Back-up Outlet 01/05/07

[Freemage]

I think, much like with the "dress code" debate, we're all a bit guilty of universalizing our own HS experiences. Some of us seem to have gone to schools where "bully" is the worst insult imaginable, and anyone conforming to such behavior is regarded as Satan incarnate.

Others among us (myself included) went to schools where the rule, among the kids, was best summed up with Penn & Teller's NPD rule for when they'll cancel a trick: No Permanent Damage.

Personally, I find the Archie/Reggie comparison pretty apt; it really IS the sort of thing they pull on one another fairly regularly--Reggie more than Archie, but I read enough to know that that was a guideline, not a law.

A couple of other things to keep in mind:

1: Open campus in a small town. This is actually a pretty big point. Penny is embarrassed by the incident, but really, she can go home and change, missing one class at most. In my school, if someone clocked you with a chocolate milk carton during a food fight, you were wearing spoiling dairy product for the rest of the day.

2: The broader definition of 'bullying' posted by one of the anti-Aggie folks would JUST as readily apply to Penny--or did you not notice the bit about talking about people behind their backs (like, say, establishing a 'bitch scale'?

3: I do love the folks who are defending Penny's attacks on Meg by saying she must've deserved it. We've been told outright there's backstory to Penny and Aggie, as well.

Again, this was an immature stunt by someone whose age suggests that she's, um, immature. It does not rise to meet the definition of bullying, and it does not render Aggie 'horrible'.

[Sebastian]

Still, she never crossed the line into physical attack. dunno. Might well have been her just imagining it. Then again, she is an extremist, so you never know.

Before she was alone, now she have her own "clique", that could make her a little bolder in her pranks, and there is peer pressure to consider, all is needed is a little comment of someone a little meaner than her (like, let say, Lisa, about what Penny "deserve" and she could just go along with it just not not show herself as a chicken (see the Charlotte incident) it is easy to be unconventional and rebel when you are alone, but when you have friends you want to fit in with them.

[Sebastian]

3: I do love the folks who are defending Penny's attacks on Meg by saying she must've deserved it. We've been told outright there's backstory to Penny and Aggie, as well.

Let's suppose you've read the part of Penny at Karen's party without know anything of the backstory, probably you'd think that Penny what just being a bitch. Now imagine that you come to know about Karen what you already know? wouldn't your opinion of Penny change? Before to judge what she did to Meg I want to know why she did it, if I must judge from the precedents it is probable that she had some good reasons to do it.

[Kuroinu]

Hooh, boy. I hope it's just her imagining it, because if Aggie pulled that shit in MY school, she'd get her ass kicked in more ways than one. And everybody would think less of her and her friends as well, because stunts like that are not cool.

Shaking a coke can would be the lesser of all evils in my old high school. The wrestling and football teams could get away with MURDER. If anyone in the high school would have done a simple prank like this, even the teachers would have had a good laugh. Especially if it was a student that noone liked.

[mcanada]

Wow...

Someone said it a while back, I forget who it was but they said, "If everyone in this comic acted mature... it would be a very boring comic." and they're right. These are Teenagers. Much like Adults, they do very stupid things. I know some people who are older than this and do far worse things to other people.

Penny and Aggie have both been nasty to other people. They've both done things that are less than fantastic. That's humanity for you. From reading the comic I'm sure that if one or the other were in serious trouble they'd help each other out. (Aggie worried over Penny and Rich for instance.) And in all honesty (Past Aggie's Race Card, which she learned damaged herself and her friendship with Duane as well.) they don't really hit below the belt on their comments. (Such as Penny's reluctance to hit Aggie "below the belt" with mother comments.)

Unlike another character in the comic, they haven't tried to frame each other for bomb threats. And I'd like to think after the last few stories, Aggie has matured a little to where she doesn't actively seek to distress Penny. Even if she hasn't - she still has time to mature. Just as while Penny may have been nasty to Meg, a person can mature and change in time and maybe she has... and maybe she hasn't. Only time can tell.

