Yo' Momma! [11/3/06]

[Missie]

Devil's advocate: Maybe Marshall is adopted and thus his issues lie with his biological mother and not Charisma, who may have adopted -because- she had some fertility issue or something and had her tubes tied (she seems rather young for a doctor to agree to that, most of the time if you're under 35 a doctor will strongly suggest you shouldn't or refuse to perform the surgery)

I don't really think that, but it's a possibility that no one's suggested yet.

Just to point out - it's probably unlikely in the context of this comic, but it's possible she has/is a carrier for some kind of genetic disease. That would be a legitimate reason for a woman under the age of 35 to get their tubes tied. Also, if women really, truly push the idea that they don't want kids, *ever*, they can get a doctor to perform the surgery. It can be difficult, but it's possible.

That said, I kind of read this as she made a mistake, and while she owned up to it (took care of the kid, etc), she took steps immediately afterwards to ensure that mistake wasn't repeated. I kinda feel like she does look at Marshall like he's a mistake, and that could certainly make a kid uneasy with the aspect of sex - especially since he sees a woman he looked up to taking advantage of men. Maybe he's scared the same thing will happen to him. Makes me feel kind of bad for him.

The way my dad acts towards women definitely steered me towards my own gender. I'm not completely lesbian, but an amazing facimile! My point being, he put me off men for a long time. Marshall's mom does seem to be putting him off of women. Not necessarily putting him *on* to men, but making him think twice about letting women close to him. Which is really understandable.

[Saint_37]

You know that the genius of these comic artist/author is? They can make everything so obviously obvious that it's obivous what's going on but as the same time you have a bamillion questions that make you think wait this might no t be obvious anymore so that means none of these thigns are obvious either so obviously nothing is obviouly obvious about this comic. Becuae I mean, obviously now that we know who Marshall's mother is we've found out who 'she' aka 'you-know-who' is, and obviously that's why Marshall is afraid of sex because he's obviously been put off by his mother's nonchalant attitude towards it. And obviously this is clearly the reason they don't share heart to heart conversations or a deep relationship. Obviously. Unless of course, it's not obvious because we still don't know jack about Charisma and how she works and how she relates to her son, and that it may be possible that Marshall has his issues with something or someone else.

The sheer genius is that the obvious is no longer the obvious when it is obivously pointed out that the obvious is not really all that obvious after all.

If this post has made sense to you, please have your head examined immediately.

[Lady Ladile]

^ Hmm, that actually made sense to me, guess I'd better check about making an appointment for an examination then....

Though I'm not always very good at conveying my thoughts via a message board, I do have to agree that it's probably too early to be making very many judgements about Charisma since we hardly know anything else about her beyond what we've seen in these few strips.

For what it's worth, I'm still more inclined to believe that Marshall's issues stem more from past trauma with a girlfriend than from his relationship with his mom. Then again, I didn't think that Charisma was Marshall's mother either, so what do I know?

[Andie Nicole]

By the looks of things, you folks are forgetting one relatively simple explanation for her actions/responses. Parental concern.

Consider her own attitude towards sex (healthy, part of a relationship etc).

Consider that nearly all the other boys in the comic seem to be getting their groove on.

Then consider that Marshall isn't.

He hasn't expressed any overt interest in religion, so it doesn't appear that he's holding back due to religious beliefs. She knows from her own youth that guys Marshal's age tend to be sexually active or at least are interested in sex.

Not a peep out of him on that subject. (And if she cleans the house, the lack of dirty mags and weirdly smudged underwear, may also be weirding her out.) Possibly, she may have thought him gay, well letting him work at the gym would soon tell her whether he was or not and get the ball rolling, if he was. Instead, she learns that he does appear to be interested in at least one girl.

Possibly, he's expressed to her his affection for Karen, or she simply drew her own conclusions based upon their interactions in the gym.

Yet still no bed creaking or trying to sneak off, hickeys etc etc.

So she tried to force the issue a bit, figuring that no guy will say no to a girl, for whom he has romantic feelings, and especially not if she shows up naked with him in the shower.

Hence her asking, and considering his responses, she's figured out that her ploy has failed and thus the rather testy answer to his question.

So what causes Marshall's attitude towards knocking booty? She might not even know herself, hence her trying to force the issue a bit. Figuring, he'll losen up a bit, once he gets laid.

It's really no different from the cliche of the father taking the son to a brothel on his age of majority.

My friend's dad is offering him 25 or 50 bucks or something if he gets laid before he goes back to his mom's house. Same thing. His dad's afraid he's gay.

Sure, people would think, if it were his dad, had he one around, that it was wrong, and he was a bad father, but it would be easier for them to understand, and it wouldn't be so unusual at least.

