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Postby davey3000 on Wed Apr 18, 2001 1:59 am

Finally, we get to hear a bit about Phoebes' view of what's going on...<P>From the second and third panel of 2:153, I'd say that Phoebe doesn't know that Joe pushed Todd down the stairs - it would be interesting to see her reaction if she found out...<P>Now where is Ceilidh... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>---
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Postby Sterling on Wed Apr 18, 2001 2:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davey3000:
<B>From the second and third panel of 2:153, I'd say that Phoebe doesn't know that Joe pushed Todd down the stairs - it would be interesting to see her reaction if she found out...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we do know that Deirdre knows about Todd. We don't know who else found out, other than that Ryan didn't. Phoebe might very well have.
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Postby Josh Phillips on Wed Apr 18, 2001 3:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AngelKnight2780:
<B>Okay, most likely, the thing that drove a wedge between Joe and Phoebe was that they started lusting after other people (Todd for Phoebe, Helene for Joe) while at the same time being attracted to each other. When they started chasing after their respective objects of desire, it caused them both to feel in a way betrayed, leading to the bitter feelings between the two. For Joe, the fact that she got Todd was a sticking point because he didn't get Helene. For Phoebe, the fact that Joe would want Helene, who is pretty much what Phoebe ISN'T, stuck in her craw - she thought that she was strung along, ans Joe lied when he said that he cared about her "in that way". So, there's a lot going on there in that little tete a tete.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You pretty much got it on the nose. Joe and Phoebe were best friends for *ages* before high school (<A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20000922.html">2:10</A>, <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20001205.html">2:62</A>). All of a sudden they're at that stage of teenage life where you're jonesing for a relationship, and each of them picked someone else. Three years later, they're both still bitter about getting the shaft.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davey3000:
<B>From the second and third panel of 2:153, I'd say that Phoebe doesn't know that Joe pushed Todd down the stairs - it would be interesting to see her reaction if she found out...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, it's safe to say Phoebe never found out who injured Todd.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterling:
<B>Well, we do know that Deirdre knows about Todd. We don't know who else found out, other than that Ryan didn't. Phoebe might very well have.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, Deirdre knows about Todd's "accident" -- she and Todd were in the same year, and Joe often went to Deirdre for support -- but remember that Deirdre had a huge falling out with her family. She might not have spoken to Phoebe very often; and considering Phoebe's emotional state during and after the Todd affair, perhaps Deirdre didn't *want* to tell her.<P>JOSH.
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Postby Nick Pavlovski on Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:27 am

Sorry Josh - can you translate the slang - "Jonesing"?????
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Postby Usa-chan on Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:34 am

..."At least <B>one</B> of us got our desires"? Someone help me with this.
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Postby The Trainee Baka on Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:46 am

My guess is he's talking about Todd.
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Postby Kaoru on Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:46 am

To say you're Jonesing for something is kind of like saying you're "looking for" and "wanting" something.<P>-Kaoru
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Postby Wapiko on Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:08 am

I think he's talking about how she wanted Todd, and he wanted Hel
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Postby Nick Pavlovski on Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:35 am

THANKS!
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Postby Cranky Old Man on Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:59 am

Wow! Josh actually clarified plot points?! Damn...and I was all set to post a really indepth analysis, too.<P>------------------
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Postby AngelKnight2780 on Wed Apr 18, 2001 6:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Usa-chan:
<B>..."At least one</B> of us got our desires"? Someone help me with this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, most likely, the thing that drove a wedge between Joe and Phoebe was that they started lusting after other people (Todd for Phoebe, Helene for Joe) while at the same time being attracted to each other. When they started chasing after their respective objects of desire, it caused them both to feel in a way betrayed, leading to the bitter feelings between the two. For Joe, the fact that she got Todd was a sticking point because he didn't get Helene. For Phoebe, the fact that Joe would want Helene, who is pretty much what Phoebe ISN'T, stuck in her craw - she thought that she was strung along, ans Joe lied when he said that he cared about her "in that way". So, there's a lot going on there in that little tete a tete.<P>------------------
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Postby Sage on Wed Apr 18, 2001 6:05 am