Penny and Aggie are strong enough to where if that soda prank really happened to either, they wouldn't change schools and it wouldn't ruin high school for them.

Wow. Such a ranty first post. *shrug* Nice comic T & G. Good work!

[ARETH]

Penny is too level-headed to be bothered by this; if she threw a fit and/or ran away in tears she'd look even worse, and I'm sure she knows that. I wouldn't be surprised if she honestly believed it was an accident (or at least she told herself it was).

That being said, the prank itself isn't anywhere near as bad as the "back-up outlet" line. She isn't doing this because it's funny. She's freely admitted (to herself, anyway) that she can't handle things that upset her---in this case, at home---and that Penny is nothing more than a way to vent these frustrations.

Most...bullies, for lack of a better word, aren't aware that they hurt someone in order to feel better about themselves. Aggie is not only aware of it, but it doesn't bother her at all. It's a neat little hypocrisy to put alongside the good things she's done.

[Sassy-fras]

Or...now this might be a really big stretch but....maybe Aggie has a crush on Penny?! Ya know...that old fashioned stereotype where if a boy liked a girl he'd run up to her, pull her pig tails, giggle, then run away. No, Aggie's a chick, but hey...times are a'changing! Meh, I dunno...I'm just thinking it's funny how a soda can prank is causing so much debate.

[Aris Katsaris]

Oh no, but let us review that definition (the one I prefer from dictionary.com): a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.
Note that it says nothing about social positions. Penny is obviously weaker than Aggie in some aspects and those aspects are very important and dear to Aggie. Thus she will obviously choose Penny as the "weaker" target.

'Kay, I'm done. Hope that helped. I'm ready to be pwned again. I like a friendly argument

It seems to me that you're pushing the definition of the word "weaker" to its breaking point. Certainly Aggie thinks herself *better* in some senses than Penny, and thinks Penny *worse*. I don't see how that translates to "weaker" in any sense that actually relates to the issue of bullying.

But let's leave this semantic issue, and deal with another point. Suppose that the prank actually happened. And suppose that Penny's next reaction is to burst into tears and run away sobbing.

What do you think the response of your average bully is likely to be to such a reaction, and what do you think Aggie's response is likely to be?

It seems to me that Aggie would be running after Penny to apologize, or atleast guilting herself sleepless for the next week. Because I don't think that Aggie is actually doing anything that she thinks Penny can't emotionally handle. She isn't doing anything that she actually believes *would* hurt her, whether emotionally or physically. She's only doing stuff to Penny that *annoy*.

The shaken-up soda isn't any different to Aggie than e.g. going out of her way to be an annoying customer at the shop where Penny was working, or wearing the same dress like Penny, again just in an effort to annoy.

Aggie's something of a self-centered *pest*. But she's not actually intending harm, not even emotional harm, I think. And I believe she'd be guiltstricken if she thought she'd actually ever caused anything more harmful than mere annoyance.

[Aris Katsaris]

And sassy, have you followed the comic from the beginning? Because it's not as if what you're suggesting hasn't been theorized about even within the comic itself...

[Ollie_Vera]

Again, this was an immature stunt by someone whose age suggests that she's, um, immature. It does not rise to meet the definition of bullying, and it does not render Aggie 'horrible'.

Except I've never seen a 16-year-old continually stalk and harass another person like that unless they were in a gang, rather violent, or had some sort of mental problem. From all we've seen Aggie has no real reason to behave that way and comes across as a relatively well-adjusted and mentally stable girl.

Sure it's a harmless prank, but I'd expect something like that from a 13-year-old, not a 16-year-old who preaches about peace and love.

[Trajedi]

Wait wait, why is anyone thinking Aggie didn't just actually do that? I think it's pretty clear she did.