[Sebastian]

But wait wait wait. Aggie's dad knows Aggie likes Marshall, yeah? And he also knows Marshall is Charisma's son, yeah? Or am I misreading that last comic?

I think that Nick know Charisma have a son, but he don't know who he is, and i don't think he know who is the Marshall Aggie is crushing over, either, so even if he meet Marshall he wouldn't know that he is that Marshall.

[IS_Wolf]

Is everyone else forgetting that Charisma encouraged Karen?

Nope, I even jotted down why I thought she did that.

[missMagdalena]

Well, I guess that explains how Marshall knew that, right?

I thought that Charisma was honestly trying to ask Karen to help close up until I looked at the comic again. That smile is really not helping me give her the benefit of the doubt. I can understand where she might be coming from, but I feel very sorry for Marshall. It's clear that she doesn't understand him at all, and neither does Karen, and I wonder if he really has anyone he can talk to.

Oh, and I also feel quite bad for Aggie. From the little we've seen (hint hint, return to that storyline please!) she's pretty upset about the whole phone sex thing. So first she finds out that her father is in an, ahem, intimate relationship with someone - and then she finds out it's the mother of the one that got away. It could just strengthen the blow of losing Marshall to Karen.

[Tsarevna_Erin]

That smile is really not helping me give her the benefit of the doubt.

Also, her subtle needling ("Did anything INTERESTING happen?") seems to seal the deal. I don't know how I feel about that. Part of me thinks that maybe she thought Karen would consider it, but not go through with it.

Oh, and I also feel quite bad for Aggie. From the little we've seen (hint hint, return to that storyline please!) she's pretty upset about the whole phone sex thing. So first she finds out that her father is in an, ahem, intimate relationship with someone - and then she finds out it's the mother of the one that got away. It could just strengthen the blow of losing Marshall to Karen.

See, here's where I think it could get interesting, but I don't see the main tension between Aggie and Marshall. If we're to assume that Charisma is "You-Know-Who," and that Karen's speech to Marshall that she wasn't "some stranger" and he wasn't her "man-ho" applies to Charisma's prior relationships, then I guess that means that she's done her fair share of one-night stands and hook-ups, and that might be all Marshall is used to. This relationship with Nick, then, might be a pretty big deal. Also, it's possible that Charisma's "man-hos" weren't exactly sterling material themselves, so Marshall might gravitate toward Nick, a steady guy with a good job who adores his mother, as a father figure, and might lobby for Charisma to "keep this one."

Charisma, on the other hand, is probably not Aggie's idea of an ideal stepmom, the phone-sex thing aside. Aggie doesn't get on with Karen, and as others have pointed out, Charisma and Karen have very similar personalities. Charisma also knows how to get Nick to do what she wants - something Aggie herself had a monopoly on in the years since her mother died. Aggie's going to resent her and might push for Nick to drop her, which might be counter to Marshall's wishes. So it would be interesting to see Aggie and Marshall openly antagonistic toward each other because they both want opposite things.

OR, Marshall might come to view Aggie as a "little sister," of sorts. He might unload all his Karen issues on her, and I could see that turning her off (NOT the no-sex thing, but that Marshall is obviously caught up in a codependant thing with Karen). I could see them becoming good friends and confidantes, and Aggie might help soften the blow when and if Marshall and Karen break up by pointing him in the direction of someone else - one of the Omega Sisters, maybe? (NOT Charlotte). And I could see Marshall steering Aggie toward someone who would reciprocate her crush. I'm pulling for Ipod girl or Sara, but I'll take an as-yet underexplored male character, or maybe Rich.

[L-ren]

One thing that interests me that the comic hasn't even approached yet is the issue of Marshalls father. I can see at least three plausible possibliities right now:

1. Marshall's father was a one night stand, which would mean he really was 'a mistake' like many people have interpreted Charisma's last comment.

2. Marshall's father left Charisma because Charisma was caught cheating. This would also further explain why Marshall doesn't like the idea of casual-sex, or does not trust women.

3. (This one is my favourite) Marshall's father... DIED! (Dun dun dun). I think it would be totally ironic if this was the case because Aggie would get her wish come true (she wanted to be with someone who could relate to having their parent die). Then again, I don't think this is going to happen because I think if Charisma had a dead husband she would have a different bond with Nick than she does now, but you never know!

[Frances]

Also, her subtle needling ("Did anything INTERESTING happen?") seems to seal the deal. I don't know how I feel about that. Part of me thinks that maybe she thought Karen would consider it, but not go through with it.

Might she have thought that it's something they're already doing? She does seem to have a rather... uhm... I almost want to call it "yeah, s**t happens" attitude towards sex. Very much taking it as a given.