I would like to take this opportunity to make the observation that Joe is the one who told Ceilidh that Phoebe was a lesbian (1:43). Wouldn't he have been in a position to know that wasn't true? ;)<P>------------------
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Postby MizunoL on Wed Apr 18, 2001 6:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sage:
<B>I would like to take this opportunity to make the observation that Joe is the one who told Ceilidh that Phoebe was a lesbian (1:43). Wouldn't he have been in a position to know that wasn't true? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*Cranks up speculation machine*<P>The only thing I know about what happened in Grade 9 between Joe and Pheobe is that we don't know the half of it. I'm guessing that a lot of AngelKnight's theory is true. Joe and Pheeb didn't know exactly what the hell they were feeling, they thought they liked each other but then Helene and Todd showed up. My best guess at some sort of timeline is Joe told Pheobe he cared about her right after she started dating Todd. Phoebe, in return, gave Joe the cold shoulder. Todd dumps Phoebe, Joe pushes Todd down the stairs, <I>really</I> nasty things are said/done between Pheeb and Joe and they never really speak to each other again. Thusly Joe belives the "Phoebe lesbian" rumors because:
1. She isn't there to tell him otherwise.
2. Joe's certainly in a disposition to believe nasty rumors about her.
3. It helps him feel less rejected. <P>There it is Josh. Now go tinker with the storyline so no part of my predictions come true.
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Postby Symok on Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eyeless Blond:
<B> Also, Jow did make that one comment <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010126.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>, which has already been debated over endlessly. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, what *DID* he mean by "Don't you get it"...?<P>My theory on Avalife: (heh my first pun on the name 'Avalon' <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif">)<P>Joe told Phoebe how he felt *before* she started dating Todd, as is evidenced by when he says "That was before you threw me away for Todd." (<A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010418.html" TARGET=_blank>2:153</A>) Therefore we can probably assume that in response to Joe's revelation Pheoebe gave him the "just friends" talk. We can assume that this was AFTER Helene showed up on the scence. Joe also told Ceilidh that he was too nervous to talk to Helene, (<A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20001201.html" TARGET=_blank>2:60</A>). However, perhaps this was untrue if Phoebe's comment "[Helene]'s all you seemed to care about [in grade nine]" (<A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010418.html" TARGET=_blank>2:153</A>) can be believed. It is possible that she did feel something for Joe aswell back then, and that comment was simply the result of jealousy.<P>The reason for Todd and Phoebe's breakup is not made clear (Altough it will be, we all hope), as far as Ryan knows, it was Todd who dumped Phoebe. (<A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20000928.html" TARGET=_blank>2:14</A>) If this is the case, we can make some assumptions as to possible reasons:<P>1) Todd tried to push Phoebe into something she wasn't ready for, such as a sexual relationship, and Phoebe refused.<P>2) Todd was not interested in a serious relationship, and Pheoebe, being young, thought he really cared for her.<P>OR, (a more TWISTY idea (and I *HOPE* incorrect))<P>3) Todd was simply dating Phoebe as a bet with one of his friends. Not that it was for her specificly, she was probably just unlucky enough to be picked out...<P>However: It could be that SHE dumped HIM. Perhaps she caught him cheating on her. In any case, the whole incident leaves her quite devistated, souring her on any relationship at all. Perhaps sometime soon after this Joe again tells her how he feels, hoping to make her feel better. This action has the opposite affect, Pheoebe believing that Joe is simply trying to take advantage of her. Perhaps SHE TELLS HIM she thinks she may be a lezbian. (Gina of <A HREF="http://www.whenigrowup.net" TARGET=_blank>WIGU</A> did it [urhttp://www.whenigrowup.net/d/20000308.html]HERE[/url], and it would be a prety twisty thing to be revealed...) Whatever the case, the whole incident leaves Phoebe bitter about relationships in general.<P>Some time later, Ryan asks her out, and she goes balistic. (not putting a link reference to this, as there are too many). Ryan goes to Deirdre for advice, but he begins to fall for her (It is unclear how much, if anything, Phoebe knows about Ryan and Deirdre) If she knows anything at all, this would only add to her anger.<P>Now, with Joe and Ceilidh (as far as everyone else knows) dating, at least until Joe gives *her* the 'just friends' talk, Pheoebe, understandably, begins to wonder wether or not Joe really cared for her or not.<P>*shuts down speculation engine*<P>Phew, that was long... Probably my longest post anywhere, ever... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"> Didn't really know how long it was going to turn out to be, but there it is. I think I covered just about everything important, if not, point it out and I'll come up with something.<P>Now all we have to do is sit back and wait for everything I've writen to NOT happen <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby Guest on Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MizunoL:
<B> *Cranks up speculation machine*<P>The only thing I know about what happened in Grade 9 between Joe and Pheobe is that we don't know the half of it. I'm guessing that a lot of AngelKnight's theory is true. Joe and Pheeb didn't know exactly what the hell they were feeling, they thought they liked each other but then Helene and Todd showed up. My best guess at some sort of timeline is Joe told Pheobe he cared about her right after she started dating Todd. Phoebe, in return, gave Joe the cold shoulder. Todd dumps Phoebe, Joe pushes Todd down the stairs, <I>really</I> nasty things are said/done between Pheeb and Joe and they never really speak to each other again. Thusly Joe belives the "Phoebe lesbian" rumors because:
1. She isn't there to tell him otherwise.
2. Joe's certainly in a disposition to believe nasty rumors about her.
3. It helps him feel less rejected. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This analysis seems really good. From the past few days it seems pretty clear that Joe's feelings towards Phoebe are... less than kind and that the feeling is mutual. If I might interject one other possibility:<P>Could it also be that Phoebe's comments about Joe chasing Helene is less based on current reality and more on her own obsessions?<P>Most of the stuff, recently, that Joe has done with Helene hasn't been <I>overtly</I> bad. It could be taken as Joe chasing Helene, but it could equally be something someone does for a friend. I've been thinking the former because, largely, of history and what Phoebe said. But, nothing we know couldn't support Joe being really interested in Ceilidh and simply being a friend to Helene...<P>Well, until Josh twists the story line to make everything we guess wrong.
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Postby Eyeless Blond on Thu Apr 19, 2001 10:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cranky Old Man:
<B>Damn...and I was all set to post a really indepth analysis, too.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know you're a hard-core Lyncher when... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby Eyeless Blond on Thu Apr 19, 2001 10:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHz:
<B>Could it also be that Phoebe's comments about Joe chasing Helene is less based on current reality and more on her own obsessions?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Most of the stuff, recently, that Joe has done with Helene hasn't been <I>overtly</I> bad. It could be taken as Joe chasing Helene, but it could equally be something someone does for a friend. I've been thinking the former because, largely, of history and what Phoebe said. But, nothing we know couldn't support Joe being really interested in Ceilidh and simply being a friend to Helene...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I for one am inclined to believe anything that anyone tells Alison. She seems to be that informal psychologist-type person to whom everyone goes to blurt out their problems. Jow told her he wasn't after Helene, and thus I believe him. Also, Jow did make that one comment <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20010126.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>, which has already been debated over endlessly. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>It's really a shame about Alison, too. I was that kind of person in HS (as well as being the school's chemistry nerd), and am still that person to my circle of friends in college, and I gotta say it sucks worrying about everyone else's social life while having none of your own. Let's hope Alison finds her hapy ending. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby Sterling on Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sage:
<B>I would like to take this opportunity to make the observation that Joe is the one who told Ceilidh that Phoebe was a lesbian (1:43). Wouldn't he have been in a position to know that wasn't true? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh. I posted something about this a while back, but lets do so again.<P>The fact that it was Joe who said that Phoebe was a lesbian, and that Ryan didn't know what Ceilidh was talking about when she said that, seems extremely important. I say that wasn't a rumor that Joe was just passing on, but instead something Joe made up out of bitterness towards Phoebe.<P>From the summer camping trip, Phoebe also doesn't seem to know about this "rumor" - in fact, if memory serves, Joe and Ceilidh are the only ones that mention anything about it on-camera.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>However, perhaps this was untrue if Phoebe's comment "[Helene]'s all you seemed to care about [in grade nine]" can be believed. It is possible that she did feel something for Joe aswell back then, and that comment was simply the result of jealousy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm... Possible, but remember that Joe and Phoebe were best friends. Its possible Joe dumped out his feelings to Phoebe, which is why she found out and Helene didn't.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>3) Todd was simply dating Phoebe as a bet with one of his friends. Not that it was for her specificly, she was probably just unlucky enough to be picked out...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd say this is likely just because it mirrors nicely what happened with Joe, Alan, and Helene. Joe dumped out his feelings on that to Phoebe, who then found out that was the only reason Todd was interested in her. Part of her hard crash after that was that she had fallen hard for Todd, and part was realizing what she'd given up Joe for.<P>As usual, I'm probably way off-base. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
