Form Levels

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Form Levels

Postby DarkShive on Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:46 am

http://www.egscomics.com/d/20031008.html

This may seem like a random time to explain this, but I don't think it's going to come up in the comic anytime soon...

Humans have two form levels. They have their base form, and they can be transformed. Made simple, humans are at form level 1 when they're not transformed, and at form level 2 when they're temporarily transformed, such as by the gun. If someone is permanently transformed, that new form would be their level 1 form; level 2 only applies if temporarily transformed.

Uryuoms and Seyunolus have three form levels. The first level is the form they came out of their egg as (Grace's half-squirrel form would be first level). Their second level forms are other forms they're able to assume from birth (Grace's full squirrel and human form with antennae would be second level). Third level forms are those gained by other means, such as the transformation gun (Grace's Claire-form is third level).

Uryuoms can sense a slight difference between second and third forms, so they can't really hide it from other Uryuoms if they've been using cosmetic morphing devices. Not that it would make much sense to try and hide; if an Uryuom has hair, it becomes pretty obvious that they've been using a CMD ^^;
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Postby blkmage12 on Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:04 am

So does Elliots cat form count as level 3?
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Postby Deiwos on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:07 am

blkmage12 wrote:So does Elliots cat form count as level 3?


No, I think be Dan's definition, that would be a temporary change to a human being, and would count as his level 2.
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Postby DarkShive on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:12 am

blkmage12 wrote:So does Elliots cat form count as level 3?

The Uryuoms would sense it as a level 2 form; what it should actually be considered is debatable.
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Postby Sqauto on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:16 am

I said this before, thanks for the info Dan.

this should now put that debat to rest.
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Postby blkmage12 on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:24 am

Darkshive wrote:
blkmage12 wrote:So does Elliots cat form count as level 3?

The Uryuoms would sense it as a level 2 form; what it should actually be considered is debatable.


Oh sorry I missed the 'Uryuoms and Seyunolus' part
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Postby Q99 on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:27 am

Darkshive wrote:The Uryuoms would sense it as a level 2 form; what it should actually be considered is debatable.


I assume the same'd goes for his girly form too.


Hmm... what would Ellen sense as? Just normally, or in Venus?
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Postby GA Jedi Knight on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:57 am

Q99 wrote:Hmm... what would Ellen sense as? Just normally, or in Venus?


Normally, she'd be at level one. After all (aside from being a product of the DD and having a TF beam) she's a normal human in all aspects. Her normal form is her base level form, hence level one. Venus, therefore, would be level 2; whether or not it is actually temporary (hasn't been revealed, I don't think), it is still considered to basically be the same as being hit with a TF Gun's beam (though, of course, it does have exceptions, as its power can be enhanced).

Put simply:
Ellen - Level 1
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Postby Q99 on Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:26 am

GA Jedi Knight wrote:Normally, she'd be at level one. After all (aside from being a product of the DD and having a TF beam) she's a normal human in all aspects. Her normal form is her base level form, hence level one.


Oh yea, in actualness, that's how she counts, but like Grace said for the party, she's 'technically transformed'. She's the embodiment of FV5, a level-2 form, even if it's her only one (and thus L1), and thus her Venus form is a modification of a level-2 (and thus sorta like a L3, enough though it's pretty much a L2).



In short, the DwD really messes up the form system, and I wonder how the Uryuom's senses would pick it up, not asking how to actually rate it, just how they'd notice it at a glance.
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Postby GA Jedi Knight on Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:25 pm

Q99 wrote:
GA Jedi Knight wrote:Normally, she'd be at level one. After all (aside from being a product of the DD and having a TF beam) she's a normal human in all aspects. Her normal form is her base level form, hence level one.


Oh yea, in actualness, that's how she counts, but like Grace said for the party, she's 'technically transformed'. She's the embodiment of FV5, a level-2 form, even if it's her only one (and thus L1), and thus her Venus form is a modification of a level-2 (and thus sorta like a L3, enough though it's pretty much a L2).



