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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 12:08 am

"I'd Talk To Someone, But..."<P>It's Feeb's arc! Yet more proof that <B>something</B> is going to happen to Feeb.
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Postby Shizumaru on Tue May 01, 2001 12:11 am

Mmmm....<P>I don't know. Suicide is a little too melodramatic for a strip like this. It just wouldn't fit right. But...then again, Roomies did kill off a character. (I frankly think that was a mistake, because it completely changed the tone of that comic more or less permanently.)<P>I hope that Josh doesn't give in to the cheap thrill of suicide or attempted suicide. I just don't think it'd work.<P>------------------
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Postby not damonk on Tue May 01, 2001 12:38 am

a high school drama, and you think it wouldn't "work?"<P>throughout the last year, 6 kids killed themselves at my kid sis' high school.<P>She knew 4 of them very well. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/frown.gif"><P>like it or not, it's not something that can be hidden or ignored...<P>whether or not (and i only pointed out the possibility) Phoebe attempts or succeeds, i think it would fit the strip very well...<P>i'm not wishing for this, mind you, but suggesting that Josh does not limit himself to simple plots or ideas. <I>Avalon</I> is <I>not</I> just a romance strip, or a funny ha-ha strip.<P>It has these elements, but it is so much <I>more</I>.<P>So I wouldn't put it past him to do this, if his story demanded it...
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 1:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shizumaru:
<B>Mmmm....<P>I don't know. Suicide is a little too melodramatic for a strip like this. It just wouldn't fit right. But...then again, Roomies did kill off a character. (I frankly think that was a mistake, because it completely changed the tone of that comic more or less permanently.)<P>I hope that Josh doesn't give in to the cheap thrill of suicide or attempted suicide. I just don't think it'd work.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You just don't fully understand Phoebe's character, then. The girl has put up with a <B>massive</B> amount of pain since grade 9. You have fighting parents, a harsh breakup, losing all your friends, fear of being hurt by people, loneliness, losing a new friend to an old one, and general emotional distress. These things won't fade with time unless you talk about them, if you bottle your emotions they'll just become more volatile. Maybe you don't understand what it's like to feel suicidal.
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Postby Skie on Tue May 01, 2001 1:55 am

<P>Personally, I don't think it'd be such a horrible thing to the strip if Phoebe did commit suicide.<P>I know that's going to sound really weird, but let me explain myself. I'm not saying this out of cruelty. I do like Phoebe as a character, and I don't want terrible things to happen to her out of any misplaced anger against someone like her I hate or something along those lines, nor do I even want it to happen, period (I want to happen whatever it turns out I will enjoy or appreciate the most after the fact; I don't pretend to know what that is now!). But it does seem like it would be a viable way to continue the story.<P>I don't think it'd necessarily be overly melodramatic or contrived. As posted earlier, it sadly happens very often in real life, sometimes because of distress one might think much milder than Phoebe's. And judging by the comics to date, I trust that Mr. Phillips' storytelling ability is more than adequate to write in such a thing without ruining the comic.<P>It's mentioned in the About link that Avalon was originally conceived as a drama. It is also, to some extent, about the characters growing up, and mortality is something you have to face at some point in your life. So maybe such a tragic occurance would not be so out of place after all.<P>I will concede that were something along those lines to happen, it probably would seriously impact the mood of the strip. But is that really such a bad thing?<P>Just my two cents,
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 1:56 am

If the world was full of happy endings it would get boring pretty damn fast.
Alternately, if the world was full of sad endings only the cynical people would left as everyone else would have killed themselves.
Thus balance is required (but not often administered.)
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Postby Robyrt on Tue May 01, 2001 3:08 am

