five-queen game (three on one side, two on the other), though he was known to fabricate such games from the notes of games he did play.
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Postby RJ Shep on Sat Oct 27, 2001 6:25 am

I don't know what the clocks are for- did he run out of time for the move?
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sat Oct 27, 2001 6:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RJ Shep:
<B>I don't know what the clocks are for- did he run out of time for the move?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No, he still has time.<P> Clocks are to keep players from taking too long for a game (after some 19th century players, like Louis Paulsen, took over two hours for some moves). Punching one clock starts the other, to keep it fair.
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Postby Carn_Carby on Sat Oct 27, 2001 8:53 am

Was he forced to take another piece?<P>KN
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Postby Dragon Fogel on Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:50 am

Did the pawn move diagonally to the last rank without making a capture?
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Postby Nrg Spoon on Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:28 am

Did he move the opponent's pawn by mistake?
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Postby GrimMalady on Sun Oct 28, 2001 1:14 am

Would it have caused a stalemate? I don't know much about the Rules regarding stalemate... so that's my guess. Yup, yup.<P>------------------
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Oct 28, 2001 2:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anh Minh:
<B>Waz it one on one, with the normal rules of chess applied?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Yes, it was a game between two players, conducted under the normal rules of chess. But this move broke one.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Oct 28, 2001 2:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GrimMalady:
<B>Would it have caused a stalemate? I don't know much about the Rules regarding stalemate... so that's my guess. Yup, yup.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> No, and creating stalemate wouldn't have been an illegal move. (Good thing for Frank Marshall too - he swindled so many players out of wins into draws by stalemate that the term "swindle" became synonymous with his name in chess. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">)<P> I will throw in a free answer - the player who made the move was not in stalemate when he made it. He could make legal moves, but he did not.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Asha:
<B>What's a sealed move?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> When a chess game had to be adjourned to a later period, usually after several hours of play, the player whose move it was would be given a slip of paper onto which he would write down his next move - without making it on the board.<P> The tournament director (TD) would then stop both players' clocks and seal the move within an envelope. On the face of this envelope, he would record the time on each players' clock and the position as it existed before the sealed move. He would then have both players sign the envelope, and sign it himself.<P> (I am unable to remember if a complete list of moves is included in the envelope.)<P> When the game is resumed, the TD sets the clocks to the times listed on the envelope, sets up the position, opens the envelope, and makes the listed move, then starts the other player's clock.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boston Crab Cake:
<B>Which end of the board did he move the pawn to? It might've been asked already, I'm not sure.<P>Coz y'know, if he moved it to the wrong end, duh.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Well, to make answering this easier, I'm going to include a diagram:<P>---a-b-c-d-e--f-g--h
8 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
7 |_|_|_|_|P|_|_|_|
6 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
5 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
4 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
3 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
2 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
1 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|<P> (Well, that was frustrating - how does one create a blank space in these entries? If I leave one in my typing, the post refills it.)<P> Let the diagram above represent a chess board, with each lower-case letter and number serving as grid coordinates representing a single square. Let "P" be a White pawn on the square e7. (Normally I represent Black pawns with "P" and White ones with ":", but let's keep this simple, shall we? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">)<P> White pawns start the game on the file of squares from a2-h2, so they move towards the squares a8-h8 (pawns cannot move backwards). <P> The move made in the game was from e7 to e8, the legal direction for a pawn move.<P> Now, what was illegal about the move itself?<P> I hope this diagram makes things clearer. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/redface.gif"> <p>[This message has been edited by Shatteredtower (edited 10-28-2001).]
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Postby Anh Minh on Sun Oct 28, 2001 5:50 am

Would it have been legal to promote P to knight?<P>Albatross-Minh
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Oct 28, 2001 5:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anh Minh:
<B>Would it have been legal to promote P to knight?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Yes - but I'll tell you that it's irrelevant to the solution to this puzzle. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby Stig Hemmer on Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:00 am

Was the move supposed to have been a sealed move?<P>------------------
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Postby Josh Phillips on Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:04 am

Is a knowledge of chess required to correctly guess the solution?<P>JOSH.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stig Hemmer:
<B>Was the move supposed to have been a sealed move?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Interesting question, but the answer is no. It wouldn't have been an illegal move as such, if that had been the case. (The only penalty would be that the other player would be able to analyse with knowledge of the sealed move.)<P> And adjournments (with sealed moves) are hardly ever seen anymore, incidentally. Not in standard club play in Canada, to be sure. No great loss to weak players like myself, but it affects the play of some masters.<P>
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