(Right now I'm just hoping Aggie's dad doesn't get hurt.)

L&c,
F

[TheTeague]

3. (This one is my favourite) Marshall's father... DIED! (Dun dun dun). I think it would be totally ironic if this was the case because Aggie would get her wish come true (she wanted to be with someone who could relate to having their parent die). Then again, I don't think this is going to happen because I think if Charisma had a dead husband she would have a different bond with Nick than she does now, but you never know!

Or Marshall's father has died, but before he did, Charisma and Marshall's Pop had an open swingers' relationship that was abruptly abandoned once she was pregnant with Marshall. After he died, he left the gym to her (why it would be called "Bronzo's" instead of "Charisma's") and after greiving, or as a coping mechanism, went back to her free-love ways rationalizing it that at least now she wouldn't be carrying on extra-marital hanky panky in front of her son (not literally in front of him, of course).

**"Bronzo" was of course a nickname he attained from either having a deep, deep tan or winning the Bronze medal in the olympics/winning consecutive bronze medals in other competitions. The gym was a struggling money-pit until Charisma took over and through fine business acumen and providing eye-candy to possible customers, made it the success it is today.

[IS_Wolf]

One thing that interests me that the comic hasn't even approached yet is the issue of Marshalls father. I can see at least three plausible possibliities right now:

There's a fourth one actually.
She was in a steady monogamous relationship, though not yet married.
She got pregnant, and he got cold feet and dumped her.
She's been using sex as an ego band-aid ever since.

Well, maybe until she met Nick.

As for the gym, she could've inherited it from her folks, just as likely as inheriting it from dead hubby. Or even that she built it up herself, as a perfect way to find some prime.... meat, if you'll pardon the pun.

[ria]

Maybe my brain is rebelling or something, but I don't remember Charisma sleeping around -- she's just not particularly secretive and demure about her relationship with Aggie's dad.

Why this assumption from near everyone?

[Trollroot]

I think his mom is one of the reasons for Marshalls traumas, but not the whole of it.

I am not sure that she has been all that as a mother. He told Aggie "You got to take care of yourself. No one else will!" That does not exactly argue a sheltered upbringing.

But when working out, didn't he also muse that you knew where you stood with weights, they wouldn't crush your heart?

Can't quite find the reference, but I seem to remember the line. "Crushing your heart" is not really a mother/son kind of thing.

It will be interesting to see how he relates to Aggies dad, anyway.

And I wonder what Charisma sees in Aggies dad? She can't be that superficial, he never struck me as a biological plussvariation.

[Chrysee]

Maybe my brain is rebelling or something, but I don't remember Charisma sleeping around -- she's just not particularly secretive and demure about her relationship with Aggie's dad.

Why this assumption from near everyone?

Because she's an adult woman. And when adults have sex outside of a marital relationship and don't try to hide it, it's scandalous somehow ;P or something

[iRobot]

It's really no different from the cliche of the father taking the son to a brothel on his age of majority.

Of course, fathers like that are just creepy and disturbed themselves.

[oddtail]

Maybe my brain is rebelling or something, but I don't remember Charisma sleeping around -- she's just not particularly secretive and demure about her relationship with Aggie's dad.

Why this assumption from near everyone?

Because she's an adult woman. And when adults have sex outside of a marital relationship and don't try to hide it, it's scandalous somehow ;P or something

*blinkblinks* umm. What?

(yeah, not the most brilliant comment ever. It's just, I can't relate to that, because I don't see why/where that would be true.)

And frankly, I'm surprised too. All we know about Charisma is that she apparently likes sex, and is interested in Nick. And everyone assumes that makes her some kind of nympho, or I don't know what else... geez.

[isobel]

IMO, the reason everyone's assuming Charisma is a nympho or a promiscuous woman is because of the "you-know-who" and "it doesn't make you her" comments. We've seen her pressure Nick into sexual activity (of some sort) a couple of times-- the hookup scene in the hall while he's giving his students one of many pop quizzes, and her overriding his concerns to have phone sex. This might be healthy, she might have intended the phone sex as a playful means of defusing Nick's anxiety, but then discussed meeting the kids later, perhaps not all the pop quizzes were so she could all but mount him in his office/the hall (although that's the impression I got). We may be seeing her healthy adult sexuality through a skewed perspective in this arc. But from what we know, she's a lot like Karen, and Marshall's had trauma, so we kind of assume it was due to her. Whether or not it actually is.

Me, I think some of it might be from his mom, but more of it is from a past girlfriend or fling, because his issues seem to run too deep for just a "my mom was loose and I feel prudish because of it."