Well if Aggie could pull off being next to the Vending Machine with a can of Soda Penny would pick shaking it up and able to place it in the can drop exactly when Penny's friend says hi to her then Aggie is my effing hero.

Because 1: She'd have to be crazy good at timing pranks (Like 6th sense good) and 2: Have a sick hand speed.

I realize the comic is fiction but to date it's been realistic when it comes to the laws of science.

But if Aggie did do this then I like I said she is my pranking hero.

[Little Wood]

Oh God, you have got to be kidding me.

It seems to me that you're pushing the definition of the word "weaker" to its breaking point. Certainly Aggie thinks herself *better* in some senses than Penny, and thinks Penny *worse*. I don't see how that translates to "weaker" in any sense that actually relates to the issue of bullying.

Definition of weak: lacking strength of will or character. (Merriam-Webster Online)

Definition of worse: not conforming to a high moral standard; morally unacceptable (Merriam-Webster Online)

If you still don't see the connection here then I give up. These words equate. "Weak" does not always mean "physically/mentally/socially weak." Sorry to burst your bubble, pal.

What do you think the response of your average bully is likely to be to such a reaction, and what do you think Aggie's response is likely to be?

Laugh. I'm not even kidding. Aggie worried about Penny during her relationship with Rich because it lead to physical harm. It would not leave a stain on her that Penny specifically was targetted, but that someone she knew was and "Oh dear Aggie let a hate crime pass her by right in front of her face." Having soda spilled on your face does not equate to physical harm unless her eyes, nose, blah, blah gets splattered and she chokes. I don't know. Anyway, remember that time that Aggie completely denounced Penny's social status with the "because he's black" thing? All she cared about was Duane to be honest. And to be further honest with you, doing something like that certainly is plenty worse than a soda can prank, but I find neither as not bullying.

Say Penny didn't cry and wobble. How does that make Aggie any less of a bully just because Penny can put up with that kind of crap? She may be scapegoating at the same time, but her actions denote that of a bully, pure and simple.

Dude, whether she's annoying her or not, it's STILL BULLYING. NOTE AGAIN:

annoy: to harass especially by quick brief attacks
Harassing someone is a form of bullying. It's done, it's done!

'Kay, proceed to further reply please.

[petala]

As for someone thinking this is a one-off for Aggie--come on! Remember her introduction? Penny and her friends are walking by, minding their own business, chatting between themselves, and then Aggie has to come in and insult them, when they had nothing to do with her. Totally not cool, and again, in my school, that would be seen as bitch behavior. It's also usually the type of action more ascribed to "popular girls" in teen movies.

Then she leaves school in the middle of the day to biy an outfit just like Penny's just to embarass her--personally, that's the "prank" of hers that gets me the most hot under the collar, because UGH. That should be against everything that Aggie's activism stands for. It is such a shallow, petty, priviledged, consumerist action. She basically threw away $300 or so just to upstage Penny--and I just hope it was her own wages, not her daddy's money.

I actually thought all of that was really funny!

[baileygoat]

Well if Aggie could pull off being next to the Vending Machine with a can of Soda Penny would pick shaking it up and able to place it in the can drop exactly when Penny's friend says hi to her then Aggie is my effing hero.

I assumed the girl saying "hi" was Daphne, going by the hair and outfit. It would make a lot more sense for Aggie to organise a third man - so to speak - to distract Penny just long enough for her to grab the can and froth it up.

Organising the prank like that does make it seem a lot more mean-spirited...

[isobel]

Again, this was an immature stunt by someone whose age suggests that she's, um, immature. It does not rise to meet the definition of bullying, and it does not render Aggie 'horrible'.

Except I've never seen a 16-year-old continually stalk and harass another person like that unless they were in a gang, rather violent, or had some sort of mental problem. From all we've seen Aggie has no real reason to behave that way and comes across as a relatively well-adjusted and mentally stable girl.

