Schlock jumps ship

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Postby Kazriko on Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:56 am

I went back and read the post, and Howard really said nothing bad about Keenspot. He merely used it as a baseline reference for ad revenue. Tycho only said a single bad thing about keenspot in the whole article, as kind of an opening jab.

Howard had been sending the information to various people including Gav and Chris according to what I've read here. That information is extremely handy to anyone who is looking to put some advertisement on their site without spending alot of time doing it and also as a possible conduit for both Keenspot and the Keenspot Cartoonists to increase their income by 50%.

Basically, Howard was handing out an icepick for various websites to break the ice between them and Google adsense. It's strange to me to blame Howard when one of the people he gave the icepick to turned around and jabbed it in Keenspot's ear in one brief line, then turned around and started spreading the icepick using their own massive distribution channel. Blame Tycho for his one little jab. Howard was trying to connect a world of web comics to an effective turnkey advertising setup. If it benefits his comic by being exposed to the same information distribution channel, hey, it's not "Schlock Philanthropist" you know.

BTW, wrightc. Love your comic. I've been following it since the old days when it was in the OS/2 Ezine. :)
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Postby Kurtz on Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:57 am

carsonfire wrote:This is what's called being a bully, and the webcomics community has it bad.



You know what a bully is, Carson? Somebody who holds their archives hostage until their readers donate enough money.
Last edited by Kurtz on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wrightc on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:02 pm

Well I suppose it was only a matter of time.
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Postby Kiwi on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:03 pm

wrightc wrote:Well I suppose it was only a matter of time.


GROUND FLOOR
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Postby Dr_Nick on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:05 pm

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Postby Kazriko on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:06 pm

Kurtz wrote:You know what a bully is, Carson? Somebody who holds their archives hostage until their readers donate enough money.


Sigh. I really wish all this bitterness between Keenspot and Kurtz would go away. I like PvP, I like lots of the comics on Keenspot. I think Keen's business model makes sense for comics that are starting out. It's really too bad that some old dislike has kept going for so long...

Edit: BTW, Kurtz. I think you get at least one of the below buttons in my sig. If you feel like it. Wear it proudly. After all, Bobby has said the same of a great number of honest, talented people. :)
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Postby Matt Wilson on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:09 pm

wrightc wrote:Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant, but that reads an awful lot like "the cartoonists are mad because Howard is successful, and they're lashing out."

Just replace "because Howard is successful" with my previous post and you have your answer. Howard's success is merely one indirect catalyst of this whole thing. The only reason this thread really is where it's at is because of Tycho's offhand comment. One comment spurs people to throw themselves into a firefight that doesn't exist and isn't about them, and they're all too willing to dunk themselves in kerosene. Comparing Howard to murdering fanatics? Classic KeenSpot(tm)! (thumbs up)

THIS THREAD WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY KEENSPOT(TM)!

By the way, I hope everyone will be happy when this thread eventually balloons, gets linked to by Penny Arcade, and the cartoonists responsible start seeking scapegoats to pin responsibility on.
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Postby josh l. on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:09 pm

Kiwi wrote:
wrightc wrote:Well I suppose it was only a matter of time.


GROUND FLOOR


GROUND FLOOR, YO.

NOW I WILL NEVER POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN.
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Postby Kurtz on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:11 pm

Kazriko wrote:
Kurtz wrote:You know what a bully is, Carson? Somebody who holds their archives hostage until their readers donate enough money.


Sigh. I really wish all this bitterness between Keenspot and Kurtz would go away. I like PvP, I like lots of the comics on Keenspot. I think Keen's business model makes sense for comics that are starting out. It's really too bad that some old dislike has kept going for so long...


I don't dislike everyone at Keenspot.
I'm just defending my friend, Howard, who has done nothing wrong.
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Postby wrightc on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:15 pm

Ah, that's fair enough Scott, but Carson wasn't calling *Howard* a bully. He may well have been calling both you and Tycho a bully, but he left Howard out of that particular loop.
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Postby Kazriko on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:16 pm

Kurtz wrote:I don't dislike everyone at Keenspot.
I'm just defending my friend, Howard, who has done nothing wrong.


Yep! See my post above defending Howard. I know you don't dislike most of the cartoonists. But some of Keenspot's management in general harbors ill will toward you. That's unfortunate. :(
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Postby Pascalle of Lepas on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:40 pm

Kurtz wrote:I don't dislike everyone at Keenspot.
I'm just defending my friend, Howard, who has done nothing wrong.


He really didn't do anything wrong. And Tycho just did what Tycho does best. If YOU were Howard, and you had just left Keenspot's cross-promotional powers to make it on your own would YOU turn down the shot to get a shout from PA? The answer is NO. It makes perfect sense.

