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Postby TW on Tue May 01, 2001 8:56 am

I think a lot of people are focusing on the third panel, but are skipping the importance of the last. That last panel creeped me out big time.<P>"She gets upset over the littlest things...she's fine"
WHAT?!<P>Surely Deirdre would know about Pheobe's problems. Unless she is completely oblivious or Pheobe is really good at hiding it, Deirdre should know about her little sis's depression - especially since Pheobe's problems were the pretext for Ryan and Deirdre to meet in the first place (which lasted about two months before they became serious, by my figuring.)
So if Deirdre knows, and I think she does, she is deliberately lying to Ryan because she fears that he will remember his original plan, and leave her for Pheobe.<P>If Deirdre knows about Pheobe's problems and lies about it to Ryan, who may be one of the few people who actually cares about Pheobe, her character is cast in a whole different light. And when I think back to how quickly Deirdre snagged Ryan with her "She may not be right for you..." comment, I wonder how much 'help' Deirdre gave Ryan with Pheobe in the first place. Or perhaps even 'help' that Deirdre gave Pheobe concerning Ryan.<P>Forget about Deirdre shagging Ryan - it sounds to me more like she's screwing Pheobe over.<P>T.W.
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Postby Trunkster on Tue May 01, 2001 9:16 am

You're forgetting another possibility: that she's aware of her sis's probs, but doesn't believe they're too big that she should try to help her out, in which case she probably thinks it would be best for Feebs to figure it out herself and that she shouldn't involve herself unless asked for help.<P>------------------
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Postby Sertrel on Tue May 01, 2001 9:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trunkster:
<B>You're forgetting another possibility: that she's aware of her sis's probs, but doesn't believe they're too big that she should try to help her out, in which case she probably thinks it would be best for Feebs to figure it out herself and that she shouldn't involve herself unless asked for help.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Trunks, this is actually a very thoughtful and plausible explanation.<P>Deirdre is known to be a blunt, strong-willed, independent, and resilient individual. She dropped out of school and hides from home. She doesn't mope about her problems, she takes the most direct route to the closest solution and barrels into it. She would not perceive herself as being prone to neuroses or angst. If she had Phoebe's problems, she wouldn't see them as problems to agonize over, she would simply find a way to pick up the pieces and move on. She won't help others, cause she wouldn't expect help herself.<P>As for the flip side of this coin... Beware if she ever does end up in psychological trouble. For she would not ask for help nor willingly show her pain to anyone.<P>Sertrel<P>------------------
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Postby TW on Tue May 01, 2001 10:12 am

Hmm - that makes sense. And even in my theory, I think that Deirdre may not know just how _far_ Pheobe's problems have progressed.
But the ellipsis seals it for me. She doesn't think that Pheobe is fine.<P>If I am right and Deirdre knows that Pheobe isn't fine, then it turns out that Pheobe is the more caring of the two and Deirdre is the selfish self-centered one. How wrong I have been! I don't know if that's true, but that's pretty damn twisty.<P>T.W.
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Postby Trunkster on Tue May 01, 2001 10:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TW:
<B>If I am right and Deirdre knows that Pheobe isn't fine, then it turns out that Pheobe is the more caring of the two and Deirdre is the selfish self-centered one.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, not necessarily. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> I mean, what if Deirdre knows Feebs isn't fine and thinks what's best for Feebs would be for her to stay out of her problems and figure things out herself? That doesn't mean she doesn't care about her sister if she thinks that course of action would be in Feeb's best interests.<P>Example: Let's assume Deirdre knows Feebs is having problems socially. But what can she do that Feebs wouldn't mind? Seeing as how they're sisters and probably know each other well, Deeds should have a good idea what would and wouldn't work. I don't think Phoebe would want Deirdre to become her new best friend for company, and Deirdre doesn't have many friends herself around town (they're probably all off at college). So Deeds thinks that it would be best for Feebs to figure out her social situation herself without her help, seeing as how she wouldn't be much help anyway.<P>------------------
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Postby TW on Tue May 01, 2001 10:46 am

*clings desperately to his precious speculation*
But...but....<P>Oh damn it all. You're probably right. Well, that means that I can see Deirdre is a nice character again, so yay.<P>T.W.
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Postby TW on Wed May 02, 2001 1:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Here's a little insidious thought I had: what if Deidre did know that Phoebe was having problems, but didn't tell Ryan because she knew Ryan had tried to date her? What if she was worried about Ryan's "maternal instincts" towards Phoebe kicking in? Hmm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, yeah. That was what I was talking about in the first place. I'll admit that it probably isn't as wicked as I first thought, but I still have a hard time buying the idea that Deirdre doesn't think that anything is wrong. I mean, the whole reason that she started talking to Ryan was because he was trying to help Pheobe. And I would be surprised if the thought of losing Ryan to Pheobe hasn't crossed Deirdre's mind at all.<P>Of course, Ryan's pretty clueless as to the whole situation anyway, so maybe he didn't really tell Deirdre anything she didn't already know.<P>Screw it. I'm more confused now than before!<P>T.W.
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Postby steveha on Wed May 02, 2001 3:45 am

