He's certainly a gentleman

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Postby mykroft on Sat Sep 29, 2001 1:52 am

The Arm Thing: <P> Ladies-Don't expect it, if you find a guy that does it, you've gt one who was trained in the old-fashioned school of Gentleman-hood. So don't bitch at him for holding doors et al, it's all part of the package.<P> Guys-If you don't, try it sometimes, it really does hint of 'doing something special'<P><P>------------------
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Postby Wapiko on Sat Sep 29, 2001 3:16 am

I just think it is very nice to see Ryan with Deirdre on his arm. I believe it to be a very sweet, polite gesture for a man to guide a woman by holding her hand in the crook of his arm.<P>I personally only know two men who do so automatically. They seemed to do so without even thinking about the gesture, which made it all the more delightful.<P>Wapiko-chan<P>------------------
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Postby Larry-Boy on Sat Sep 29, 2001 3:57 am

Um, guys <I>don't</I> do that? wow. My mommy and daddy taught me to opens doors and stuff like that. say "yes ma'am", and "yes sir". your parents didn't? you guys really missed out, man. <P>------------------
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Postby John Campbell on Sat Sep 29, 2001 4:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><i>Originally posted by Friggin' Cornflakes:</i>
It's a conflict paradigm. Sure, one could be chivalrous to gain favor of his lady... but then, whhhhh-tsssssh!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's like saying that you could hug her to gain her favor, but then you're whipped. You ever had a cute girl on your arm? It's an experience worth having in and of itself, regardless of any "chivalrous" implications.<P>(And, yeah, I do that... and hold doors, and assist with luggage... and, y'know, in 26 years, no one has ever "bitched" at me for it?)
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Postby The Incredible Hatboy on Sat Sep 29, 2001 5:25 am

Not to all guys who haven't figured it out: Being chivalrous is NOT the same as being chauvanist. Offering a girl one's arm, when one has at least *some* grounds to do so (roughly at the beginning of the going-steady stage, or after a particularly successful date), is a *very* smart move. Holding doors is also usually a good idea, but carrying luggage and sometimes door-holding will make the lady in question think that you think she's weak and incapable of hauling her own damn bags or opening her own flippin' door. This is generally a Bad Thing.<P>However, the arm-offering is almost always a good idea, provided that you've got Positive History with the girl. It gets even better (assuming you're with the appropriate sort of girl) when you can actually go into some depth about the "real" way to offer one's arm - the way it was done in the Renaissance and earlier.<P>(For the record, the gentleman holds his arm six inches to a foot from his body, lower arm pointing straight ahead, hand straight and fingers outstretched. The lady places her hand flat atop his, usually at an angle [fingers pointing slightly toward his body]. Should she wish to show disdain for the gentleman, she lifts her hand ever so slightly above his; if she wishes to show affection, she curls her fingers around so that their tips touch his palm.)<P>------------------
Fragmented sentance?<P>Ryan + Diedre=Good!
Joe + Ceilidh=Good!
Cecil + Alison=Good!
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Postby The Incredible Hatboy on Sat Sep 29, 2001 5:27 am

>>Present day.............
...........Present Time!<<<P>Just saw the third tape. Kinda disappointed; it's gone from bizzare and fascinating to mostly just bizzare. Also, the pseudo-science is *really* breaking down, and the mysticism isn't enough to replace it, since it insists on trying ot be pseudo-scientific instead of mystical.
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Postby chrisracer on Sat Sep 29, 2001 6:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slithy Tove:
<B> Read as: "Listen up, all you guys out there!"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
bleh to you too!
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Postby karasuhebi on Sat Sep 29, 2001 8:52 am

Ehn, I like doing chivalry. It's buried somewhere in my blood. However, I've dated and tried to date some very violently independent women in my time. One girl actually used to get upset with me when I would hold the door, standing there and waiting until I went through and closed it. She always had such a sour look on her face. I think I stuck my tongue out at her a couple times when that happened.<P>Did I mention that besides being chivalrous, I am occassionally very silly in my flirtatious styles?<P>------------------
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Postby Slithy Tove on Sat Sep 29, 2001 10:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wapiko:
<B>I believe it to be a very sweet, polite gesture for a man to guide a woman by holding her hand in the crook of his arm.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Read as: "Listen up, all you guys out there!"
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Postby David Adrian on Sat Sep 29, 2001 10:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mykroft:
<B>The Arm Thing: <P> Ladies-Don't expect it, if you find a guy that does it, you've gt one who was trained in the old-fashioned school of Gentleman-hood. So don't bitch at him for holding doors et al, it's all part of the package.<P> Guys-If you don't, try it sometimes, it really does hint of 'doing something special'<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aye to all of it, Mycroft. Having had old-fashioned manners drilled into me by parents who were DEAD SERIOUS about it, and then reinforced by Afrikaaner teachers who may as well have been nuns, I have to actively suppress such reactions. When I don't (which is basically anytime I'm with a woman who won't take it the wrong way), the payoff is well worth all the rulers across the knuckles. I've run across nothing, I repeat NOTHING else that will make a woman feel so special as old-fashioned manners. (I'm sure the classic 'four words' - "will you marry me" - would be more effective, but I've never gotten to that point. No basis for comparison.) So think about it, guys. The world could face a lot worse than a return to civility...<P>
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Postby Friggin' Cornflakes on Sat Sep 29, 2001 10:55 am