Hehe... Phoebe learns she has the power to turn ANYTHING the color of cherry Kool-Aid... now Josh can color the strips with a single click of the flood fill <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby RevMe on Tue May 01, 2001 3:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kaoru:
<B>NotDamonk, you have opened my eyes. I know what's going to happen:<P>Deirdre comes home, with Ryan(for some reason that will be explained later) they find Phoebe, unconscious, having set herself on the path to the next world. They rush her to the hospital, then later EVERYONE</B> comes to see her and tell her how much she means to them. Phoebe gains a major selfesteem boost and actually stops being depressed. She then finally faces the demons that have been eating at her since grade 9.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Thing is, it doesn't really work that way.. she'd just probably realise/think they were just saying that to make her feel better, and for a short while, everyone'd be nice to her, but eventually it'd just revert to her feeling alone again, only with the added bonus of everyone being on tiptoes around her again, because they know that she's not "stable" or whatever. So, if anything, it'd be one of those things where it'd be OK for a little while then it'd be the same if not worse. <P>So, in this way, I think it should either be for keeps, or perhaps when she's getting ready to kill herself, she should stop, and then perhaps have someone come along and be friend/significant other with her. <P>And I'm talking as Phoebe as my favorite character, but I still think if she's going to go through with an attempt, it should work, or she should abort the attempt before she actually goes through with it. Depression doesn't really work that way where self-esteem is instantly fixed by people telling you they love you. It's a long road, which is in most cases impossible. Only the lucky ones hit a way that's even possible to keep on living without contemplating suicide 24/7. Anyway, what good is it if someone who loves you is never around when you need them? It's just another lie, which is something you don't need. Unlike some, I think love _is_ possible, but I don't think that it's that frequent. I just can't accept that people that I barely know love me. Most of the people in Avalon seem to be Acquaintances to Phoebe, not actually full-on friends, and for them to declare their love would be afterschool-specialy and ultimately hollow. It's just an easy out that doesn't happen in real life, and it always pisses me off when I see it. It's yet another thing that eats at you, going "well, it worked for them, all they needed was people that dissed them in the past to all of a sudden declare that they possess the strongest emotion for them! But, why doesn't it work for me...". It's _fake_, and that's even more detrimental than just knowing the truth that only a handful of people actually care deeply for you, if anyone does. Honestly, with Ceilidh (I can never spell that right), I think she's on a cheering up mission just to keep up the status quo sort of thing, rather than out of any deep feelings for Phoebe (and I'm not talking about lesbianism here, I'm just talking about strong friendships). I could be way off base, but it just seems the way that it is... instead of going directly to her, going "Hey, what's wrong? Do you want to talk?" she's talking to other people to throw a party or something -- she's going through others when if she really cared, she'd dial direct. <P>I don't know, I'm just a depressed, bitter fuck, I guess, so I'm probably just talking out my ass, here.
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Postby Shizumaru on Tue May 01, 2001 3:53 am

Oi. Because I seem like the cheery type on here, do not assume I haven't known pain. I once lived in a place for six years where I was the only Asian guy in my grade, was called 'chink' on fairly regular occasion, had no friends, et cetera, et cetera.<P>I've also gone through those romantic adolescent messes. I was never dumped during my high school years, but only because I never got into any relationships to begin with. That takes a good chunk out of your self-esteem, yes it does, mmmhm. Some of those rejections I went through were nasty things that came close to ruining friendships.<P>Oh yes, I also worked in the chemistry stockroom as a teacher's aide my senior year. Lots and lots of yummy toxic killer stuff in there, don't you know.<P>Phoebe? I understand her plenty. I still have dark moments where I feel the way she must be feeling right now. I guess I've just happened to make it through and be stronger for all of it.<P>Back to the matter at hand. Yes, it's more than just wacky hijinks, more than romantic comedy. But it's still those things, and I just see the comic as being badly harmed if the drama is taken too far. Having Phoebe pull a Noelle and running away to escape it would be fine. Heck, Dee did that too; maybe it runs in the family. But if she dies, that'll forever be hanging over the comic until it ends.<P>We'll just have to see.<P>------------------
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 3:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RevMe:
<B>
Thing is, it doesn't really work that way..
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're taking for granted that I was predicting the <B>outline</B> for a probably month long story arc. I know that people don't go from depressed to happy in one night. When I say she gains a self esteem boost I'm saying that she spends time hacking through those social barriers so she won't be lonely anymore (which will of course, take a long time.) And then when the social barriers are down, she'll begin confronting the problems she's been hiding from by not talking to anyone.
I was just laying down a brief prediction of the "I'd Talk To Someone, But..." story arc.
Anyway, don't confuse the messenger for the message <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
We're all depressed in some way, some are just better at dealing with/hiding it than others.
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 3:57 am

