Keenspot

by **Lothar Sauvage** on Sat Jun 30, 2001 10:03 am

Zolgar, I believe you may have brought up an issue that is at the heart of most conflicts.
When an issue is viewed from a personal standpoint, people naturally see only black and white, good or bad, right or wrong. The truth is outside of these boundaries, just as the world is not limited to the presence or absence of light. It's not even limited to a compromise; there is a whole demension that is not represented by them, that of color, yet it is real.
When two persons argue about a matter such as right or wrong, it is generally true that neither has the whole picture. As an example, is the grass black or white? Hell, it's not even one shade or hue of green! Is God male or female? Who the hell are you to render the sexual identity of a supreme being that trancends all that?
Bottom line: If you catch yourself in such a pointless discussion it is entirely possible that you don't have the whole picture and/or you are trying to foist your morality on the concience of another. It is conceivable you are both right and / or you are both wrong.
Much of this was discussed in another thread. Read our long discussion about the oath, specificly about justice tempered with mercy. It's a good read.
Regards,
Lothar Sauvage

by **Zolgar** on Sat Jun 30, 2001 10:31 am

*grins* Lothar, when ever you get in an argument like that, remember these words of wisdom: "I'm right and you'r wrong! I win, so nyeh!" <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">Eh, sorry.. Sometimes the psychofreaks sense of humer gets the best of me <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">Anyhoo, you're right.. In most cases. I am (generally) not like that, I'm good at seeing both sides of an issue (And often playing the 'devils advocate' Heh, that's fun), and making point on both myside, and theirs untill either a) I get sick to death of their idiot logic b) They concede I'm right (Which I ALWAYS am <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> J/K) or c) we just give up ebcause neih of us are going to win.I will confess, I am the sort who when I get in to an argument, I do not drop it, though, I never resort to childishness in it. Sarcasm and jokes, yeah <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">(And, as you can guess, I am waaay too much time on my hands here..)------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.It is, our mind.

by **Zolgar** on Mon Jul 02, 2001 1:16 am

Ahh, there is that one..I did not say that if they did not -mourn- they were a bunch of jerks, I said if it did not hurt they were. And you yourself just admitted that the loss of someone hurts..Loss always hurts, heck, even losing a family pet hurts often enough.. A couple years ago, we had to have 2 of our dogs put to sleep in about a month (one was almost as old as I was, the other was about 12 years old and had.. epilepsy I think..). Sometime early last year, my sister lost her baby (I can rant about that kinda thing, but I won't) .. Nothing anyone could have done.. The point is, even losing an animal, or someone you never knew hurts.. So, ofcourse losing a close firend or loved on hurts..[BTW, don't worry about how long it took.. Don't matter to me]------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.It is, our mind.

by **Jenavia Darkstar** on Mon Jul 02, 2001 11:45 am

Zogar I will respond to what you said to me.I aplogizzed that it took me so long to get back been busy. In my group of friends not that long ago someone who was dear to me was killed. I did not morn his death as it is not what he would have wanted. We cellbrated his life With song and drink.Yes it hurt but we saw the greater picture. We knew that one day we would see him again and worying about pain was frutless. Maybe I'm cold . Maybe I'm wird but thats who we do things.
Huggs and Purrs
Jenavia Darkstar CI

by **Silver Adept** on Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:07 am