One semi-word for any woman who expects to be offered a man's arm:<P>Whhhhh-tssssssh!<P>It's a conflict paradigm. Sure, one could be chivalrous to gain favor of his lady... but then, whhhhh-tsssssh!
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Postby Sterling on Sat Sep 29, 2001 10:56 am

Everything about their pose in that last panel comes across as cute. Especially the expression on Ryan's face. To me that says:<P>"Yes, I am with a cute girl. If you comment on this, or how odd it is, or wonder why she's here, or ask any questions that might disturb or upset her, your heart will shortly exit through the back of your rib cage. Good day."<P>(Oh, and cornflakes, I'd rather be chivalrous than in the doghouse, personally. In fact, I rather enjoy acting that way. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/tongue.gif"> )<P>------------------
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Present day.............
...........Present Time!<p>[This message has been edited by Sterling (edited 09-29-2001).]
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Postby Wildmartin on Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:13 am

One of the advantages of being raised a Southerner is that I was taught from childhood to do all of the things that befit a gentleman. However, I am always shocked at how suprised strangers are when I open a door for them. I have actually been told that I was rude for assuming that someone couldn't open their own door. I didn't really think that, I was just trying to be polite. *shrugs* Oh well.<P>------------------
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Postby Sterling on Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:31 am

The door thing:<P>I hold doors for everyone, not just ladies. Though I am more inclined to hold doors for ladies than guys if I'm really in a rush, or wait to hold doors for them. From what I've seen around campus, practically everyone does the same thing.<P><P>------------------
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Sep 30, 2001 6:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Incredible Hatboy:
<B>Not to all guys who haven't figured it out: Being chivalrous is NOT the same as being chauvanist. Offering a girl one's arm, when one has at least *some* grounds to do so (roughly at the beginning of the going-steady stage, or after a particularly successful date), is a *very* smart move. Holding doors is also usually a good idea, but carrying luggage and sometimes door-holding will make the lady in question think that you think she's weak and incapable of hauling her own damn bags or opening her own flippin' door. This is generally a Bad Thing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> The thing is that there is a difference between offering an arm and holding a door for someone else - and it comes down to the offer, really.<P> "May I get that for you?" I find, goes a long way towards showing respect, which is the true core of civil behaviour. If you don't recognize another person's choice in the matter of getting their own door, you are being disrespectful, whether or not you intend to be.<P> (Likewise, it is also disrespectful to leave someone who has held a door so that it would not close in your face holding said door - especially when a crowd walks through that door, none of them supporting it and thereby leaving the holder with the choice of either waiting for the entire crowd to pass through or letting it slam in someone's face.)<P> Ultimately, choice is an aspect of respect and courtesy that is all too often ignored in most forms of etiquette. But the fact is that if an offer cannot be declined, it is not an offer of courtesy or hospitality, but rather an act of aggression.<P> (There are places you can't refuse a drink offered to you, regardless of your reasons. Believe me, I've been there - and I am not "swallowing" my pride just to appease some people at the risk of repeating family history, feeding my own addictive nature, and winding up needing liver surgery again.)<P> Hmm, better stop here before I get too carried away by the subject. My apologies for running on so long.
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Postby Jen Aside on Sun Sep 30, 2001 7:23 am

For all the "progressiveness" of feminism, it DOES seem that it came to "Treat everyone like garbage," huh? I mean, if someone wants to do something nice, why look at it so pessimistically, like they have some ulterior motive or feel of superiority over me for holding open a stupid door?<P>I never understood the whole thing about insisting that guys put the toilet seat down, either. Even in the girls' dormitory, the shared bathrooms (which guys are not allowed to use) would have the seats left up to show that the toilet's been cleaned.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jen Aside:
<B> I never understood the whole thing about insisting that guys put the toilet seat down, either. Even in the girls' dormitory, the shared bathrooms (which guys are not allowed to use) would have the seats left up to show that the toilet's been cleaned.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> It has to do with the number of women who, over the years, have assumed that the seat would be left down because they never lift it, resulting in them inevitably forgetting to check one night in the dark before taking a seat and falling in.<P> Never mind that I've known very few guys who didn't either turn on the light or check the seat before using the toilet as a urinal. (Incidentally, forgetting to lift the seat before urinating will result in fewer complaints about leaving the seat up. It may also result in the end of your relationship with the previously complaining party, of course.) There is nothing rational about this point of contention - it is merely one more place in which Mr. Heinlein's observation that there is no benefit to being right when arguing with a loved one sums matters up succintly.<P> Well, more succintly than I do. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/redface.gif">
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Postby Q99 on Sun Sep 30, 2001 10:52 am