The real deal here is this doesn't need to turn into another big shabang like that last bit of crap. I really get tired of all the drama that the webcomic community throws around. I like Penny Arcade. I like PvP and I'm a member of keenspot. The point is we're a bunch of schlubs who all like making and reading comics. The more bitter we act towards each other the more the lines get divided like some proverbial trench, and then the fans are forced to take sides, which isn't good for anyone.

I know I'd never say or do anything that would prevent my readers from being able to enjoy Penny Arcade, PvP, or any of the comics on Keenspot, Brainstorm ltd, Modern tales, keenspace or ANYWHERE.

Bottom line to all of this: Howard had outgrown Keenspot. It happens. He got a sweet link from Penny Arcade to kick off his new solo gig. I'm happy for him. He's a nice guy.

Tycho and Gabe don't like Keenspot. It's no secret, but starting fights about it won't make them like Keenspot any more.

and Keenspot doesn't steal anyone's money. Our site made no money before we joined Keenspot, and now it does. :wink:

and that's all you'll hear from the likes of me!
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Postby wrightc on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:44 pm

Well there you go... I really can't think of anything to say to that but "yeah, ok, that's reasonable to me."

Now everyone read through the Zap! archives. That's what I did this weekend. Well, for part of it anyway. And with that, I'm moving on.
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Postby Kazriko on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:46 pm

Lepas loves art wrote:and that's all you'll hear from the likes of me!


And it was very well stated too. Thank you!

The "take all your money spot" comment wasn't really deserved. The artists signing up to Keen agree to splitting the income in exchange for the cross promotion. But that's just Tycho being himself. He has opinions and is entitled to share them with his audience.
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Postby Kurtz on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:50 pm

wrightc wrote:Ah, that's fair enough Scott, but Carson wasn't calling *Howard* a bully. He may well have been calling both you and Tycho a bully, but he left Howard out of that particular loop.


It doesn't matter WHO he's calling a bully. Considering how he bullied his readers, he's a hypocritical ass either way.
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Postby Piratezim on Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:59 pm

i wish i could create drama like this. but alas, i shall forever remain a simple forum troll.
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Postby macclint on Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:03 pm

i wish i could create drama like this.


I hear ya. My pageviews would go through the roof!
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Postby carsonfire on Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:05 pm

wrightc wrote:Ah, that's fair enough Scott, but Carson wasn't calling *Howard* a bully. He may well have been calling both you and Tycho a bully, but he left Howard out of that particular loop.


I wasn't even calling Scott a bully, I was calling Tycho a bully. I said that Scott shares the problem of seeing Keenspot as being a negative force on the lives of the individual cartoonists.

At least in Scott's case, he's always seemed to me to be at least a bit more concerned about the individual cartoonists, whereas we're all ants to Tycho for all I know.

As for the archives thing, I've been taking better pain medications since last year, and I'm not in nearly the desperate state of mind I was in, then, physically and financially. Now, with the pains in my head and back under control, I can look the situation overall more clearly.

And you know what? I'm glad Scott brought that up, because it's a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Webcartoonists delight in the misfortune of others.

A broad generalization, of course. But those of you to whom this does not apply to can see what I mean, I bet.

My financial state has been very precarious for years. I'm very lucky to have a place to live right now... I can't go into the details, but if I lost the trust of my landlord, I could be out on the street very quickly. And I wouldn't have anyplace to go, most likely, but some kind of shelter. I'd lose the rest of my possessions (some were destroyed in a flood a couple years back, a huge backwash coming off of some mountains... lucky not to lose *everything*)

This much has not changed: if I lose my home, Elf Life would have to be taken offline because I would no longer have any direct control over my own work

Yes, I'm guilty of pushing my art sales too hard last year. The removal of my archives and the ruination of my life were the circumstances I was desperately trying to *avoid*. My series and my work had fallen on hard times because of a too-extravagant story and huge loss of interest by readers, so I had to make do with what little I had left. And, yes, part of that was a dramatization of "removing the archives". I *gasp* moved a few recent comics into another folder for a short period of time. Tie me to the stake and burn me!

And you know who came through for me? Not all these blowhards who are always criticizing Keenspot for giving us a raw deal. You know who finally came through for me?

KEENSPOT

Keenspot advanced me money to save my desparate situation at the time. Chris Crosby even offered to put me up if I really did lose my home, which really was a serious danger.

Sure, I could make even more money from Keenspot. I could make more money from Keenspot by not having such a screwy life, and keeping up my comic more, by doing more to advance the popularity of my comic myself. The server/ad revenue/everything else is a great deal for someone like myself, who has no stable family life and lives on pennies. The deal that we have with Keenspot is very simple and very fair; they do not take advantage of anyone; we have an escape clause that allows us to fly very easily (you notice, though, that this event is very rare?)

