I Search for Mzacher! He is the 13th Artist!

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Postby Coota on Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:56 am

I have an idea for an amazing webcomic, which I feel needs to be done. It has become a quest of mine, of near biblical proportions. I was told my Josh Phillips and the rest of the #Avalon gang that the one I seek is named Mzacher. That he is the one who can bring balance to the webcomics... wait, no, wrong person.<P>But you get it: if you read these forums, mzacher, I'd like to get in contact with you, and propose my idea. It'll sound wacky at first, even a little silly, but anyone on these boards will assure you that I'm the man who can pull it off, at least writing wise.<P>What is this quest?<P>To create a Neon Genesis Evangelion webcomic that takes off where 24 left off, without any cheap gimicks such as "new angels", pilots who aren't even from the Tokyo-3 school, etc. I want to take it in the direction it seemed to be going before it ran out of money and wrapped up quick like with episodes 25 and 26. It will eventually end almost the same way: I have a planned time period, and a general idea for what I want to do, but there are just some things I feel need taking care of.<P>I feel the need to explore Asuka more. She seemed to be basically cast aside at the end, completely and totally destrooyed. Focus on character development; while the characters never actually develop(they remain broken, I think this was a prime aim of Anno), I do believe that there is a long range of development that can place within their shattered frames. Plot line will extend the battle between EarthGov and NERV; I realize this has probably been done before, but that's just a backdrop to the actual story. <P>I basically feel that it was cut off too soon, and that all fanfiction so far has mauled their treatments of it. Of course, I'm a total hypocrite: I fanfiction in all it's forms, but I love creating it myself. I think, however, that my overwhelming arrogance is a help rather than a burden. <P>I, however, cannot draw, and need someone of your caliber to assist me. So, send an e-mail to coota58@hotmail.com if you read this post.<P>Help me, mzacher, you're my only hope.<P>------------------
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.<P>Self Proclaimed President-Dictator of the Hooper_X and Squad 37 Fan Club<P>The Future is Noir: <A HREF="http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/</A>
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Postby mzacher on Wed Apr 18, 2001 3:47 am

...personally, I've always considered the 'End of Evangelion' movie to be a prime example of why you don't take the writer off his anti-depressant medication until *after* he finishes writing the movie script... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>(but then, I'm a heretic. I'm allowed to say things like that. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> )<P>Coota, I've replied to your mail. Read it and mock my disjointed attempt at communication. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby Wapiko on Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:03 am

So I assume you're talking about the anime version of Evangelion, not the manga version of Evangelion, which, I think, is still going on?<P>Wapiko-chan<P>------------------
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Postby Fool on Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:30 am

What are you talking about???
End of Evangelion was funny!<P>Pop goes the world...<P>Hee hee hee...
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Postby Coota on Wed Apr 18, 2001 6:53 am

Actually, I've seen End of Evangelion already. And it dissapointed me. I liked episodes 25 and 26 much better as an end. No, what I plan on doing is extending everything for a year, and providing some kind of closure for Asuka, who doesn't get any of that in either End of Eva OR Episode 25 and 26. <P>And yes, I'm speaking of the Anime; the manga, as far as I can tell, still hasn't even reached past the 8th or 9th Angels; if anyone could tell me if it provides more in depth looks into the characters, I'll purchase it, but I figured it would just be a rehashing of the anime. It seems that way from the issues that I saw were purchasable at mycomicshop.com. <P>And I'm planning on keeping VERY close to the original ending of the series. I just plan on extending how long it takes NERV/Gendou to initiate the Third Impact. <P>------------------
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.<P>Self Proclaimed President-Dictator of the Hooper_X and Squad 37 Fan Club<P>The Future is Noir: <A HREF="http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/</A>
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Postby Nick Pavlovski on Wed Apr 18, 2001 11:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coota:
<B> I want to take it in the direction it seemed to be going before it ran out of money and wrapped up quick like with episodes 25 and 26. <P>I feel the need to explore Asuka more. She seemed to be basically cast aside at the end, completely and totally destrooyed. I basically feel that it was cut off too soon, and that all fanfiction so far has mauled their treatments of it. Of course, I'm a total hypocrite: I fanfiction in all it's forms, but I love creating it myself. I think, however, that my overwhelming arrogance is a help rather than a burden.
Help me, mzacher, you're my only hope.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See "End of Evangelion" dude, it's the true end to the TV series.
The end you have seen was hastily put together by Anno-san as he was not allowed to use End of Eva as the series' conclusion.
There'a a lot about Asuka in it too.
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Postby vision8 on Mon Apr 23, 2001 1:28 am

