[STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

It means "The Goonish Shive."

Moderators: DarkShive, corran_star, Berk

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:34 pm

Because I still want to make books and have it be profitable?

Look, making the comic is still work, and it is, officially, a business. The "hobby with benefits" is simply my philosophy towards its creation and doing it the way I want. That has always been how EGS was supposed to be, and when it's not, that's when the comic suffers the most.

And with that, I've already spent too much time on these forums today, so bicker amongst yourselves if you want. I've said my piece.
El Goonish Shive - My Deviant Art Page
"Those shoes are definitely bi-curious." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
User avatar
DarkShive
Meddling Squirrel
 
Posts: 7595
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:39 pm
Location: Burn the land and boil the sea; you can't take the sky from me...

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:38 pm

This whole colourisation thing is a serious problem. A divide like this between fans and creator can't be fixed with "bicker amongst yourselves". It can be fixed with "Here are satisfactory reasons for my not liking it" or "Do it, but don't expect me to like it".
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Nocturn on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:43 pm

So I know this guy named Tim...
Image

ilikepie wrote:Noxy = love + insanity + sharp pointy objects
User avatar
Nocturn
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:46 am

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:43 pm

Nocturn wrote:So I know this guy named Tim...


Get on-topic or shut up, would you darling?
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:45 pm

Ok, one last post: I've already explained what I don't like about fan colorizations and why I am not coloring it myself. Agree or disagree, but it's my comic and that's how I'm doing it.
El Goonish Shive - My Deviant Art Page
"Those shoes are definitely bi-curious." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
User avatar
DarkShive
Meddling Squirrel
 
Posts: 7595
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:39 pm
Location: Burn the land and boil the sea; you can't take the sky from me...

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:46 pm

DarkShive wrote:Ok, one last post: I've already explained what I don't like about fan colorizations and why I am not coloring it myself. Agree or disagree, but it's my comic and that's how I'm doing it.


I said satisfactory.

PROTIP: If people are arguing with you, they're not satisfied.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Circe on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:50 pm

DarkShive wrote:Having a colorist makes it more of a chore. Seriously, the biggest point for me here is enjoying the making of the comic. EGS is too personal for me to enjoy having it be a collaboration. I could possibly do something else as a collaboration, but not EGS. Hell, if I was going to make something that I wasn't describing as a hobby with benefits and was going for the uber-professional "gonna make the big bucks" deal, I would WANT it to be a collaboration (if for no other reason than to allow me time for my hobbies with benefits).


That's pretty much what I suspected. I'll simply have to be content with B&W EGS.

I'll still miss the color. I know B&W is considered an artform unto itself but it always looks to me like something that isn't finished yet. In my own attempts at art I'm never satisifed at leaving it with nothing but inking for that reason. :shrug: There's no accounting for taste.
"I do not dwell on the past, dahling, it distracts from the now."
- Edna Mode, The Incredibles

"The world is a mess and I just need to rule it."
- Dr. Horrible, Dr. Horrible's Sing A Long Blog

Silly, amateurish artwork available at deviantART.

Got a SecondLife? Find me there as "Circe Silvera"!
User avatar
Circe
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:28 am
Location: Sorceress workshop

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tarvok on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:56 pm

3 Comments:

1. I like the new style! The stark contrasts just land on my eyes right. Something about clear, sharp lines (best I could do... but it's genuine). An earlier poster compared it to "boring newspaper comics", but I'm pretty sure those comics are boring not because of the art style, but the content. I admit, if I didn't already know Catalina was red headed, I wouldn't know now (except for the freckles). Come to think of it, it's sort of like how I never knew Lucille Ball was a redhead until someone told me (never saw her in anything but black and white). And I doubt Dan is going to be able to avoid introducing some sort of shades of gray for folks like Grace and Greg. But these are problems which have been solved before, and colors generally aren't vital to the story... even if she is a redhead.

2. This thread discussion. I find it disturbing. Never mind the content; I'd feel weird if I were the subject of a raging forum discussion with people arguing over what I should do. I'm not sure which is worse: people bluntly saying they think I made a horrible decision with regard to a project I've repeatedly stated is specifically designed for my pleasure, not theirs; or other people who think I need people to protect me from other people's opinions. I suppose it all comes with the territory. And I suppose this comment is hypocritical of me, given my stance in the translations thread.

3. Omitted because I can't figure out a way to express it. :-?

On second, thought. Never mind the not being able to express it, thing. Illusionist, you're a dick. You're the one that bites the hand that feeds you. I find you reprehensible. The original version of "3" was considerably more even handed. Then I read your last three or four posts.
To those who understand
I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
Take me as I am
User avatar
Tarvok
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Clovis, CA

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:00 pm

Tarvok wrote:On second, thought. Never mind the not being able to express it, thing. Illusionist, you're a dick. You're the one that bites the hand that feeds you. I find you reprehensible. The original version of "3" was considerably more even handed. Then I read your last three or four posts.


