Grudge

Canadian teenagers jus' kickin' it 24/7.

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Postby elmo on Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:57 am

The only real grudge I have with this comic
is the lack of situation resolution.
Todays comic jumps to final exams when
we where previously enthralled with a
fight between Allison and Ian.
My question... is that it? is that the only
thing that was important during the whole
party bit? what were the other characters
doing, just being zombie bystanders?
and what of Ghada? why is there so much
animosity between her an Joe?<P>The strange bit is this is actually pretty
complete in comparison to operation cheer up
phoebe. we never did get to find out what
happened to the signed year book, if she
went to the going away party, and if she is
feeling any better.<P>It's gone from decent suspensefull twistiness
to herky-jerky randomness without plot
resolution.<P>I like your comic, I like the art, and sorry
to be complaining over something that is
free. please look on this as constructive
criticism, and not some mindless rant or
flame.<P> -Elmo<p>[This message has been edited by elmo (edited 07-03-2001).]
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Postby Dent on Tue Jul 03, 2001 9:21 am

Well, I suppose I should wait for Josh's reply before I chip in...<P>(Big long post deleted, because I decided that I actually *am* going to wait for the authour's reply)<P>...but I will say that I agree with your point, and you were remarkably tactful in presenting it. Well said.<P>[This message has been edited by Dent (edited 07-03-2001).]
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Postby Josh Phillips on Tue Jul 03, 2001 9:26 am

Of course, I appreciate the criticism. I just chalk it up as my lack of experience with storytelling, and my inability to keep to a fixed schedule. :-)<P>The trick I'm trying to achieve is to describe several plot threads <I>as they occur simultaneously</I>. I've kinda written myself into a corner, since all the current threads depend on real-time (ie. end of the school year). Right now it's obvious that final exams are happening; in a few days, we'll see other stuff happening as well.<P>I apologize for the confusion... it *is* my fault. :-) Unfortunately, I'm still honing my storytelling technique (that is to say, it's not exactly Pulitzer-calibre yet), and trying to deal with personal issues that always manage to slow down the comic. All I can suggest is to have patience, and all *will* be resolved.<P>JOSH.
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Postby Fiend on Wed Jul 04, 2001 7:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B>I just chalk it up as my lack of experience with storytelling, and my inability to keep to a fixed schedule.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do not bother, author, you are doing fine.
Some people cannot tolerate suspense and are unable to adapt to a lack of closure when you switch between storylines.
What you are doing is a reminder that real life does not always come neatly packaged.<P>
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Postby ollie on Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fiend:
<B> Do not bother, author, you are doing fine.
Some people cannot tolerate suspense and are unable to adapt to a lack of closure when you switch between storylines.
What you are doing is a reminder that real life does not always come neatly packaged.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>plus Joe seemed pretty sure that they'd be having *two* leaving parties, having the 2nd one after the exams would seem a good idea, close of school, closure of plot pieces?<P>ollie.<P>
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Postby Dent on Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:33 am

That's a good point. And now that I think about it, the whole "colour spectacular" angle to the last Iain vs. Alison strip did sorta indicate that the story was now moving on.<P>And, there's a good opportunity to show effect through time lapse: Iain's words rattled Alison so much, that the rest of the evening just became a forgotten haze. And when we see her next, she's still mulling over what he said. Perhaps.<P>Heeeeey... I just realized the full truth to what you said, ollie! There are two parties, and Ghada said that she was late for *her own* farewell. So Iain's goodbye is still coming up, which means that Alison's reaction will indeed be forthcoming, made all the more poignant by the fact that it'll be the last time she sees him. Good stuff!
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Postby Pauline Hewitt on Wed Jul 04, 2001 10:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B>I've kinda written myself into a corner, since all the current threads depend on real-time (ie. end of the school year).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you resolved your plot lines properly rather than leaving us hanging by our fingernails screaming we'd all lose interest so rapidly it would be silly.
How many of us looked at Alan timing Joe and said *ARGH - the parties over and what happens to Allison and Ian now??*. Nice take on the same old joke though. Do we get the drier sheet again in September?
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Postby ollie on Wed Jul 04, 2001 11:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dent:
<B>
Heeeeey... I just realized the full truth to what you said, ollie! There are two parties, and Ghada said that she was late for *her own* farewell. So Iain's goodbye is still coming up, which means that Alison's reaction will indeed be forthcoming, made all the more poignant by the fact that it'll be the last time she sees him. Good stuff!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"you can't leave Iain, I love you!" stuff, yeah<P>she had teh first party to out-of-school confront him, things did't go to plan so she'll be thinkingof ways to get her own back for the 2nd party, it'll all go wrong again due to teh emotion of saying good bye to him etc<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PJ:
<B>
nice take on the same old joke though. Do we get the drier sheet again in September?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>well, with so many people leaving, do we also get a few new ppl (even 2ndry chars.) moving in? lack of non-canadians otherwise<P>*suddenly gets a wave of terrible 'tacked on' characters from other series spring to mind*<P>mabey not such a good idea then...<P>ollie.
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Postby Coota on Mon Jul 09, 2001 1:36 am