Remember that Dierdre went off to college, had trouble, and dropped out... without telling anyone. She then essentially hid from her parents for months, to postpone telling them about it.<P>I therefore disagree with the idea that she always faces problems head-on.<P>If she were thinking carefully about Phoebe and her problems, she might realize that Phoebe is <B>not</B> okay. But I don't think she is really thinking much about Phoebe. She knows that Ryan was originally interested in Phoebe, and she doesn't want to lose him. So she is just downplaying the importance of Phoebe's problems. She is being bad--but she isn't being a cold, evil person, or a skank-ho, or anything else really major.<P>Phoebe was hurt by her experiences with Todd. She was also hurt that Joe was interested in Helene rather than her. But her reaction was to build a wall between herself and the world. Joe tells her he's interested -- she rebuffs him, and winds up losing his friendship. Ryan sends her a love letter -- she threatens him with bodily harm. She expresses no interest in any boy in the school. The thing is, the all-alone-against-the-world game gets old after a while. (I was very unpopular in Junior High School and High School; I clung fiercely to my few friends. Phoebe has it as bad as I did, probably worse. She's not having fun right now.)<P>Now she isn't sure what to do. She confronted Joe and that went badly. Celidh, who she considers to be her only real friend, reacted oddly to her. At this point she doesn't really know how to reach out to someone else, or to whom she might want to reach out.<P>I don't know what Ceilidh is up to for sure, but I imagine it is something along the lines of a surprise party in Phoebe's honor. If she can keep Phoebe from fleeing the moment the surprise is sprung, such a tactic might actually do some good.
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Postby Sterling on Wed May 02, 2001 4:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sertrel:
<B>As for the flip side of this coin... Beware if she ever does end up in psychological trouble. For she would not ask for help nor willingly show her pain to anyone.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMHO, this has already happened. <a href="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20001121.html">2:52</a> has some rather interesting overtones, especially when combined with Phoebe's reaction to Deirdre's return and Deirdre's statements about Mr. Bradley's reactions to whatever happened three years ago. (See <a href="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010220.html">2:112</a>) It was something big, and it likely involved some or all of Deirdre, Deirdre's boyfriend at the time, Joe, Phoebe, Todd, and the Bradley Parental Units.<P>Deirdre <B>also</B> probably knows exactly what it is Phoebe's going through, moreso than Phoebe does. These things generally seem more important and world-destroying when they're happening to you, and when you get some perspective and look back on them, you see they aren't really that bad. She probably believes that Ryan couldn't help her sister - possibly believing that he'd just wind up doing the same damage her boyfriend did three years ago.
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Postby Trunkster on Wed May 02, 2001 4:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by steveha:
<B>I don't know what Ceilidh is up to for sure, but I imagine it is something along the lines of a surprise party in Phoebe's honor.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Watch Josh take this opportunity to introduce a new character, the guy Ceilidh tries to hookup Feebs with. ;)
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Postby lostfactor on Wed May 02, 2001 5:44 am

Personally, I think that Deidre honestly believes that nothing is wrong with Phoebe, and that whatever is going on is something that she can deal with effortlessly. The idea that she'd dismiss her sister's problems knowing full well that they were present seems totally out-of-character for her, especially considering that there was no drama whatsoever in that scene. It was a passing comment, one that implied casual reference and a casual reply. She genuinely thought there was nothing going on, or she would have told Ryan. After all, they've been shagging for the past four months. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>And why, for that matter, should she suspect anything? Dying your hair is not a terribly unusual course of action, especially to a brighter shade of your natural color. You might be able to go by the fact that she's acting angry and confrontational to others, but Phoebe has ALWAYS acted like that, at least as long as we've seen her. Presumably, ever since her breakup with Todd. If she's acting a little worse than usual, but still well within the range of what would be normal for her, then why should anyone be worried that something is wrong with her?<P>Here's a little insidious thought I had: what if Deidre did know that Phoebe was having problems, but didn't tell Ryan because she knew Ryan had tried to date her? What if she was worried about Ryan's "maternal instincts" towards Phoebe kicking in? Hmm?
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Postby Pauline Hewitt on Wed May 02, 2001 8:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trunkster:
<B> Watch Josh take this opportunity to introduce a new character, the guy Ceilidh tries to hookup Feebs with. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No chance. Ryan is just setting himself up for that position to drop on him BEFORE he can go public. Because we like him he has to suffer. That's how Josh works.</p><P>PJH<br>
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