Messing with the sacred Evangelion, oh my.<P>My impression is that episodes 25 and 26 were supposed to be the end. That's where he wanted to go with it - showing a real breakthrough in Shinji. Obviously, Shinji wasn't going to make some miraculous change, that's not possible. But a real breakthrough that opens up the doorway to change.<P>End of Evangelion was done because so many people wanted more closure. Apparently he didn't really want to do it, but was pressured into it.<P>End of Evangelion pissed off more people. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> Personally, I think episodes 25 and 26 were a fine ending.<P>Of course, these are all rumors I've heard. I could be talking out of my butt here.<P>Hmm... only man on earth... alone with Asuka. ... Dude.<P>------------------
If an eighty foot slimy green man with a squid nailed to his face asks if he can devour your immortal soul and cast your still living remains to his minions to be tortured for all eternity... just say no!
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Postby KaoruX on Mon Apr 23, 2001 2:00 am

You do realize of course that would be a copyright infringement?
The only person who can dictate where Evangelion goes, is Anno Hideki. Also I'm fairly sure that Gainax is (as written in some contact, somewhere) the only company that can produce Evangelion. Besides, unless you have some kind of telepathic link with Hideki and can read his every thought, then whatever you and mzacher produce (no matter how well drawn or written) will not truly be NGE.
I'm not trying to discourge you, but you should be aware that path you're on has a Cease & Desist Order at the end of it.
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Postby Sterling on Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:24 am

Kaoru: Doujinshi (fancomics) are fairly common things to find on the web for popular anime and manga. I don't think any of them have been gone after by the companies who own the rights to the anime/manga in question, but I'm sure they would if one provoked them enough.<P>------------------
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Postby Josh Phillips on Tue Apr 24, 2001 2:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coota:
<B>Actually, I could make Star Wars Episode II if I wanted to, as long as I didn't make any money off of it. I can continue basically ANY series in the world as long as I make no money. If I had a team of animators, I'd continue EVA right now. But I don't, so I'm doing it in comic format.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry Coota... that's a total crock. Gainax owns all variety of rights to the Evangelion characters, series, name, and creative universe, all of which state that you can't do anything within those realms without their blessing.<P>Whether you make money off of an infringement doesn't change the fact that it *is* infringement. Your argument is analogous to saying, "I got the script to Star Wars: Espiode II, and I'm distributing it freely to everyone. But since I'm not charging anyone for the script, George Lucas has no reason to be pissed off."<P>In the meantime, I'm really looking forward to seeing your continuation. :-) Maybe you could just keep a low profile with this comic, or like it was stated here earlier, you don't have much to worry from Japanese studios. I just had to comment on your argument 'cause, y'know, I haven't been a big fat hypocrite in a while. :-)<P>JOSH.
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Postby Sterling on Tue Apr 24, 2001 2:25 am

American copyright law's a good deal more screwed up than most people think. If you think you've broken it or someone else has, go talk to an experienced copyright lawyer before doing <I>anything</I>. Don't even tell your friends about it - hunt down a good lawyer ASAP. Expecially in the wake of things like the DMCA, you'd be surprised what constitutes infringement.<P>------------------
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Postby vision8 on Tue Apr 24, 2001 5:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kaoru:
<B>My bad. I keep forgetting that not all companies have the itchy lawyer trigger finger like American companies do.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aint America great? Steaming hot coffee. Need I say more?<P>------------------
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Postby Coota on Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:05 am

Actually, I've been working on various infringements of other people's copyrights for years, and so far I've discovered that most are willing to let you use their creative ideas as long as you make no money from the product. Hence, fan fiction.<P>Yes, if they really wanted to, they could throw you a cease and desist order. But then you can get around that through the unique parody laws, which allows you to basically do whatever you want with someone else's creative property as long as you're making fun of it. Of course, this can be nipped in the bud by them as well if they've got more money and lawyers than you(which they probably do). <P>But what it all comes down to is whether they care enough to deal with someone who is making no money from a product which revolves around their creative property. Yes, if there was a sequel to NGE, and I was giving it away for free, I'd be hunted down and dropped by their lawyers. However, if I created my own thing based off of an already released product(such as Star Wars fan movies), then I can probably get away with it.<P>It all depends on how high profile your target is. About six years back, LucasArts tried to shut down EVERY Star Wars fan website online. They quickly met with mass disapproval, and changed their tune to: "we're only shutting down the ones that make money off of us." This has since been the case with most major creative intellectual properties. You don't make the cash, they don't press the charges. It just isn't worth their time. <P>You've got a suprising amount of power and a surprising amount of loopholes to work with if you want to infringe on someone's property. It just depends on how inventive you are, and if you're an experienced conartist. <P>But I'm most likely going to be fine, as I'm treading path that has been tread by any amount of individuals before me. Fanart, fancomics, fanfiction, even fanmovies, have all been created years before I even came into conception of this. Do they work at the mercy of Gainax? Yeah. If Gainax tried to suppress them, would they succeed? I don't think so. It's too widespread.<P>If LucasArts had tried to suppress those fan websites a few years earlier, when there were only a couple around, they would have been fine. But once a free market has been established, it's almost impossible to get rid of it. Hence, the futility of the drug war, and stopping the trade of MP3s. So, while what I'm doing might be copyright infringement, it's largely ignored, or else Gainax would have suppressed things like EVA-R years ago, instead of giving their support to it.<P>------------------
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.<P>Self Proclaimed President-Dictator of the Hooper_X and Squad 37 Fan Club<P>The Future is Noir: <A HREF="http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/</A>
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Postby Coota on Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:54 am