I agree with Elmo; that's really the only thing that bothers me about this comic: the fact that it seems to jump so quickly. It'll spend a month or so on one hour in one day, and then suddenly it will have been a year later, and everyones reminiscing about that time a year ago. Now, I'm not too sad about this, because it leaves huge holes that could be filled in by my little movie project thing. However, I don't know what holes are going to be filled by Josh himself, and I need a general idea of what went on in those intervals(or if Josh doesn't know himself, in which case I'd have a free hand).<P>I'd say that's the hardest thing about writing this movie script for Avalon. I'm trying to keep it within continuity, but every time I write something, I wonder if I might be jumping to conclusions. The fact is, I'm wondering more and more about whether I should just wait till the comic is over: it just doesn't lend itself to movie making until it is totally complete. Unless I knew everything about what is going to happen, what has happened, and what little bitty stories Josh is interested in telling, but hasn't the time or inclination to draw. So, I'm going to try something new, to give myself some kind of inspiration, despite the craziness of our beloved writer. I'm going to ask the fans what situation they want to see in a movie, and then I'm going to write, and I'm going to close my eyes and hope like hell it falls in with the story as a whole.<P>Some possible suggestions which are roiling around in my brain are:<P>1. A story that revolves primarily around Ceilidh worrying about Phoebe's growing reticience while at the same time becoming more and more attached to Joe after the 'first date' thing. This storyline allows for maximum character participation(Ceilidh and Joe as centers, Phoebe as a secondary, with other plots intertwining; Joe's continuing love for Helene, Allison's snobbery, Iain getting pummelled by various women, etc.), and also allows for some fan service. I don't mean gratuitious shots of Diedre's cleavage, by the way: I mean showing a storyline which involves lots of Joe and Ceilidh time, which is something that people seem to enjoy quite a bit. The only problem here is catharsis: I can't deliver any, because I don't know who Joe chooses, Helene or Ceilidh. It would be a fill in the blanks thing, along the lines of the horrible Babylon 5 movies like "The Earth-Minbari War", which are nothing more than glorified flashback sequences. <P>2. An Allison storyline: she drops out of the picture for huge amounts of time, and only seems to drop back in when somebody needs advice. Maybe a movie about that background character, that person you see all the time but never really pay attention to, that Wedge Antilles of the relationship comedy comic, would be interesting. But, again, I don't know what kind of catharsis I can give. Because I don't know enough.<P>3. Well, I got nothing. I can think of a hundred interesting things, but nothing I can really resolve, because I don't know enough. I guess I could just create my own catharsis, and have my movie be kind of an alternative universe Avalon (like Macross: Do You Remember Love?) which condenses and changes things a bit. If I had something that I could cinch a beginning, middle and end to, then I'd be cool. But all Avalon is is a swirl of beginning and middles. There aren't any ends, ever. Wait... waitttttt.... something just hit me upside the head here while I was writing this... if I wrote a storyline about Ceilidh that leads UP to the big date, then details said date moreso, then hints at his still longing for Helene... HELL YES. I think. That's kind of catharsis. But not really, because Joe and Ceilidh just kind of end uncertainly there. Damn, you see what I'm going through here? <P>I love this comic, but I'm thinking more and more that I'm just going to have to wait until Josh is done in order to write the script. Or do the whole alternative universe thing. Which might work: I know I loved "Macross: Do You Remember Love?" without ever having watched Macross the show. <P>Kill me now. Now I know how Josh feels, only at least he knows where he's going <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> I remain committed, but most likely will end up committed. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby Coota on Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:08 am

Hey hey hey! Don't throw around words like "attack"!! I love Avalon, and wouldn't have it any other way! I *wish* there was an *occasional* resolution, but then I guess it wouldn't be Avalon then, would it? I'm just throwing around personal opinions and feelings here, not actually demanding that you change anything. I feel that all good stories, however, provide catharsis in some manner, even if the end is incredibly open ended. The only time I've ever felt this did not hold true was with Neon Genesis Evangelion, where nothing at all was resolved. But I don't think new comers to Avalon would neccessarily understand a movie without a concrete ending. Of course, what am I saying? Would anyone but Avalon fanatics actually buy an Avalon movie?<P>Anyways, sorry if that was interpreted as an attack, it was just me ranting at my own inability to find inspiration in anything except action scripts. If Ceilidh packed heat, we'd all be a lot better off.<P>------------------
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Postby Dinghead on Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:33 am

It it really September in Avalon WITHOUT a dryer sheet?
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Postby Josh Phillips on Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:58 am

Coota, why do you need catharsis? Sometimes a movie can be very powerful by leaving the viewer a little uneasy about the outcome. Give the movie a clear ending... but don't necessarily make it a happy (or even predictable) one. (ObSpielberg: A.I. would've been better had Spielberg *not* tacked catharsis onto the end)<P>And may I poiint out that your post seems to attack me on the basis that you don't know how the story of Avalon will end. I sure hope the average reader is more forgiving than you are. ;-)<P>JOSH.<P>------------------
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Postby Quattro on Tue Jul 10, 2001 11:33 am

Or you can just do a typical anime thing and create a movie that has nothing to do with the series, and in doing so creates a whole other alternate world where monkies fly and people walk on their hands....<P>It could work, right?<P>Quattro<P><P>------------------
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Postby Fool on Wed Jul 11, 2001 4:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coota:
<B>The only time I've ever felt this did not hold true was with Neon Genesis Evangelion, where nothing at all was resolved.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The only thing I couldn't really resolve about Neon Genesis Evangelion was who said the last line.
It works either way, but I'd still like to know who said it.<P>Hee hee hee...<P>Everyone else lost their resolution and became soup.
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