I should also mention that I personally despise the use of suicide attempts/threats as an attention getter. (Which is why, among other reasons I've never done it.)
But I also try to look at a situatation fairly before applying my logic.
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 4:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shizumaru:
<B>Oi. Because I seem like the cheery type on here, do not assume I haven't known pain. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was waiting for you to confirm that.<P>That's strange, just replace the word Asian in the first paragraph with "General Social Reject" and the racist "chink" with a plethora of various general insults and we match, except I didn't have access to deadly chemicals and I dated once, she dumped me in the most tactless way I could imagine.<P>Besides, I'm not calling for the death of Phoebe, I'm saying the people around her need to wake the f*ck up and get a clue that she's hurting big time. So far only Joe and Ceilidh know for sure that she's not happy, Ryan suspects, but everyone else just brushes it off. While suicide may be overused everywhere else, it seems to fit here at this point in in the story. She's at the "hopeless" stage, not the "I gotta get out of here stage."
That may change with tomorrow's strip.
It may not.<p>[This message has been edited by Kaoru (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Postby Shizumaru on Tue May 01, 2001 4:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kaoru:
<B>I should also mention that I personally despise the use of suicide attempts/threats as an attention getter. (Which is why, among other reasons I've never done it.)
But I also try to look at a situatation fairly before applying my logic.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, definitely. Particularly after I heard about Sylvia Plath, who on numerous times attempted suicide in ways that she knew she'd be found before she died, exactly for that end.<P>The last time, she stuck her head in the oven shortly before the babysitter (yes, she had a little kid at this time and was putting herself at risk this way--ain't that sick?) was supposed to come by. The babysitter arrived late. She asphyxiated on natural gas. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever.<P>------------------
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Postby RevMe on Tue May 01, 2001 4:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kaoru:
<B>
You're taking for granted that I was predicting the outline</B> for a probably month long story arc. I know that people don't go from depressed to happy in one night. When I say she gains a self esteem boost I'm saying that she spends time hacking through those social barriers so she won't be lonely anymore (which will of course, take a long time.) And then when the social barriers are down, she'll begin confronting the problems she's been hiding from by not talking to anyone.
I was just laying down a brief prediction of the "I'd Talk To Someone, But..." story arc.
Anyway, don't confuse the messenger for the message ;)
We're all depressed in some way, some are just better at dealing with/hiding it than others.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Still, though, I don't think that that could really take place in any real period of time that could be accurately charted in a comic strip. If it even were possible, it'd probably take until the end of Avalon for it to play out that Phoebe would be "cured" (I hesitate to use that word, but hey)... I'm speaking from personal experience here, and well, it takes pretty much forever...<P>As for the suicide for attention getter, that's stupid. If you're going to kill yourself, do it to die, not to get people to pity you. If I ever were going to, I would not tell _anyone_ what I was planning. I'd just up and do it. So, I agree with you on that one.<P>------------------
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Postby RevMe on Tue May 01, 2001 4:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kaoru:
<B> I was waiting for you to confirm that.
Besides, I'm not calling for the death of Phoebe, I'm saying the people around her need to wake the f*ck up and get a clue that she's hurting big time. So far only Joe and Ceilidh know for sure that she's not happy, Ryan suspects, but everyone else just brushes it off. While suicide may be overused everywhere else, it seems to fit here at this point in in the story. She's at the "hopeless" stage, not the "I gotta get out of here stage."
That may change with tomorrow's strip.
It may not.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The thing is, I'm not sure at what level Joe and Ceilidh are at in their awareness of Phoebe's pain. I get the impression that Joe might know a bit more, since they were closer for a while, even though they had the falling out and all, but I think Ceilidh is more of "Oh, she's just down a bit, nothing too bad!". <P>Like you, I'm not _calling_ for the death of Phoebe, because, as I mentioned, she's my favorite character, but as I mentioned before, I just find the whole saved-at-last-minute-we-love-you thing rather hollow and in the long run, more problematic than helpful. Also, like you, I'm not even sure if she _IS_ at the point of suicide. I'm certain she's at the point of contemplation and has been for a while, but there's a difference between contemplation and actually following through. Hi. So, uh, yeah... Thing is, these sort of storylines are, well, I as a rule really like them, but it's still hard to do a satisfactory result. Often times, I find the most satisfactory does result in the actual suicide going on and taking place, but not always. Ideally, it'll just be contemplation, then a "well, maybe later", and then something happens that breaks this downswing for a while.<P>And, well, if it turns into a "It's a Wonderful Life" storyline, I shall vomit...8).<P>Granted, if it DOES go IaWL, at least it wouldn't have to go to black and white!<P><P>------------------
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 4:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RevMe:
<B> Still, though, I don't think that that could really take place in any real period of time-(snip!)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How about we settle for an improvement over her current emotional state?
It'd be cool (though as you have noted, totally unrealistic) to see her be totally happy and "normal" in a month of Avalon time, but I think she can at least go from "God my life sucks" to "Things could be worse."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>
As for the suicide for attention getter, that's stupid. If you're going to kill yourself, do it to die, not to get people to pity you. If I ever were going to, I would not tell _anyone_ what I was planning. I'd just up and do it. So, I agree with you on that one.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The other reason no matter how much I think about suicide, I never do it: My desire to end it all is always overidden by my sense of guilt when I think about what my friends and family will have to deal with if I did.
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Postby Kaoru on Tue May 01, 2001 4:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RevMe:
<B>I just find the whole saved-at-last-minute-we-love-you thing rather hollow and in the long run, more problematic than helpful.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I'll accept your logic if you can present me with a scenario that satisfies the following:<P>1)Everyone realizes Phoebe is in really messed up place in her head right now<P>2)Everyone starts to try and help begin the healing process (which is 3 years late, I might add)<P>3)She starts realize that there are good things in life<P>4)She starts resolving her issues with Joe and whomever else she has problems with<P>I don't want an "instant cure" for Phoebe, but I want to see her moving in the right direction.
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Postby Shizumaru on Tue May 01, 2001 4:56 am