Actually, I could make Star Wars Episode II if I wanted to, as long as I didn't make any money off of it. I can continue basically ANY series in the world as long as I make no money. If I had a team of animators, I'd continue EVA right now. But I don't, so I'm doing it in comic format.<P>And while it won't be "true" EVA, it'll be my conception, as told to me by the Angel Gabriel while on a drunken binge. EVA-R isn't *true* EVA either, but it's gotten the thumbs up from Gainax. And it's raping the series a lot worse than I am gonna be. <P>So, Kaoru, it's impossible to discourage me, because I'm completely insane.
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Postby Jen Aside on Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:12 am

And folks wonder why America especially is so damn litigious... ten times as many lawyers... <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/kao/chika/chirol_gusun.gif"> eew...<P>Frankly, what it boils down to is that people care more about money and "intellectual property" than having a good time...<P>*runs off with everyone's money while they ponder converting to Enjoyment-Only principles* <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/kao/chika/chip_xmas3.gif">
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Postby Coota on Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:50 am

Well, intellectual property and lawyers are a *good* thing, in some cases. For instance, if I were to steal everything about Avalon, call it "Tintagel", and just change the names of the characters, and try to make money off it, I'd be basically ripping Josh off. Thanks to that wonderful thing called a copyright, he can stop me cold.<P>Also, if I were distributing Avalon free, somewhere else, where Josh wouldn't be earning any money from it, then that would be bad too.<P>However, I believe that copyrighting should draw the line if I were to create a fan work about his characters, a spin off that has no official backing, and make no money off it. I wouldn't be depriving Josh of profits, I would not be using his material, but rather my own, set in his world. I would basically be providing an entirely different service from what Josh provides, and it might not hold the same "Josh Charm" to it. But it might satisfy *somebodies* hunger for Avalon Twistiness.<P>That's my whole take on fanwork: while it isn't the original, and it might not have the original's charm, it might, just MIGHT be able to capture enough to make SOMEBODY insanely happy, even if that person is just the author. I mean, I normally dislike fanfiction because it just doesn't have that "charm" of the original. But I *love* writing it. So, this entire project is basically for my own personal benefit. Sure, I'll exhibit it for the world to see, but that isn't the point of it; it just gives me a personal feeling of satisfaction of contributing to a world I love.<P>Which is what fanfiction is all about, I think. Doesn't mean I couldn't still be sued, if somebody really wanted to, but then I could just take it off the internet, and look at it myself, and send it to a few choice friends. Which would be perfectly fine by me.<P>------------------
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.<P>Self Proclaimed President-Dictator of the Hooper_X and Squad 37 Fan Club<P>The Future is Noir: <A HREF="http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/</A>
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Postby Kaoru on Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:35 am

So I guess the real question is <I>do you have faith that a Gainax executive(any Gainax executive) won't get uptight if/when they find out.</I><P>I'm confused though, you don't like fanfiction yet you <B>like to write</B> fanfiction? That's the equivalent of someone who dislikes rap music but likes writing rap songs. Why would you contribute to something you don't like?
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Postby Kaoru on Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:42 am

My bad. I keep forgetting that not all companies have the itchy lawyer trigger finger like American companies do.
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Postby Sterling on Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:02 am

Coota: I agree. Most fanfiction or fancomics are absolutely horrible. There are, as usual, exceptions, but they're very hard to track down. Especially since, on something like the Internet, its virtually garunteed that the very worst stuff will be the most popular and spread the fastest.<P>I seem to remember seeing something a few months back about how it can be hard, in America, to get money out of people infringing on your copyrights, never mind getting them to stop, if you haven't been making money off it yourself. This true, or just one more "legal rumor" of the kind that float around with disturbing regularity?<P>------------------
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Postby Balfegor on Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:06 am