Sure it's a harmless prank, but I'd expect something like that from a 13-year-old, not a 16-year-old who preaches about peace and love.

This might be the "seething, roiling bond" Sara spoke of. The two of them do have a backstory, and it's not like Penny doesn't engage in this either. Remember both of them getting fired from the bookstore because they were trying to shame the other? Plus, Penny repeatedly singles out Aggie as an example of "what not to do" in terms of fashion and social situations. Aggie is the more immature one, not going to even try denying, but she's hardly the only one in this fight. Penny's had it a lot easier in life-- more money, effortless standard good looks, both parents around-- so she hasn't had to divert her mental and emotional energy into things other than growing up. Aggie's development, however, seems to be stalled three years back or so, about when Melody died. Does that make it okay? No. But it does explain it a lot better than assuming she's mentally ill or violent (A soda prank's just kiddy, not evil).

[Kia Purity]

But the real problem is: Has Penny ever done anything to Aggie recently?

Ever since Sara yelled at Penny, Penny is almost too afraid to come near Aggie... and we have not seen her "attack" Aggie at all.

(This is what I can remember.)

[isobel]

Right after Sara's little speech, Aggie made a friendly overture to Penny and she panicked, probably thinking of said speech. That was when she yelled "worse than a death camp" all crazy-like and then talked a little bit of smack before running off to hide in the bathroom.

[JackFairy]

Penny's almost never done anything bad to Aggie. She did nasty stuff to her like... twice. Everything else was shot-for-shot verbal volleyball. And Aggie usually either initiated or responded in kind and/or worse. Again, Aggie initiates. I go back to the first comic. Who picked on whom there?

I did not think trying to get Penny fired or harassing her at work was at all funny, no. And I definitely didn't think dropping $300 bucks on a completely unnecessary outfit Aggie only wore once was funny--it was a spoiled, petty, ridiculous action, not at all befitting anyone who talks about saving the world and all that. Could have saved a number of animals from being put to sleep for that money. I'm not saying Aggie's "worse than Hitler," but I do find her a hypocrite and a really nasty, petty person to anyone who doesn't conform to her values, and I think I have reason for that. She does the same to her father, to the point where he's scared to share aspects of his personal life with her because he knows she'll throw "tantrums" and is afraid she'll make his homelife really unpleasant if she doesn't approve.

That being said, the prank itself isn't anywhere near as bad as the "back-up outlet" line. She isn't doing this because it's funny. She's freely admitted (to herself, anyway) that she can't handle things that upset her---in this case, at home---and that Penny is nothing more than a way to vent these frustrations. ...Most...bullies, for lack of a better word, aren't aware that they hurt someone in order to feel better about themselves.

Exactly. I don't really care about the terminology--it's not the definition of "bully" that upsets me here. The bottom line still is that Aggie hurts other people to feel better about herself. You can substitute "annoys" for "hurts," whatever. She needs to tear others down to bring herself up. That is in no way an admirable quality--in my eyes, it is one of the worst qualities a person can have.

[Ollie_Vera]

Right after Sara's little speech, Aggie made a friendly overture to Penny and she panicked, probably thinking of said speech. That was when she yelled "worse than a death camp" all crazy-like and then talked a little bit of smack before running off to hide in the bathroom.

I think that was her way of saying "I AM NOT A LESBIAN AND I DO NOT LIKE YOU NO WAY NO HOW!"

[Little Wood]

I think you people are finally getting my point regarding Aggie. However, she's not exactly that terrible of a person. She's gradually trying to change and I have to give her credit for that. Well, the real two tests will be 1) whether or not she will/has committed the prank on Penny and 2) how she will respond to Marshal being the son of her father's girlfriend.

I'm guessing this won't be good, but who knows.
Okay, JackFairy, I agree with you on so many levels about Aggie, but you think that maybe, perhaps by any small chance Aggie remembered to return that outfit after she humiliated Penny? Just maybe she did, we never know... I mean, I don't know what kind of use she would have of it after she wore it once.