Hm. I see your point. (Kaoru's, that is.) Yeah, I could accept Phoebe sinking to the level of thinking about it; that's the point I hit very briefly one day in the aforementioned stockroom. Of course, as soon as I realized what I was contemplating, I recoiled in horror and haven't gone back to that point since.<P>What's happening right now is both the faults of Phoebe and her (purported) friends. Ceilidh does sort of notice, at least, but probably isn't taking it quite as seriously as she should. The others need to realize that something's up. On the other hand, the way that Phoebe withdraws only makes it that much harder for everyone to approach her.<P>Joe is a somewhat special case, among those involved. He got burned by Phoebe, and is probably still feeling resentful about it, and perhaps he had the right to feel that way. But that was years ago, and resentfulness is now becoming bitterness, which is infinitely more unhealthy. If he, in particular, can reach out to her, he'll not only be doing her a world of good, he'll be allowing himself to let go of something that's been stewing inside for too long.<P>------------------
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Postby Charlahack on Tue May 01, 2001 5:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shizumaru:
<B>What's happening right now is both the faults of Phoebe and her (purported) friends. Ceilidh does sort of notice, at least, but probably isn't taking it quite as seriously as she should. The others need to realize that something's up. On the other hand, the way that Phoebe withdraws only makes it that much harder for everyone to approach her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First of all, I'd just like to say I'm thoroughly impressed by the discussion of this topic. I was harboring similar feelings, but didn't want to post because I was concerned that I would be bringing down the generally upbeat/goofy mood of this forum. Glad to see how this discussion has flowered.<P>Now, my two cents. The one thing that I think you're missing with the above quote is that, with the singular exception of Alison, everyone who is close to Phoebe has some rather pressing concerns of their own right now. Ceilidh and Joe are exploring the bounds of their relationship, and he's having second thoughts about the whole thing. Alan is being typically Alan-ish, and Helene is distracted by both Alan's recent behaviour and that whole election thang. Deeds and Ryan have their own strangely clandestine relationship going on, and her parents seem to be having their own problems.<P>Does this mean that it's her own damned fault? No. But from my own experience, I would never have imagined that a close friend of mine would try to kill herself - it's just NOT something you think someone you love would do. When it happened to me, I and her other friends and family were absolutely stunned because we had no idea that the generally bright and cheery girl could be thinking those kind of thoughts...and Phoebe, for whatever unfortunate reason, doesn't exactly have a reputation for being bright and cheery.<P>The fact that you have your own concerns and distractions makes it hard to notice the danger signals, and it really doesn't look like she's been giving off any public ones. One hopes (personally) that Phoebe's going to be okay, but if Josh plans to have her survive any suicide attempt that she may or may not perform, I'm certain she's going to be a lot more involved in the story than she's been all year. Which is a good thing.<P>My two cents, (or 1.48 cents American)<P>Charlahack<p>[This message has been edited by Charlahack (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Postby TW on Tue May 01, 2001 8:20 am