Wow. What a thread. It swings left, right, up, down, and twists and turns more than a Family Circus cartoon when Billy goes wandering. *shakes his head to clear the cobwebs...* I think what can sum up this entire argument (yep, I'm a generalizer, but hopefully in a good way, this time...) into a somewhat neater package is this: The Order of Jubal does not discriminate. Period. I think there's something on ivbalis.org about that "we do not discriminate based on race, sex, religion... etc..." but I think it runs more fundamentally than that. We do not discriminate. At all. We welcome everyone into our ranks who swears the Oath and promises to uphold that contract. There's nothing in the Oath about "being Christians, we swear..." or "being White Supremacists, we swear..." (examples, don't kill us...) No. The Oath says that WE, the Knights of Jubal, swear... The only real solution to the problem of someone appearing that has a lifestyle or beliefs that you may not agree with is simply this... deal with it or resign. I would rather have one hundred truly chivalrous people than ten thousand people who are only chivalrous to select groups that fit their own mental pictures. Or maybe I'm double-speaking. Chivalry is dying, right? What is "right" anymore? If it is subjective, then I cannot get a truly chivalrous person, because there's no objective standard. Perhaps, then, there is the real heart of the discussion. Is there an objective standard to measure? Is there a "right" to uphold that everyone can agree upon? Is it more "right" to defend a Christian than a Pagan? A white man over a black man? A woman over a child?The answers elude us. But perhaps we're closer than we think. "To uphold the right, even at the cost of our lives..." means that we do what we believe to be right. Speaking generally, there will be agreements on what is "right", but the specifics are left to the individual. "To mete out even-handed justice, tempered with mercy..." means that we do not go to extremes unwarranted. It also means that we study both sides of the argument before reaching a decision (when possible...) "To assist and defend others..." Pretty clear, hmm? It states this regardless of anything, race, religion, preference... that we will defend others who need it. (In this case, I state that the BSA is a good organization, and since they are a private organization, that they are entitled to make the decision that they have... it offends their guiding principles, and since they are not a public organization, they are not subject to the public's opinion unless they want to follow it...) "...and to strive to act with honour at all times." Meaning that we place honour above ouselves. It also means that we set aside personal predjudices in favor of greater good. It was part of my initial design of the Order of Jubal (which I called the Order of Chivalry before this in my head while I worked it out...) to be a sort of "go-between" between the various service organizations, to bring extra support and personnel from one to the other if they needed it, and to foster good ties between the organizaitons. I know this would probably have created an insnae amount of work keeping everyone straight, but I think it would have been worth it. I guess then, that this design translates to the idea that the Order fo Jubal would be a melting pot of it's own, not designed with any particular group in mind and accepting everyone who would swear the Oath. There, I've come a complete full circle back to my original self. The Order of Jubal does not discriminate. Period. Anyone who swears the Oath and lives by it is welcome.

by **TheVagabond** on Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:35 am

Is there any circumstance under which someone would be expelled from the Order?------------------
Sir Louis Martin Carvalho, II
The Vagabond, CI
http://home.earthlink.net/~thevagabondA Knight is Sworn to Valor

by **Zolgar** on Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:15 am

Okay, First off Silver, you're jumping back to an issue I dropped *grins*, but anyways, what you're saying is pretty much what I was, just putting it in a different form of words: "When two who agree to uphold the right disagree on what is right, which is right?"It all boils down to the one simple fact that people are different, and in most cases, what is right is subjective. To me, jumping out of your car and beating someone to death because they cut you off is wrong.. But, mosy don't think about that. Yes, many who do it will later agree it was wrong.. But that's beside the point..As I think of it, here is a strong example for this point: Macveigh (however you spell his name, the guy who did the Oklahoma City bombing), he didn't believe that what he did was wrong. How many others on earth would argu that it was? Probly about 99.9 percent of the population.Then another example, that throws us on to the otherside: There are many who believe eating meat is wrong, and those who hunt are just murderers. Now, I am personally against hunting for sport, but I do not go to that extreme, and I eat meat myself. How many of you enjoy sport hunting? How many of you eat meat?And, a third, this one is biased on my part, but I will put it up anyways: In my opinion, if one is truely 'for the right' they will let those who disgree with them slide. But, many believe that if they accept someone elses opions, they are saying they believe it is good, so they will scream and shout that it's wrong.You understand my point? Yes? Good. No? Bite me and think.Now, we go on to Vaga:Yes, there should be, however, you have to be carefull with that, and either put certain rules in, or, never kick anyone out.. even if they, believeing they are right, go and kill 500 people. What they do is wrong, yes, but, not to them.------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.It is, our mind.