In short, the DwD really messes up the form system, and I wonder how the Uryuom's senses would pick it up, not asking how to actually rate it, just how they'd notice it at a glance.


Ellen is technically transformed, that is true. HOWEVER, that is only because she is a duplicate of Elliot stuck in female form. In other words, the transformation is permanent, thus, Dan's statement:
If someone is permanently transformed, that new form would be their level 1 form; level 2 only applies if temporarily transformed.

She is in a true level 1 form. As such, her Venus form is a true level 2 form.

A Uryuom probably wouldn't pick up any difference because there is no difference, unless Dan forgot to mention them being able to sense when a person's level 1 form isn't the one they started out with. In that case, that's what they would sense, not anything else.
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Postby Q99 on Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:48 pm

GA Jedi Knight wrote:Ellen is technically transformed, that is true. HOWEVER, that is only because she is a duplicate of Elliot stuck in female form. In other words, the transformation is permanent, thus, Dan's statement:
If someone is permanently transformed, that new form would be their level 1 form; level 2 only applies if temporarily transformed.

She is in a true level 1 form. As such, her Venus form is a true level 2 form.

A Uryuom probably wouldn't pick up any difference because there is no difference, unless Dan forgot to mention them being able to sense when a person's level 1 form isn't the one they started out with. In that case, that's what they would sense, not anything else.


Ah, I had partially overlooked that line of Dan's. Thanks for helping me out GA.
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Re: Form Levels

Postby Michael Brazier on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:36 pm

Darkshive wrote:Uryuoms can sense a slight difference between second and third forms, so they can't really hide it from other Uryuoms if they've been using cosmetic morphing devices.


It should be possible for uryuoms to sense the difference between a transformed human and an uryuom in an acquired form, if they're sensitive enough to distinguish CMD forms and a seyunolu's innate forms. After all, a CMD "normalize" setting acts differently on the two cases.

Also, exactly which of Grace's forms would register as "second level", or innate, besides the human and squirrel forms? If I understand you, Grace should be able to duplicate any of her four genetic parents' forms, or any combination of them, without uryuoms sensing her as in an acquired form.

Darkshive wrote:The Uryuoms would sense [cat-Elliot] as a level 2 form; what it should actually be considered is debatable.


Well, if Elliot used a CMD (as he's about to in the next comic) and an uryuom were there, would the uryuom sense that as a level 3 form, or as a level 2 (morphed human) form, or as a level 2 (innate seyunolu) form? (The last is ruled out, I think, but either of the first two might fit.)
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Postby DarkShive on Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:57 pm

Elliot only has two levels, as with all humans, regardless of the diamonds effects. The uryuoms would sense his cat/girl form as second level in spite of everything.

Grace should theoritically be able to transform into all 4 forms of her parents, though the more parents one has, the less likely they can assume all of the forms. All four of those forms would be second level. A legion of any of those forms would be third level. Please note that the half-squirrel form is 1st level. Her Omega form is technically second level, although all it's basically just her half-squirrel form with the Lespuko aspect not being repressed.
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Postby Xiroth on Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:57 am

Woohoo for random information :) Always welcome, whenever you feel like pulling back the curtain a little.

Interesting the her Omega form is second level. I've been wondering since Painted Black whether her base form had been reset or not. Another thing that I've been wondering about is how much % uryuom a greater seyunolu needs to assume uryuom form and presumably create an egg, since it would be all too easy to see the uryuoms bred out of existance from the creation of too many seyunolus. This semi-answers that, too 8)
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Postby Free Radical on Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:12 am

Darkshive wrote:Grace should theoritically be able to transform into all 4 forms of her parents, though the more parents one has, the less likely they can assume all of the forms.