I too find contemporary fiction a little dull--not so much because I think I could do better, but because it often seems to have become a little mechanical, and I'm just not able to get into it. Characters with whom I do not sympathise . . . affected little stylistic quirks (_JR_, anyone?) . . . general neglect of plot and other such pedestrian concerns . . . I don't like these things.<P>OTOH, if you want somewhat recent fiction which (depending on how old you are) might have been written after you were born, try Gene Wolfe. He writes science fiction, mostly, and has a nice style. It's a little like Umberto Eco, just simpler (it's SF after all).<P>And of course, Umberto Eco is always fun.<P>And Robbes-Grillet (sp?) has written some nice novellas or something of the sort. Little short (twisty) stories. Interesting, and even engaging, though not my cup of tea.<P>I'll stop naming names, I think.<P>So yeah, contemporary fiction is a little dull, and we overproduce, as a culture, I think, but there's surely some good stuff in there. In the same way, one finds the occasional gem in fanfiction.<P>-Tae
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Postby Strangeone on Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:26 am

Your conceit is overwhelming, Coota. Just because some fanfic authors are bad doesn't mean they all are. They also aren't required to be truthful to every aspect of the characters. You don't know how the characters would react in every situation. Is it a perfect characterization? Most likely not, but is it at least close? That's up for interpretation.<P>Am I a great writer? I don't know, but I practice my skills when I have the chance, as I have generally gotten feedback encouraging me to do more. I never assume I'm God's gift to writing, however.<P>Another problem is the fact the bad writers out there always put enough crap out there that the truly good ones get lost in the waves. Don't go generalizing that you're better than everyone else at this just because you've never read a good fanfic.<P>You just dropped to zero on my respectability meter. If you want to prove how good you truly are, try writing an original piece of fiction rather than trying to reimage the completed works of another man. That way no one can deride you for writing fanfic when you claim you don't like it.<p>[This message has been edited by Strangeone (edited 04-25-2001).]
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Postby Jen Aside on Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:06 am

Actually, I don't tend to read fan stories of ANY kind, 1) because I don't have the attention span, 2) because the ones I've seen tend to be confusing in terms of layout (I happened upon a Gabriel Knight story that was, literally, an illegible BLOCK of text), 3) because it encourages me to think that some things have happened in the official series that haven't, and 4) being a semi-writer (I prefer visuals), I am too prone to finding mistakes and trying to correct them (I've edited an entire 80-page story before)...<P>But this is me. It's not up to me to decide what everyone else likes.
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Postby Coota on Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:43 am

Well, Strangeone, you just hit the small problem that I don't really give a shit what other people think. I'm an arrogant son of a bitch. I admit to that. <P>I *do* write original fiction, and it's the best damn stuff in the world(in my opinion), though the stuff(http://www.burningmoon.net being the primary example) I've got out now is a tad cliche. But I think that story will mature as it goes on. The work I've been doing for the past six months should fix that, though. <P>This will be my second real shot at fan fiction. Only done it once before. Everything else I do is original. <P>So, I'm going to say this again: I want to add onto someone else's work, because I like that world. I don't like other people's attempts so far, and think I could do better.<P>I'm absolutely sure that my work earns my overwhelming conceit. So, really, I've already proved I'm damn good, in my opinion. And if other people don't see it that way, I don't really mind. <P>I have incredibly large amounts of self-esteem. Doesn't mean it's justified in any way, shape or form. If *everyone* had my arrogance, I think the world would be a much better place.<P>Just want to clarify: there's a VERY good chance that I'm not as good as I say. But the immense confidence I have helps my writing to no end. Everyone has their quirk that helps them write: this is mine. <P>------------------
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.<P>Self Proclaimed President-Dictator of the Hooper_X and Squad 37 Fan Club<P>The Future is Noir: <A HREF="http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Coota (edited 04-25-2001).]
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Postby Nick Pavlovski on Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:54 am

Does this mean you no longer "follow the adventures of target-boy...I mean Damonk"?
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Postby Coota on Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:56 am

For some reason, I don't have a problem with contemporary comics. I can read them fine; enjoy them, even. Probably cause I can't draw; one of my many flaws.<P>Oh yeah, and Strangeone, I've been clawing around, looking for all my original work on the web: here's some poems I've written; The Brute is probably my favorite, though I think they're all of at least moderate quality, even if I write about the same stuff again and again.
<A HREF="http://www.entercomsys.com/pat/think/savio/savio.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.entercomsys.com/pat/think/savio/savio.html</A> <P>------------------
There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.<P>Self Proclaimed President-Dictator of the Hooper_X and Squad 37 Fan Club<P>The Future is Noir: <A HREF="http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://burningmoon.keenspace.com/</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Coota (edited 04-25-2001).]
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