I would be very surprised if Pheobe hasn't already entertained suicidal thoughts. Considering how depressed she is and how long that depression has lasted, it is not a great leap of faith to assume that she has a very big problem.<P>I also wouldn't be surprised if she tried committing suicide. It is a significant problem among teens - especially girls - in the U.S., and I don't imagine that Canada is a great deal different in this respect. I was shocked to learn how many of my friends have either thought about killing themselves, or actually tried to do it.<P>Still, I don't think Pheobe will go that far. Even if she won't talk to anyone (except maybe Joe) about her problems, I think she is more likely to direct her actions outward rather than inward. She might go to Joe's house and scream at him, or even try contacting Ryan. Or - and I hate to say this - she may seek comfort in the arms of Iain. <P>As for Ceilidh, Ceilidh was once a very close friend, but since she began dating Joe, she has gone into Hel
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Postby Nrg Spoon on Tue May 01, 2001 8:36 am

Oh dear... just reading some of these suicide thought cause a long stotyline and all this... If that were the case we'd see Ceilidh having to leave for some unknown reason. Then Helene would lose her memory a few months later, and wake up at a secret organization that hunts down aliens, and realize this is where Ceilidh was all along. Oh, and Ceilidh would later find out she had a long lost twin who was switched at birth with Ciaran (lucky her).
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Postby Jen Aside on Tue May 01, 2001 8:37 am

This comic's supposed to mostly be FUNNY, people! <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/kao/chika/chirolp_gurug.gif"> <font size=+50>LAUGH, DAMN IT</font><P> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/kao/mamies/musu.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/ct/ctchar/cwalkleft.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/other/neko2.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/mm/mmxa/anim-chimerapunch.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/mm/mmxa/zeroanim.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/kao/mamies/kusun-k.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/kodama/01.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/bof/dragons/gdragon.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/other/animundine.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/gundam/deathscythe_breath.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/other/animsylphid.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/gundam/shenlong_lowstrongweapon.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/char/s_walk.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/boss/manabeas.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/boss/vampcast.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/other/lumina.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/som/other/luna.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/games/gundam/tallgeese_lowweakweapon.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/blobs/bounce.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/animals/nibble6.gif">
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Postby Strangeone on Tue May 01, 2001 8:42 am

I doubt this could lead to suicide. Suicide attempt, maybe, but Pheobe would ultimately fail or be stopped. Those of you who read my untitled fanfic may remember Josh's reply that the subject was too dark for Avalon.
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Postby flying squirrel on Tue May 01, 2001 8:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jen Aside:
<IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/animals/nibble6.gif"> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with Jen on this point. Introducing Big Issues like teen suicide, drug abuse, gun-toting classmates, etc. into the comic would be a mistake. And it's not very funny. <P>I'm still holding onto a theory that something bad (maybe even very bad) happened between Joe and Phoebe that we don't fully know about, but I think she's stronger than that. Things may get worse before they get better, but I've got a hunch Feebs will come out on top. I think she does too.
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Postby ckern on Tue May 01, 2001 8:50 am

If nothing else, Josh should not do a suicide storyline because then he will be subjected to even more comparisons to Roomies and will have to suffer through years of jokes about "It's Phoebe!" or "It's Ceilidh!"<P>-Chris <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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