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Postby MizunoL on Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Sterling:<P><B>The fact that it was Joe who said that Phoebe was a lesbian, and that Ryan didn't know what Ceilidh was talking about when she said that, seems extremely important. I say that wasn't a rumor that Joe was just passing on, but instead something Joe made up out of bitterness towards Phoebe.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Come to think of it, I think I remember this conversation too. <P>Anyway, I'm going to start defending Joe here. I don't think he has so much animosity towards towards Phoebe that he would start rumors about her. Remember this is Ryan we're talking about. He's the self-proclaimed geek to end all geeks and doesn't seem to be on the inside track of the school's social circut. We do know that Todd said some nasty things about Pheobe, and if he did indeed start saying she was a lesbian I wouldn't be too surprised. Ryan knows the major stuff that happened, but he's a little fuzzy on the details. That's how a lot of things in high school work: Everyone knows one certain thing but it all depends on the social circles as to what extent they know about it. Ryan wasn't really friendly with Joe and Alan, I'd say perhaps a bit more than aquaintances. It's Ceilidh, who is essentially friends with everyone, who has drawn him into that group more. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>From the summer camping trip, Phoebe also doesn't seem to know about this "rumor" - in fact, if memory serves, Joe and Ceilidh are the only ones that mention anything about it on-camera.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think Phoebe does know, she just either doesn't care/pretends not to. <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20000225.html" TARGET=_blank>The rest of the school</A> has head the rumor though; it seems unlikely to me that Pheobe wouldn't have heard the nasty things being said about her. <P>[edit]Out of school = stupid spelling mistakes. :P<p>[This message has been edited by MizunoL (edited 04-20-2001).]
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Postby Sterling on Sat Apr 21, 2001 6:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think Phoebe does know, she just either doesn't care/pretends not to. The rest of the school has head the rumor though; it seems unlikely to me that Pheobe wouldn't have heard the nasty things being said about her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good point. I'd forgotten that one and the Alison ones before it. Although the fact that, in <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com/d/20000224.html" TARGET=_blank>1:79</A>, Alison says that she heard that Ceilidh and Phoebe had something going on means the rest of the school doesn't necessarily have had to have heard the rumor Joe told Ceilidh. They may have noticed some of the interactions between Ceilidh and Phoebe and drawn their own conclusions.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Anyway, I'm going to start defending Joe here. I don't think he has so much animosity towards towards Phoebe that he would start rumors about her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, but remember that he did take out Todd after Todd dumped Phoebe. From that, I don't think its likely that he'd pass on a rumor, started by Todd, to a new girl who's interested in being Phoebe's friend and generally helping her out. There was some reason why he passed on a rumor he knew to be untrue, or (as I said) created one for the occasion.
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Postby vision8 on Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eyeless Blond:
<B> It's really a shame about Alison, too. Let's hope Alison finds her hapy ending. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. Of all the people in Avalon whom I want to get into some decent relationship, I want Alison to find that "true happiness" most of all. She deserves it. Course, there aren't any decent guys for her, but maybe Josh will introduce some.<P>Girls like Alison are always the ones I go after... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
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Postby vision8 on Mon Apr 23, 2001 9:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Symok:
<B> Now, with Joe and Ceilidh (as far as everyone else knows) dating, at least until Joe gives *her* the 'just friends' talk, Pheoebe, understandably, begins to wonder wether or not Joe really cared for her or not.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And once Joe gives Ceilidh the 'just friends' talk, she will become bitter and disillusioned with relationships, and she and Phoebe will really bond. Perhaps then they'll decide that men aren't worth their time and really become lesbians!
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