Before, when I was feeling more put upon, some of you really did have me convinced that I was guilty of some ethical malfeasance. No. You need to search your souls. You have been taking delight in the misfortunes of others. I know there's a scowl on your face while you do it. That's part of the enjoyment, to feel the rush of anger and superiority.

And you want things to "rant" about. Your readers demand that you are snarky and vicious to others.

That's not my problem. That's yours. And I don't mean just you, Scott. I mean, the whole freaking webcomics "community".

Howard, I still have plenty of respect for. He's not up to that kind of crap, and I've only criticized him for a single lapse in judgement. And he has *never* kicked a guy like me in the ribs when I was down.
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Postby Sam on Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:09 pm

The 'Pot, Kettle, Metaphor' thread.

In Bizarro Internet, the webcomics industry is sane!


Howard Tayler wrote:Before the barbs fly, allow me to clarify a few points. Yes, this was cross-posted from the Keenspace forum, where the same discussion took place yesterday.


Barbs will solve nothing, I don't think. They just fluff up this resurgent drama even more. But I think you knew where it was goin' with Tycho and should have perhaps interacted with this situation in such a way that you wouldn't have ended up rufflin' feathers.

However, it's your right to say whatever you want, even if that makes you an accessory to aspersion. And you formally present a position that is understandable and respectable towards Keenspot. Taken at face value, the situation here shows you to be entirely without malevolent intent, smug satisfaction, etc. But something has gone unstated:

I don't know for sure if you agree or disagree with what Tycho had to say. If you have any disagreements with his analysis of Keenspot, I'd like to know why. If you agree with his translation of your situation, I'd like to know why.
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Postby John T on Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:10 pm

Kiwi wrote:Image


BEST. SMILEY. EVER.

I have nothing else of value to add.
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Postby carsonfire on Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:12 pm

macclint wrote:
i wish i could create drama like this.


I hear ya. My pageviews would go through the roof!


Bah! In here? Nobody's clicking on links because of arguments in here. I think Bobby Crosby made such an outlandish claim, once, but I bet you'd have to go to his logs with a magnifying glass to find anything.
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Postby Piratezim on Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:19 pm

if you create drama, forum nerds will click through your archives looking for ammo to use against you
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Postby Kazriko on Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:58 pm

carsonfire wrote:Bah! In here? Nobody's clicking on links because of arguments in here. I think Bobby Crosby made such an outlandish claim, once, but I bet you'd have to go to his logs with a magnifying glass to find anything.


Nod. That's really an open question. There's really two major camps to such a discussion.

A. Any publicity is good publicity. Even a train wreck will get your name cemented in people's minds.
B. Bad publicity can turn people off your product no matter how good it is.

I suspect that both of these are true depending on the readers you're talking about. There are some people that will hear about it, file it away, then come back later after they've forgotten how annoying the debate was. Some however will get it etched in their brain "Keenspot is lame and I shouldn't read comics there" and never come back. It's a tossup on which group of readers is more numerous or desirable.

Personally, I think the better way would be to build your audience without all of the drama that could permanently reduce your audience in the long term. But I've never built an audience myself, so I don't know for sure.

Also, Thanks for the response to Kurtz. I don't know the incident he was talking about, but it seemed to be a levelheaded reply. :)
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Postby Kazriko on Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:02 pm

Marik wrote:I don't know for sure if you agree or disagree with what Tycho had to say. If you have any disagreements with his analysis of Keenspot, I'd like to know why. If you agree with his translation of your situation, I'd like to know why.


Just for reference, Tycho's analysis, and the sum total of all his potentially negative comments about keenspot in the article are in this single line.

Tycho wrote:It seems to me that they should call it Take All Of Your Money Spot instead of Keenspot, because of how they take your money all the time.


The rest of Tycho's part of the article were unrelated to Keenspot, except to say that Howard recently left.
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Postby communist trees on Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:04 pm

carsonfire wrote:
macclint wrote:
i wish i could create drama like this.


I hear ya. My pageviews would go through the roof!


Bah! In here? Nobody's clicking on links because of arguments in here. I think Bobby Crosby made such an outlandish claim, once, but I bet you'd have to go to his logs with a magnifying glass to find anything.


This sort of thing actually does get me perusing archives occassionally. After seeing how the various writers act in these vitriolic diatribes, I do, now and then, feel enough curiousity to see what the actual comic is like. I'll grant you, I've never read a full archive, much less become a regular reader, because of a cartoonist's actions in the forums, but I have gone and read a few dozen strips several times.

And you know, if I've done it, there are probably others who do the same thing.
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