Would it be possible to get to the point where a seyunolu had so many parents that they wouldn't be able to assume any of their parent's forms? And would Vlad be an example of this?
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Postby m2pt5 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:44 am

Darkshive wrote:Grace should theoritically be able to transform into all 4 forms of her parents, though the more parents one has, the less likely they can assume all of the forms.


Uryuom Grace would be so cute!
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Postby oliverb on Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:58 am

Xiroth wrote:Another thing that I've been wondering about is how much % uryuom a greater seyunolu needs to assume uryuom form and presumably create an egg, since it would be all too easy to see the uryuoms bred out of existance from the creation of too many seyunolus. This semi-answers that, too 8)


I wondered about that. If I read it correctly DNA from two uryuom parents results in a uryuom child (with extra second level forms) regardless of how many other DNA sources are used. I'm going by http://www.egscomics.com/d/20040225.html and http://www.egscomics.com/d/20030909.html

Also I'd hazard a guess that uryuom form can only ever be first level so a seyonolu can't assume a proper uryuom form.
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Postby Michael Brazier on Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:01 pm

If Elliot shifts to his cat form, then Tedd zaps him with the TF gun set on "normalizer", what happens? I think the answer is "nothing", since Elliot's cat form has no time limit for the normalizer setting to alter.

Better: if Elliot shifts to cat form, then gets zapped by the TF gun set on FV5, and an Uryuom is present throughout, does he get confused?

Also, is Grace's human-sans-antennae form a legion form?
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Postby Xiroth on Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 am

Given that it's her pure-human form, I'd hazard that it couldn't be described as a legion form, since there's nothing for it to be a legion with. I'd guess that it (and the with-antennae human/uryuom form) is a second-level form, since it's 'subtractive' - i.e. it's the base form minus some inherent forms. Third-level forms seem to be 'additive' - they contain forms which the base form does not have at all.
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Postby 127.0.0.2 on Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:13 am

Not necessary. During the time, Grace seemed to have improved her transformation capabillities somewhat. Specifically, she seems to be able to choose by will which features of a form get included into her current one and which get supressed. (Example)
According to that, I think, that legion forms can be both, additive and subtractive - or even a wild mix of everything - and therefore would always be level 3 forms.
Thinking of, it would be pretty ironic that, of all things, the forms that make her look most 'normal' - 'Claire' and 'Grace Scuridiae' - would be sensed by the Uryoms as some of her most artificial ones...
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Postby Q99 on Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:24 pm

Michael Brazier wrote:If Elliot shifts to his cat form, then Tedd zaps him with the TF gun set on "normalizer", what happens? I think the answer is "nothing", since Elliot's cat form has no time limit for the normalizer setting to alter.


Elliot still needs to be hit by a female-TF beam while in Cat form (or a cat-female TF beam).
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Postby oliverb on Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:46 am

127.0.0.2 wrote:Thinking of, it would be pretty ironic that, of all things, the forms that make her look most 'normal' - 'Claire' and 'Grace Scuridiae' - would be sensed by the Uryoms as some of her most artificial ones...


'Grace Scuridae' should be a second level form.

'Claire' should be third level.
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Postby Schol-R-LEA on Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:11 am

One way to think of this is in terms of morphic fields. Assuming the idea for the purposes of the series, one would say that a level one form for humans, uryuoms, and seyunolu is the 'rest' morphic field. Over time, this primary morphic resonance will assert itself over an altered form, returning the person to thier level one form. For a permanent alteration, the original resonance would have to be entirely removed or overridden, something that normally isn't possible.

Unlike humans, Uryuoms and their relatives evolved the ability to alter their morphic field at will, but if this alteration is not conciously maintained, their morphic resonance would eventually cause them to revert to their level one form. The Level two forms which an Uryuom can take without assistance are similar enough to their base form that this occurs very slowly, compared to the relatively fast reversion which occurs in humans who have had a their morphic fields altered. Seyunolu, being the result of multiple morphogenetic forms, have secondary morphic resonances from birth (hatching?). This would be true even in the case of roaisol seyunolu whose gene-parent(s) are all of a single species, as the Uryuom egg itself carries a limited resonance from the Uryuom(s) who created it. However, unlike a true Uryuom, they cannot (so far as we've seen) alter their level two forms very much, although Grace's ability to retract her antennae would imply that they have some capacity to do so.

As a side effect of this ability, Uryuom and Seyunolu can retain secondary morphic resonances from the forms they've previously taken; it is easier for them to take these 'level three' forms, even ones which they would not have been able to take unassisted originally.

Another side effect of this would be their sensitivity to other being's morphic fields. It hasn't been stated whether Seyunolu share this ability (I gather they don't), nor if there is any connection between this and the ability to sense ki (I doubt it). Why Grace altering her form also affected her ki is a bit of a mystery; while the various forms may be stronger or more resilient than others, one would not expect it to affect one's spiritual strength (or strength of will, depnding on how you view what 'ki' means).

Elliot's case is unique, because his permanent morphic field was altered magically to retain two secondary forms, something that normally cannot happen in humans. While this is a characteristic typical of a level three form, from what Dan has said it wouldn't seem to be so to an Uryuom. This may imply that the secondary resonances are being actively maintained by an enchantment, and that something which suppressed magical energies may also prevent Elliot from changing. Conversely, it may mean that the Uryuoms would actually sense him as something atypical, but more similar to a level two form than a level three (it's too bad the Uryuom soldier at the end of 'Painted Black' didn't mention this).

Note that Ellen's morphic resonance was not altered by the DD, as she didn't have one prior to her creation.

Finally, I'm guessing that the Verres family is not entirely human; somewhere in their distance ancestry was a Seyunolu. This might explain some of the oddities about both Tedd and his father, such as their hair color and Tedd's obsession with transforming. If this is true, then I would guess than Nanase's parents (and by implication, Tedd's mother) also have some Chimeric ancestors as well. Note than Tedd's hair color is a lavender, in contrast to both Mr. Verres dark blue, and Nanase's bright red (which she may have gotten from her mother?). I wonder what color Mrs. Verres' hair is...

(That fact that this would dovetail neatly with my previous idea that the Verreses and Kitsunes are also related to the Moneymakers has nothing to do with this :P What's more, it may mean that the Verres side are also related to the Greens, which is just as bad if not worse... I'd better quit before I turn Keenspot into another Wold Newton Universe, though it would certainly make for some interesting family reunions, don't you think?)

This is all supposition on my part, of course, and we shouldn't expect Dan to be bound by it; he doubtlessly has his own ideas on the subject. :wink: Still, this seems to be consistent with what we've seen so far.
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Postby Free Radical on Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:06 am

Schol-R-LEA wrote:However, unlike a true Uryuom, they cannot (so far as we've seen) alter their level two forms very much, although Grace's ability to retract her antennae would imply that they have some capacity to do so.

Grace's ability to retract her antennae could just as easily be due to her ability to have legion forms though. As not all seyunolu can have legion forms (I think, the last time Dan mentioned this he told us that all greater chimeras were capable of legions to some degree, but as far as I remember lesser chimeras aren't), Grace isn't always a good example of what to expect from a seyunolu...
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Postby ssokolow on Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:49 pm

Free Radical wrote:
Schol-R-LEA wrote:However, unlike a true Uryuom, they cannot (so far as we've seen) alter their level two forms very much, although Grace's ability to retract her antennae would imply that they have some capacity to do so.

Grace's ability to retract her antennae could just as easily be due to her ability to have legion forms though. As not all seyunolu can have legion forms (I think, the last time Dan mentioned this he told us that all greater chimeras were capable of legions to some degree, but as far as I remember lesser chimeras aren't), Grace isn't always a good example of what to expect from a seyunolu...


There's also the fact that she has Lespuko ancestry and it's associated benefits.
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