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Postby bunnyThor on Sun Aug 19, 2001 10:53 am

In order to properly speculate on what Joe may do or say in Tuesday's strip, it would help if we were all on the same page--that page being the following:<P><A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010321.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010321.html</A><P>From this strip we can draw three conclusions--
(1) Joe is strongly aroused by Ceilidh.
(2) Joe is mentally unsure if acting on that arousal is wise.
(3) Joe strongly values his friendship with Ceilidh, so much so that he is willing to drive her away and not talk to her to preserve it.
(4) Alison giving Joe relationship advice is like the blind leading blind.<P>So Joe wants to stop it from going to far and from getting out of control, or he fears that what happened with him and Phoebe will happen again. But wait! From everything that we the reader have been told, Joe and Phoebe didn't get into a relationship that broke up the friendship. Phoebe started going with Old Todd and Joe and Phoebe's relationship simply evaporated. So maybe Joe lied to us (and Ceilidh) when he told us about this the first time? After all in the strip above, Alison claims that losing a friendship with a relationship is "exactly" what Joe did to Phoebe--mind you, not what Phoebe did to Joe, but what Joe did to Phoebe. Joe doesn't dispute this.<P>But wait again! In today's strip, Joe says that he hasn't ever kissed a girl--or at least not "as such". What kind of relationship <I>could</I> he have had with Phoebe that transcended friendship, but did not included kissing? (I can think of ways that might happen, but they involve hancuffs and ballgags, and I doubt Josh is going in that direction.)<P>Ideally, for both Ceilidh and the readers' sakes Joe will very carefully and sensitively let Ceilidh know what he is afraid of, and will explain what *really* happened back in Grade 9.<P>I'd like to close with admiration of Joe's uncanny ability to keep his gaze on her face rather than 20 degrees lower.
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Postby gwalla on Mon Aug 20, 2001 12:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davey3000:
<B>Hmmm, interesting points KAH - I wonder what he actually means when he says he hasn't kissed a girl "as such". It does seem quite possible that he has had a relationship of some kind before, that he's just managed to keep quiet about.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm pretty sure it just means "not in the way you mean". Technically he's kissed a girl because he's kissed his mom (I would assume), but he hasn't actually <I>kissed a girl</I>, if you know what I mean.<P>------------------
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Postby JPSloan on Mon Aug 20, 2001 1:55 am

I understood the scenario to be that Joe moved to slow with Phoebe, and that scotched the friendship... thanks to Todd who Phoebe hoped would flush Joe out of his inertia.<P>The little moves so far in this arc have been pushing Joe out of his shell quicker than anything else has.<P>He's going to grow up, I think, and come out and take a leap of faith. He's going to move himself into the relationship (or try to)... but it's going to look like too little, because of Ceilidh's extreme tactics.<P>Actually, I think they're going to calm down, she's going to get dressed, and they'll end up letting this be a secret between them... and they'll move forward more slowly.<P>Guess I have faith in these two.
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Postby K A H on Mon Aug 20, 2001 2:34 am

The idea that Phoebe started dating Todd in the hopes that Joe would start moving more quickly is an interesting one, but remember that Ryan said Todd and Phoebe became an item (of a sort) at around the same time as Alan and Hel
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Postby K A H on Mon Aug 20, 2001 5:58 am

I'm sure I'm getting this entirely wrong, but after having perused those strips and the strips for a few days on either side, here's my take on things.<P>Joe told Ceilidh in "The Confession" that he had wanted to be more than friends with Phoebe, and although he told her that they were "just friends", I notice that in his conversation with Deirdre back in October, when she asks him if he is still chasing after Phoebe, he answers that he has never regretted anything more.<P>Add in Alison's comment that Joe is wary of getting into a relationship with Ceilidh that, should it fail, will take the friendship down with it, because that's what happened with him and Phoebe, and his exchange with Phoebe after the second election storyline, and as far as I can tell, the truth is that Joe and Phoebe were involved - to a point.<P>It's possible that they were involved but they were sufficiently low-key about it that no-one realised what was going on between them (although Ryan points out that everyone suspected there was something going on between them). But when Joe became fixated on Hel
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Postby davey3000 on Mon Aug 20, 2001 6:19 am

Hmmm, interesting points KAH - I wonder what he actually means when he says he hasn't kissed a girl "as such". It does seem quite possible that he has had a relationship of some kind before, that he's just managed to keep quiet about.<P>Personally, I thought for a while that it might have been with Deirdre - and when she went out with Ryan, it seemed such a nice parallel given that they both used to fancy Phoebe. But I don't think that's right now - there haven't been enough hints in that direction really.<P>I wonder whether Joe will explain what his message to Phoebe was in the next few strips - that might be interesting...<P>---
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Postby Anh Minh on Mon Aug 20, 2001 9:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davey3000:
<B>Hmmm, interesting points KAH - I wonder what he actually means when he says he hasn't kissed a girl "as such".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe he's kissed Phoebe, who is actually a crossdresser? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/eek.gif"><P>Anh Minh
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Postby Wildmartin on Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:40 am