This conversation strikes me as odd , because I've never encountered it offline , to be honest. <P>I live right next to DC (so pretty much , North , not south) , and I hold the door for other people on a very regular basis. I also see other people do the same thing. No one seems to think anything of it on either side.
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Postby Rogue Princess on Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:05 am

I happen to be one of those old-fashioned types who really enjoys having a guy treat her like a "lady". At the same time, here at college, everything is so much more laid back that people don't tend to think about it much. Case in point: My boyfriend's best friend came and visited us today from UCLA. Now, my boyfriend is a perfect gentleman, but Christopher was doing things like holding doors and letting all the ladies through first. He said at one point "God, Mike, you are so not a gentleman!" The funny thing was, I don't tend to think about it or get offended when he doesn't hold the door, but when he does, I definitely notice and it makes me feel very nice. OK, I'm rambling now. Back to homework.
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Postby Dandin on Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:00 am

Being a gentlemen is also in my blood. Probably because my mom had taught me at a young age. I personally think chivalry is a very honorable way for a man to act and that doesn't make you whipped. I also open doors for everyone, not just ladies. I always liked Ryan, there's nothing wrong with a computer geek or a gentlemen (At least, that's what I tell myself...j/k <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> I just wish I had a girlfriend *sigh*<P>Dandin<P>------------------
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Postby Fool on Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:38 am

I offer my arm to my grandmother and great-aunts when I'm walking with them and I hold the door for everyone.<P>*shrug*<P>That's just the way I was programmed.
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Postby Q99 on Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:42 am

I didn't know Coota lived near me either. Groova.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dandin:
<B>I personally think chivalry is a very honorable way for a man to </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I personally think chivalry (and it's non-european counterparts) is a very honorable way for <I>anyone</I> act , and should extend to all sexes.<P>If you have a chance to hold a door for someone , why not do it? If you're not in a hurry , let others go first. If you're strong (not meaning just physically) , use your strength to help others. Sex shouldn't figure in to it at all.<P>
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Postby Wapiko on Mon Oct 01, 2001 8:04 am

Goodness! I had not expected such reactions to my message. I think I need to apologize to everyone who thought I was saying there <I>aren't</I> many gentlepeople or chivalric people out there today. There are. I see them out there everyday. People who stand up and offer their seats on the Metro to others, who hold open doors, who are willing to go out of their way to guide a lost soul to their destination. Heck, I do all three of these things myself.<P>I also was not trying to hint that men should do that more often. Or anyone, for that matter.<P>I had really just meant to say that the hand-to-arm gesture is not really seen much anymore. People tend to go for the hand-in-hand (which is also sweet, but far less noticeable and sometimes can be misunderstood) or the arms-around-each-other (which is harder to walk around with). As I has originally said, I know of only two men who do so automatically with women who are with them (I have never officially dated or "gone out" with either of them, but they would offer their arm anyway, simply because I am a single female companion in their company).<P>I guess it is an old-fashioned gesture, but I'm sort of an old-fashioned type of person. To me, when the guy takes the girl's hand upon his arm, he is saying "you are the guide, and I will follow, but I will also protect the hand that I hold." Weird, I guess, but I think it's a very comforting thing for a girl to know.<P>I am sorry for any of you out there that have ever been hazed for being polite, holding open doors, helping people with luggage, or anything else that I consider simple politeness. But I must say I am glad to know so many who carry genteel traits.<P>Wapiko-chan<P><I>(And I didn't know that Coota and Q99 lived near me either!)</I> <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby David Adrian on Mon Oct 01, 2001 10:21 am

Milady Wapiko -<P>You are absolutely correct: a gentleman offering a lady his arm is a gesture as outdated as that same gentleman wearing a top hat as part of his evening ensamble. Nonetheless, I (and, judging from what I've read on this thread, several others who post here) do still use that gesture. To me, offering a lady my arm is the nonverbal equivalent of addressing her as "My Princess" (or "My Queen", as may be appropriate). I do not do so casually, nor under circumstances where I feel such an action would be inappropriate. But I must say this: every time I have done so, the lady enjoyed the attention greatly. In each case, she was made happy by a consideration that anyone could have bestowed upon her, but almost no one ever does. As I stated in my earlier post, the joy of having made someone I cared for happy was more than adequate recompanse for the... discomforts of acquiring manners.<P>And as far as being hazed for displaying manners goes, I regard it as of little importance. The sort of cretin who would heckle civilized behavior carries no freight with me; nor should he (or she) with anyone. The most appropriate response to such a person is the 'cut direct' - showing these people by your actions that you regard them as less important than the air they befouled with their wagging jaws is probably the most painful thing you can do to them. And one of the most satisfying, as well...
<p>[This message has been edited by David Adrian (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Postby Coota on Mon Oct 01, 2001 11:08 am

I didn't know you lived by me, Q.<P>------------------
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