Beyond that, Aggie has changed gradually, taking insults a little more lightly (ie; the reason she ran for president was because Penny suggested it), and she's slightly less rude when Penny last did approach her, although I ponder of her motives...

[Akilika]

I don't know why everyone's on about the dress thing. The price was never mentioned, and given that her dad's a teacher and she works at what seems like a vegetarian fast food place or something, she probably doesn't have that kind of money to throw around even if she wanted to. Maybe she found the dress on giant clearance. Maybe she had one of those gift cards that distant relatives send you and manage to miss your "niche" with. I don't see where you guys are pulling out the big numbers--Penny obviously thinks it was expensive, but it doesn't really have to be.


And if we should be condemned for the stupid things we did during high school, there won't be much room left in Hell at the end of everything. Especially considering the utter lack of personal stakes in this . . . Aggie's not doing this to you. Why is it so close to the heart?

I'm glad I can't remember much of high school, given all of this.

[JackFairy]

I do consider the fact that Aggie's trying to change, but it doesn't seem to be working much. Obviously, I'll reconsider this as the story unfolds.

I also did wonder if she returned the outfit, but the original idea of even buying it is so petty that it's bad enough--but also, you cannot return items that have been worn. And especially sale items. As for price, Aggie herself seems to imply it cost a pretty penny (ha!) when she shoots back that her credit card limit is no object when trying to humiliate Penny.

As for why it's personal, uh... I dunno, is it that weird that I am not a fan of anyone getting their jollies by hurting other people, even when it has nothing to do with me? Also, I'm bothered by the fact that the story sets up Penny and Aggie to be, on some level, "equals," and yet I mostly see Aggie abusing Penny. For a while I in fact thought that the point of this strip was to be a clever reversal of the usual highschool stereotypes, where the "outcast rebel girl" was the mean, petty bully, and the "shallow popular girl" was in many ways her victim, who tries to strike back sometimes but is held back by her basic decency.

[sun tzu]

Wait wait, why is anyone thinking Aggie didn't just actually do that? I think it's pretty clear she did.

It seems pretty clear to me too. A fantasy wouldn't have its own thought bubble (at least not in this context).

[Aris Katsaris]

Oh God, you have got to be kidding me.

Sorry to burst your bubble, pal.

'Kay, proceed to further reply please.

No, I don't think I will "proceed to further replies". You're being overly aggressive and personal, and you can't seem to believe that I honestly believe what I'm saying.

So, I'm not going to proceed to further replies, except to note that the word "weak" when used in the context of "bullies tend to go against the smallest and weakest", does not mean "weak in moral character", the same way that it does not mean "small in moral stature", or whatever.

So, believe what you want, "pal". But don't call me "pal" again, please.

And "completely denounced Penny's social status"? What the hell does that even *mean*?

<i>How does that make Aggie any less of a bully just because Penny can put up with that kind of crap?</i>

I've spent a lot of time detailing to you why.

[Little Wood]

So, I'm not going to proceed to further replies, except to note that the word "weak" when used in the context of "bullies tend to go against the smallest and weakest", does not mean "weak in moral character", the same way that it does not mean "small in moral stature", or whatever.

Of course, that's Aggie's assumption, that Penny isn't as wonderful, pure, and "moral" as she is. However, we all know that isn't true.

<i>How does that make Aggie any less of a bully just because Penny can put up with that kind of crap?</i>

I've spent a lot of time detailing to you why.

Yea, and apparently you haven't read my analysis of your response.
But that's ok, buddy, not my issue. Sorry to see that you have a tough time enjoying a normal argument. A few people here have used the term "burst your bubble" so I'm not sure why you take a offense at that. My shocked remark, well, when have we not had anyone respond to that? Still, my apologies, take them or leave them. This is just who I am. Perhaps I'm the "bully" here. Who knows, who knows.