Despite my love of verbosity, I'm too tired to disect the small doctoral dissertations in this thread <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> and will constrain myself to the simplicity of the "as such" remark.<P>Something ya'll may be overlooking in Joe's remark is that he <B><I>has</I></B>, in fact, kissed a girl (possibly Feebs?) but not "as such"--i.e. He hasn't ever been in the position to kiss a nearly naked girl. His former kiss(es) could have just been limited to a quick peck on the lips and not the...more involved type of kissing that Ceilidh is refering to.<P>Of course, as always, I could be totally and utterly missing the mark here. Tell me what you think.<P>------------------
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Postby Josh Phillips on Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bunnyThor:
<B>But wait! From everything that we the reader have been told, Joe and Phoebe didn't get into a relationship that broke up the friendship. Phoebe started going with Old Todd and Joe and Phoebe's relationship simply evaporated.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010418.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010418.html</A> <P>I'll argue that it did more than just "evaporate."<P>JOSH.<P>
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Postby Ursine on Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:18 am

Josh, I swear to God, I have ***never*** understood that exchange. Especially the Helene angle. <P>My best guess was:
JOE: Yeah, I did care for you back then. But you made it clear that my ass didn't matter, and went after Todd.
PHOEBE: So you didn't have the balls to say "Forget Todd, I'm interested in you?" You didn't seem all that interested in me as in mooning after Helene!<P>Am I close?<P>
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Postby Stig Hemmer on Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B>I'll argue that it did more than just "evaporate."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bah. What do <I>you</I> know?<P>------------------
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Postby bunnyThor on Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ursine:
<B>Josh, I swear to God, I have ***never*** understood that exchange. Especially the Helene angle. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you accept the premise that Joe through ommission or misdirection did not give us the whole truth when he told the Grade 9 story, then it becomes slightly more explicable, but it's also very clear that these two have two very different memories of the Grade 9 events, and neither of them seem willing to give an inch.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My best guess was:
JOE: Yeah, I did care for you back then. But you made it clear that my ass didn't matter, and went after Todd.
PHOEBE: So you didn't have the balls to say "Forget Todd, I'm interested in you?" You didn't seem all that interested in me as in mooning after Helene!<P>Am I close?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hopefully, we'll find out this week.<P>
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Postby Wyvern on Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:20 am

[[(4) Alison giving Joe relationship advice is like the blind leading blind.]]<P>Not necessarily. Having no relationship is better than being in a bad one. I'm not in a relationship myself, but that doesn't mean I don't know a dysfunctional one when I see it.<P>[[Add in Alison's comment that Joe is wary of getting into a relationship with Ceilidh that, should it fail, will take the friendship down with it, because that's what happened with him and Phoebe,]]<P>Ah, but let's take a look at exactly what Alison says.<P>Joe: "But she's my best friend. I refuse to ruin that with a relationship."
Alison: "Because you did *exactly* that to your best friend in grade 9! You don't want Ceilidh to end up like *Phoebe*."<P>So what does Alison mean by "exactly that". Referring to the previous panel, she means ruining a relationship -- but not necessarily in the same way. You've interpreted "You don't want Ceilidh to end up like Phoebe" to mean "I see, you're afraid of moving too fast with Ceilidh and losing her like you lost Phoebe."<P>But consider the following alternative interpretation: "If you don't want Ceilidh to end up like Phoebe, you'd better stop sitting on your hands and *do* something about your feelings for her!" In other words, his mistake with Phoebe might have been *not* acting.<P>OTOH, 2:148 shows that Joe at least *told* Phoebe how he felt about her at some point. So I may be way off the mark.<P>[[I'm pretty sure it just means "not in the way you mean". Technically he's kissed a girl becaus he's kissed his mom (I would assume), but he hasn't actually kissed a girl, if you know what I mean.]]<P>That's exactly how I read it too. I've kissed girls other than my mom (several on the cheek, one or two on the forehead, and at least one on the nose), but I've never kissed a girl *as such* either.<P>[[Which isn't to say it's not an interesting angle that Phoebe was frustrated because Joe
wanted to take things slowly. Perhaps, then, Ceilidh moving so quickly is causing yet more nasty flashbacks to whatever there was between Joe and Phoebe,]]<P>Joe's statement to Alison suggests just the opposite. If he'd screwed up his relationship with Phoebe by moving too slowly, he wouldn't be so worried about moving too quickly with Ceilidh. A more likely scenario is that, like Ryan, Joe told Phoebe how he felt about her and got turned down cold because she was more interested in Todd. Now (going by 2:148) she feels guilty and is taking it out on Joe because she's unwilling to come to terms with her mistake.<P>Wyvern<P>------------------
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."<P> - William Shakespeare, "Hamlet"<p>[This message has been edited by Wyvern (edited 08-21-2001).]
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Postby K A H on Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wyvern:
<B>Joe's statement to Alison suggests just the opposite. If he'd screwed up his relationship with Phoebe by moving too slowly, he wouldn't be so worried about moving too quickly with Ceilidh. A more likely scenario is that, like Ryan, Joe told Phoebe how he felt about her and got turned down cold because she was more interested in Todd. Now (going by 2:148) she feels guilty and is taking it out on Joe because she's unwilling to come to terms with her mistake.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>All points well made; my only quibble is that I don't know if this fits with the fact Phoebe also knew about Joe's feelings for Hel
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