Yeah, how dare I be anything less than 100% satisfied with Dan after he makes a decision I never wanted him to make? How dare anybody criticise anybody else?

Let's all say nice things, and watch art descend into crap because everyone's too busy being polite so nobody knows when they're going wrong!

I find such a possibility reprehensible. I like EGS, and every time Dan does something that makes me consider not reading it any more, I damn well let him know. That's my duty as a fan.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:08 pm

I guess that makes Noxy and I dicks too for agreeing with you, huh?
"Nice guys finish last......but only because we have farther to go." - Lord Belgarion

"Lesbians are Neato!" - Tedd Verres

My EGS Fanfiction:
Twin Envy, ALTERNATE ENDING ADDED APRIL 23RD '08!
Basic Instinct, COMPLETED AUGUST 1ST '08!
User avatar
CidGregor
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:09 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Aeg'air on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:21 pm

Hey this style is good. I mean I was always optimistic about this I got bogged down with all the moaning. But this style is better than what I expected, it makes it seem more... powerful as an art form.
ImageMy devart page now has stuff!
Inventory
I will soon upload an avvy I have made. Until then I will use this Namin'e avvy for the sake of confusion and the text.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Aeg'air
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:06 pm
Location: fingers typing on the keyboard!

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:26 pm

CidGregor wrote:I guess that makes Noxy and I dicks too for agreeing with you, huh?


Apparently so. Should we make a "Dick Bunny" banner or something?
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:27 pm

The forums go with the comic; there's less activity now than there has been, and it's all opinionated commentary (I include myself here, obviously). The last I'll say of it is that I'd like to still have EGS and it's worrisome that it's become a hobby for Dan (to me) because (again, to me) that makes it less of a priority. The diminished quality doesn't really help to stem those worries. That said, it's Dan's baby and he can do with it what he pleases.

Dan, here's what to do; if you really don't like colored pages, then threaten to close the forum over it. That's where they're posted; and since you're already seemingly fed up with the forums anyway, it's a threat that'll have some weight behind it.
User avatar
Tuitsuro
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3757
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:01 am

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Rhellik on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:31 pm

I've been reading EGS for about 3+ years now and I like the art style a lot. I saw how the style changed and improved a lot.

When Dan started using color I thought it looked nice but it didn't feel like the real EGS. I still prefer b&w (with some greyscale :) )
I find this step going back to b&w a good one, cause I say THIS is EGS.
EGS has only been in color for about a year, with not even that many comics out, so how can people say that "EGS in color IS EGS" :-?

There a lot of successful and good comics out in there in b&w, so color doesn't seem to be the defining quality for a good comic. My brother used to draw his own online comic as well just for his own pleasure and help finding and improving his style. And he got a lot better. So I can understand how important the freedom to do what you want is for an artist.
And I will never stop reading EGS for any design change that Dan might undertake, because the story is just so damn good (my opinion).

I don't think that Dan is God or anything, but I respect his need for freedom as an artist.
Image
User avatar
Rhellik
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:46 am
Location: Location Location!

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tenebrais on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:43 pm

I was apprehensive about the lack of colour when it was first announced, but I think it's worked out well.

The occasional colour panel/comic is more than welcome, and I'd recommend it. But I like the monochrome.
Image
User avatar
Tenebrais
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:23 am
Location: Britland

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Nocturn on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:53 pm

Illusionist wrote:
CidGregor wrote:I guess that makes Noxy and I dicks too for agreeing with you, huh?


Apparently so. Should we make a "Dick Bunny" banner or something?


I'd put one in my signature, too. Tragicly, anything going into the field of design is not my forté.
Image

ilikepie wrote:Noxy = love + insanity + sharp pointy objects
User avatar
Nocturn
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:46 am

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Jervill on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:05 pm

I don't really mind the lack of color in the comics; I'm more concerned with style than anything else, and that didn't change at all.
User avatar
Jervill
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tricia on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:16 pm

Rhellik wrote:IWhen Dan started using color I thought it looked nice but it didn't feel like the real EGS. I still prefer b&w (with some greyscale :) )
I find this step going back to b&w a good one, cause I say THIS is EGS.
EGS has only been in color for about a year, with not even that many comics out, so how can people say that "EGS in color IS EGS" :-?
The thing is, though, even though EGS may not be color...it's at least been in greyscale for quite a while. It at least had something other than just strictly black and white. While it may be what EGS is becoming...it just doesn't look like something EGS proper has ever been. Even the early days with the crappy artwork looked better than this. At least to me.

But these are problems which have been solved before, and colors generally aren't vital to the story... even if she is a redhead.
My point is not that color is needed, per se. Just that *some* sort of contrast is needed. Even if you couldn't tell that Lucy was a redhead, she at least didn't look like a blonde. I know that when it comes to hair color, it's not that big of a deal...but having even just shades of grey adds life to scenes and characters. The characters just seem dull and lifeless now.
Image
I love Darryl, yes I do.
And I love Noxy too.
User avatar
Tricia
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2763
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: Way too far away from Syracuse, New York...