[Sebastian]

Maybe my brain is rebelling or something, but I don't remember Charisma sleeping around -- she's just not particularly secretive and demure about her relationship with Aggie's dad.

Why this assumption from near everyone?

Because she's an adult woman. And when adults have sex outside of a marital relationship and don't try to hide it, it's scandalous somehow ;P or something

mmmh, no. I think it si more that she hit on Nick pratically the first moment she looked at him with what essentially was a pick up line/excuse, that she seem not to have the slightest intention to meet his daughter, that she seem to have sex with Nick while he is at work (in a school, no less), that she seem to have sex phone with him while she is in a public park, you know nothing definitive, but are all things that tend to adding up.

[BlueTez]

(why it would be called "Bronzo's" instead of "Charisma's")

maybe its just me but i always thought that it was a play on Gold's Gym, but i could be wrong.

[Freemage]

Honestly, the only bit that I hold against Charisma is the "tubes" comment. Everything else is simply the behavior of someone who is sexually aggressive (there IS a difference between that and promiscuity, folks) and adventuresome.

[LostPirateTX]

See, that's the thing. I wouldn't dislike her for being promiscuous. Stan's promiscuous, and except the beating incident pre-election, I like Stan. Brandi's promiscuous, and I like Brandi.

It's the aggression that's the thing I dislike so viscerally about Charisma. She's TOO aggressive, even over Nick's concerns. She comes off as almost predatory, to me.

[Freemage]

See, that's the thing. I wouldn't dislike her for being promiscuous. Stan's promiscuous, and except the beating incident pre-election, I like Stan. Brandi's promiscuous, and I like Brandi.

It's the aggression that's the thing I dislike so viscerally about Charisma. She's TOO aggressive, even over Nick's concerns. She comes off as almost predatory, to me.

Meh. Over Nick's 'concerns', but hardly over his refusal. Nick is a grown man, once married and with a teenage daughter; he is fully capable of saying, "Look, I can't right now, but I'd like to talk to you later tonight, okay?" and then hanging up. Unless you're prepared to liken him to an alcoholic being offered a drink, Charisma's not doing anything wrong on that front.

[Tsarevna_Erin]

Nick is a grown man, once married and with a teenage daughter; he is fully capable of saying, "Look, I can't right now, but I'd like to talk to you later tonight, okay?" and then hanging up. Unless you're prepared to liken him to an alcoholic being offered a drink, Charisma's not doing anything wrong on that front.

The only problem I have with your statement is that Nick is a widower who presumably has been celibate for the entire time his wife has been dead. He's not an everyman who divorced his wife - he lost her under tragic circumstances. T and Gisele have hinted in their Q & A thread that Nick and Melody's marriage was a happy one, so I doubt Nick did any diddling on the side when she was alive. I also think that they were probably married, at minimum, when Aggie was born, so that's 11-12 years at minimum - more than enough time to get used to a certain sexual style of one person. No one knows what Melody was like as far as sex, but Nick's befuddlement with Charisma seems to indicate that Melody wasn't as rapacious. He's not used to that and he's fumbling a little.

That said, you're right in that it's on him to tell Charisma what will and won't fly in their relationship. Getting it on when Nick is supposed to be TEACHING? Not cool, and I'm not going to lay all the blame on Charisma's doorstep. I'm hoping that in the strip where Nick says that his students have reached their limit of "pop quizzes" was his way of telling Charisma - "We're not doing this at my job anymore."

Your alcoholic metaphor is probably more apropos than you realize. None of the strips had indicated that Nick had been approached by any woman. He was simply "thinking" about getting back into the dating game. Now a gorgeous hardbody with probably above-average sex skills has made herself available to him. He's what my brother calls "p----y" (rhymes with wussy) drunk. After a drought of three years, and maybe more than that if Melody died of a lingering illness - he's getting sex from a hottie. Hell yeah he's going to dance to her tune until he sobers up.

[LostPirateTX]

I more or less agree with what Tsarevna_Erin said; sure, Aggie's dad could have been a little firmer in expressing his hesitation, but given the position he's in, he probably doesn't remember/know HOW to be assertive in a relationship. While that's not inexcusable, as he IS an adult and should be able to take a stand, it's still kind of creepy/predatory the way Charisma takes advantage of that.

It's also probably very telling that she isn't more interested in meeting Aggie or more concerned about how this relationship is going to affect Nick's daughter and THEIR relationship... that doesn't indicate much of an emotional investment. The tube-tying comment to Marshall also says something about Charisma's lack of empathy.

I get the impression that she's like Stan claims to be-- just in it for fun.

As a female, if I were dealing with a man who were as pushy in a relationship and as dismissive of my very major concerns as Charisma is, I'd be seriously freaked out.