by **Sekhmet** on Sat Jul 14, 2001 10:23 am

Now I see what happens when I go away for two weeks! I miss all the good conversation!I'm not going to really throw myself at this topic now since I'm so late in the game, but I am going to say a few things:1) Religion is a choice. Religion can change. Someone may change their religion, but that doesn't change their intrinsic personality from "good" to "bad".2) Sexuality is a choice. You may not agree with someone's choice, but think of it as a choice of breakfast cereal. Can you be mad at someone over their choice of cereal?3) I am seeing open cans of worms all over the place. Please step carefully, all of you. I like you all too much to see there be permanent rifts among us.4) Treat others as ye would be treated. If you choose to discriminate or "rank" people according to their choices, then I hope you are perfectly willing to stand still in one spot so that everyone else may do the same to you. And it wouldn't do you any good to complain about it either, because it WAS your choice in the first place.Personally, I will never judge on the basis of race, religion, creed, or sexual orientation. If a certain factor makes me feel as though I am in the line of physical harm and discomfort, I will stay as far away as I can manage. However, that doesn't happen all too often (that I want to stay away).At least, I will never judge if I can help it. Being human, I am destined to slip up now and then.NO MATTER what our personal beliefs may be, one fact remains: we are all part of the Knights of Jubal, and when we each came here we knew the perils to our perhaps-controversial-personal-beliefs involved. However, by choosing to come here I think we consciously set aside that fear of personal attack. No one ever guaranteed that everyone on Earth would love you; please let's all be grown-ups and try not to hate each other or be offended by frilly things like "choice". The choices of which we have all been speaking are extracurricular to the Oath we have taken, and I don't think that they should bear at all on this situation.Woah! I ended up saying lots more then I expected. Sorry all! I'll back out of it now and get out of your ways. ::bow::Luv
Sabi, CI------------------
"The waters, they are poisoned."
So reincarnate on some sane planet.

by **Zolgar** on Sun Jul 15, 2001 11:45 am

*sighs* you touched nothong of what I was saying. You were taking my examples as a fact that I was screaming about..All of those things I listed are not acording to what I think, or what you think, or what Billy Bob in some backwater hick town thinks. They are just an example of what someone thinks (assuming they think at all)... The point I was making is Where what one person thinks as right (And here I'll use a totally obsurd example: Eating chocolate cookies with your right hand, and never your left, and never touching anything not chocolate in your left.) And they believe anyone not doing that is in the wrong, and it's right for them to be kicked in the butt. (Yes, it's so absurd none can picture it) Are they in the right for kicking you in the butt when you grab a candy bar with your left hand?I can give a million examples of that, right up to those which are biblically right (Now, I might have to dig up a bible to give you a perfect example).The question simply is, what happens when you have one who believe that something wrong is right, and does that? Perhaps even at the cost of anothers life. (Granted, this does go against the oath, but, some may not see it that way.)Anyhoo, we're beating a dead horse here.....

by **Zolgar** on Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:29 am

It's Irrelevant, yes.. But, I was curious as to what people would say..Im the sort of person who likes to see how strong someones belief is, how they see things..As well, the point was a valid one One person can blieve it's right to do something, while another believes it's unconditionally wrong.I wanted to see how people here would react to that situation (and how they react to someone pokeing their nose in and asking questions).Don't like it? Bite me.

by **Jennet** on Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:45 am

Isn't this whole discussion irrelevant? I mean, we're supposed to help everyone, regardless of their (or our) moral characters.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.hallofworlds.net/pratchett" TARGET=_blank>Ook:</A> For Terry Pratchett Fans Everywhere
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by **Zolgar** on Fri Jul 27, 2001 5:31 am

No, actually that's my normally atitude.. If you don't like what I do, you can bite me. *grins*Didn't mean any offense wth it, and, sorry if it caused any...

by **Jennet** on Fri Jul 27, 2001 6:47 am

Wow, I didn't see that one coming.Sorry I bothered you or anyone here. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/frown.gif">Jennet, CI

by **Sekhmet** on Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:54 am

Jennet darling, I don't think anyone is bothered. I think Zolg just got up on the wrong side of the bed that one morning. We all have bad days, so it's perfectly allowable.Luv,
Sabi, CI------------------
"The waters, they are poisoned."
So reincarnate on some sane planet.

Keenspot

Ok, and to go with, a question to rile things up...

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