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:37 pm

Guess Trish needs a dick bunny sig-pic too.
"Nice guys finish last......but only because we have farther to go." - Lord Belgarion

"Lesbians are Neato!" - Tedd Verres

My EGS Fanfiction:
Twin Envy, ALTERNATE ENDING ADDED APRIL 23RD '08!
Basic Instinct, COMPLETED AUGUST 1ST '08!
User avatar
CidGregor
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:09 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:50 pm

Frankly, I believe the issue with Illusionist has to do with being pushy with a "this argument can't be over because I'm not satisfied yet" attitude.

There could be shades of gray. Well, more; there are already are a couple in this comic. I'm still experimenting, but I don't want to go overboard. Some hair and clothes with grey in them is something I am considering, but what I am foreseeing is white, light, medium, dark, and black, with everything between white and black used sparingly.

What I worry about with greyscale is falling into a trap of going overboard with it. Too much greyscale is a pain to work with and can actually hurt contrast. I will experiment more with this before next week, however, and see what conclusions I reach.
El Goonish Shive - My Deviant Art Page
"Those shoes are definitely bi-curious." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
User avatar
DarkShive
Meddling Squirrel
 
Posts: 7595
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:39 pm
Location: Burn the land and boil the sea; you can't take the sky from me...

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tyris on Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:12 pm

DarkShive wrote:Seriously, think of something you like doing yourself and enjoy, and imagine it always being followed by someone messing with it.
You know, that does sound familiar for some reason...

...oh, right. Growing up with a little brother.
You can't look dignified when you're having fun.
IC location: wouldn't you like to know? Actually, we'd like to know as well, The Crossover Wars have left us disoriented.
A Fan wrote:Logical, rational universes are distinctly less fun and sexy-awesome than ones with some illogic and irrationality.
User avatar
Tyris
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Beneath a vast mound of curly hair

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Jake R on Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:10 pm

"While I wouldn’t object to it somehow paying all my bills, it is not my job."

^ step one: go make book 3, you lazy bum! </sillymode>


Yay a new comic. Please make / post more instead of repeating the same arguments to deaf ears (/eyes) a few hundred times per day? Thanks =/
User avatar
Jake R
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4138
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:04 pm

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tricia on Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:33 pm

Guess Trish needs a bunny sig-pic too.
Fixed for accuracy.

DarkShive wrote:What I worry about with greyscale is falling into a trap of going overboard with it. Too much greyscale is a pain to work with and can actually hurt contrast.
*nod* Understandable. If it's just like color, but in Black and White, that wouldn't save much time at all. But a little grey can go a long way.

I will experiment more with this before next week, however, and see what conclusions I reach.
Good to hear. :)
Image
I love Darryl, yes I do.
And I love Noxy too.
User avatar
Tricia
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2763
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: Way too far away from Syracuse, New York...

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby nc-edsl on Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:17 pm

Nocturn wrote:
Illusionist wrote:
CidGregor wrote:I guess that makes Noxy and I dicks too for agreeing with you, huh?

Apparently so. Should we make a "Dick Bunny" banner or something?

I'd put one in my signature, too. Tragicly, anything going into the field of design is not my forté.

Tah-dah~
Image
User avatar
nc-edsl
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Miyu Denicalis on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:41 pm

:gonk:
Seems I have impeccable timing for leaving then coming back after. :okthen: Hopefully this won't reopen any arguments, but I feel like I should probably say something about it. Feel free to skip over this post to the very last paragraph if you're grouchy. So, uh...I colour a few webcomics now and then, typically when theres a particular page that feels like it could use colour, or a character I like or its something that the artist themself would enjoy seeing done up. I usually intend it to be something for the artist to enjoy, or to be a sign that I liked it enough to spend time and do what little I could, and figure that I might as well put it up on the forum. I love EGS and it'd been a while without the comic, the fact that it was black and white again, it was hard to resist.
After all this though...
For some reason, it feels like I should point all the way back to page 2, to some of the stuff I put into that spoiler box. Theres a few things there that are kinda easy to skim over and miss, such as where I was getting across the point that I felt it wasn't my colouring making it look good, it was the basic comic. And judging by the following...rumpus, about getting me to colour? The bit where I said "I probably WOULD be happy enough to colour the comics for Dan, if he actually wanted someone to do that." should probably have been emphasized further, but I honestly wasn't aware just how strongly you felt about it, Dan. Or just how people would jump onto that train of seconding and then have it devolve into an argument about what appears to be semantics.
So, in summary, I regret colouring the comic and hope that the true spirit behind me doing it is clear.

=D Hehe, love that banner nc-edsl, very succint. That's fillerbunny, isn't it?
Ortus Denicalis
Raven Winged Angel
Miyu Denicalis
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:56 am
Location: Hampshire, UK

 
PreviousNext

Return to El Goonish Shive

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests