12-27-06: Ma-MA

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

Moderators: Gisele Lagace, TCampbell

Forum rules
Penny and Aggie moved to http://www.pennyandaggie.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1

Postby Sebastian on Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:08 am

Richter wrote:Charisma strikes me as the kind of woman who seizes what she wants. Selfish, to a degree, sure. Pretty much an in-your-face type either. Propably has quite a temper, too. However, she seems to have somewhat grown into her role as a mother.


honestly, what can you make say that? Charisma is in the comic maybe even from longer than Marshall, but until Gisele showed us explicitelly that she was his mother more than a good half of this forum didn't believe that was true. I believe was the first to teorize that she was Marshall's mother and that it could explain Marshall's issues but I can honestly say that even I wasn't fully persuaded by the theory (I come up with it only because I'm used to T's brand of twistness), to sum up there is nothing in the comic before and even after the revelation that show Charisma as a mother, even less as a good one. What make you say that "she seems to have somewhat grown into her role as a mother."?

Because she give him a job? But does she pay him (outside from the standard allowance) ? Until is it said I'll doubt (Could she she even hire him? I think he is a minor, what are in the States (or wherever is P&A) the laws about hiring minors in general and working in a gym in particolar? Don't you need some kind of preparation?)
Sebastian
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2565
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Italy

Postby badkittyface on Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:33 am

Yoda has a point. i don't recall any strips that showed Charisma to be particularly motherly.

now that we're getting a clearer picture of Marshall's upbringing, i can see why he just wants to be loved. poor guy.
User avatar
badkittyface
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:45 am

Postby Sebastian on Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:49 am

Mocking me, are you, mmmh? :D
Sebastian
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2565
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Sassy-fras on Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:27 am

MRodriguez
Sassy-fras, darling, it's called sarcasm/hyperbole.

Maybe that's why you find 8 year olds so much more interesting than people your age.

And yes, I knooooow Shadrach didn't mean SMUM, he meant cunt or something similar. Honestly? Moving too fast and falling on your butt while pregnant does not a cunt make anyway.


Right-o. Moving on then. :D I like cheese! Huzzah!
Last edited by Sassy-fras on Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Marco: Maybe if you showed Dr. Zaius the proper respect, Dr. Zaius would stop showing you the POO! -Josie and the Pussycats-
User avatar
Sassy-fras
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:40 pm
Location: Wandering in Jersey

Postby Tarlia on Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:34 am

Richter wrote:I don't really see how the 'getting my tubes tied' comment is in itself cruel to Marsh. Charisma gave him a very honest answer on his question ("Do you ever think about consequences?"). What should she have said? "I love you, it's gonna be okay, I promise" or some other empty phrase? Or maybe blush and say something about god not wanting her to talk about the s-word? Seriously.


Well, no, but when a kid asks their parent something like that, usually it means they'd like to talk about something. Charisma's reply was very dismissive, she could have at least asked him what was up.
Tarlia
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:04 pm

Postby Ollie_Vera on Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:21 pm

Richter wrote:And about her heritage: She does have asian blood, I think - the way her mom and her speak, her name, and her looks all hint at that. She's half-and-half herself, though (I think), much like Sara.

Why is that important?
User avatar
Ollie_Vera
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:33 am
Location: WA

Postby Richter on Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:41 pm

honestly, what can you make say that? Charisma is in the comic maybe even from longer than Marshall, but until Gisele showed us explicitelly that she was his mother more than a good half of this forum didn't believe that was true. I believe was the first to teorize that she was Marshall's mother and that it could explain Marshall's issues but I can honestly say that even I wasn't fully persuaded by the theory (I come up with it only because I'm used to T's brand of twistness), to sum up there is nothing in the comic before and even after the revelation that show Charisma as a mother, even less as a good one. What make you say that "she seems to have somewhat grown into her role as a mother."?


If Peny's, or Michelle's, or Sara's, or really any other mother ever played a significant part showing their good motherhood in previous strips, please inform me, because I honestly canot remember that. Actually, the teenage characers' parents (Aggie's dad and Charisma being an exception) never really did anything in the comic before.

Yeah, I was kinda conjecturing a lot there. I admit. But ... where again does Charisma show she's a horrible mother?

Well, no, but when a kid asks their parent something like that, usually it means they'd like to talk about something. Charisma's reply was very dismissive, she could have at least asked him what was up.

Or it could be seen as her son lecturing her about her sex life. If that was the case, the answer would understandably be a little bit brash. Though ... I still don't see how this is hostile towards marsh. She seems pretty casual about it, that's it.
Richter
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:43 am
Location: Berlin, Germany, Europe

Postby Cameo on Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:42 pm

Ollie_Vera wrote:
Richter wrote:And about her heritage: She does have asian blood, I think - the way her mom and her speak, her name, and her looks all hint at that. She's half-and-half herself, though (I think), much like Sara.

Why is that important?

Does it have to be? Charisma's parenting skills (or lack thereof) don't have to be the constant centre of discussion. There are other interesting things in the comic too! :P
ImageImageImageImageImage
I continue to be female!
How devious.
Anyone who wants to draw Cameo can refer to this.
Hooray for avatars I made!
[12:02:17] cameoAppearance: I am an adult. I can make my own ice cream decisions.
The Cammy Guarantee: All sig quotes make sense in context!
User avatar
Cameo
Keenspot Deity
 
Posts: 12719
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:19 pm
Location: My Face O'Clock

Postby Richter on Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:51 pm

Ollie_Vera wrote:
Richter wrote:And about her heritage: She does have asian blood, I think - the way her mom and her speak, her name, and her looks all hint at that. She's half-and-half herself, though (I think), much like Sara.

Why is that important?

Someone brought that up further up (page one I think), someone else supposed she had some french/italian roots, I doupt that and stated I thought she was partially asian. Simple, isn't it?
Richter
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:43 am
Location: Berlin, Germany, Europe

Postby Tarlia on Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:59 pm

Richter wrote:Or it could be seen as her son lecturing her about her sex life. If that was the case, the answer would understandably be a little bit brash. Though ... I still don't see how this is hostile towards marsh. She seems pretty casual about it, that's it.


*shrugs* It can be read in either way, we don't what, if anything, followed the scene and her comment. I don't know why you're going out of your way to defend her, though, while writing off Marshall as just a "sissy". It's clear he has issues, yes, and it's clear a lot of it comes from his mother. This implies that Charisma isn't an excellent mother. Don't get me wrong, no one is perfect, and it doesn't mean she's a totally bad person, but it's pretty clear that the comic is intended to imply that she's not an awesome caring mother. That isn't saying that all single women with an active sex life are bad role models, or anything. Marshall has issues and she's the reason. At the same time she may have done good stuff for him. All children are affected by their parents and upbringing and I think very few people grow up without any issues at all related to their parents.
Tarlia
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:04 pm

subject

Postby isobel on Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:04 pm

I'm not sure how much we're supposed to see of the cast's parents, since it's a comic about high-schoolers, but we did see Penny's parents wayyy back in the beginning, when Penny was asking them about revenge. Her dad told her not to bother, and her mother said some well-aimed remarks about the uncaring popular girls when she was in high school. Both of them also appeared briefly around that time when Penny was shopping-- her dad told her to make investments with her allowance instead of buying the latest fashions, and her mother tried to get her Ugg boots but wound up with "ugh" boots. Plus Mrs. Levac appeared before the birthday party, when Karen interrogated her about Penny's parties. Also, Sara's family made an appearance in Shoposphere, wherein her father appeared concerned with her bad attitude toward her friends and her utter disrespect toward him (and presumably her mother as well). Granted, these were all brief appearances, but all these parents took notice of, if not interest in (Penny's parents seem to be invested in her future and her happiness, dunno about Sara's) their children, and tried to teach them something. There was none of the, "Do whatever you want, I'm going outside to have phonesex, forget about my support" that Charisma shows. Maybe she's a better mom than we think, but from what we've seen of her as a parent she's pretty lame.
User avatar
isobel
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:12 am
Location: Boulder, CO

Postby MRodriguez on Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:43 pm

Sassy-fras, I was really snotty to you. I apologize, there was no need for that. No sarcasm here, just thought I'd be clear cuz it's difficult to read on the internet. I just thought my original statement was outrageous enough that most people would understand what I meant. Again, that's hard to do without hearing my tone of voice. Sorry.

Dude, I didn't type out the word to offend anyone, or use big bad swearwords, but simply to make it clear that I knew exactly the word that Shadrach was thinking of, since there seems to have been some confusion about that. There's a lot of four letter words, among them cunt and smum. To me, cunt is really no worse than dick, fuck or shit, but that's because I used to talk to a lot of British people, and from what I've seen they're more comfortable with the word than Americans. Or maybe it was just the Brits I knew.

I swear all the time, and I don't say it proudly or like it's a good thing, because I'm trying to swear less. It comes from hanging out with a group of people who swore all the time (among them aforementioned Brits), and writing characters who swear. I tend to forget myself.

Definitely too old to think swearing makes me cool or hardcore or any of that. ^^;;

In the end they're just words, though. Only have the power you give them. You'll never see me using the N word though, or the f word that ends in g or sometimes t. My C word is a nasty word for Asian people, and my S word is a slur on how my own ethnic group tends to pronounce things. There's lots of Hispanic people who call each other that word all the time though, and tons of black people who use the n word to refer to each other. To them it doesn't have the power that it does to me, just like to me the c--t word doesn't have as much power as it does to some of you.

And that was long, and off topic. In the end, I think Charisma isn't a perfect mother, she's a bit selfish, but I don't think being clumsy while pregnant makes her a bad mother. The tubes comment was a little thoughtless, though, and I didn't really like her encouraging Karen like that. In the end though, I think she's not perfect, but you know what? No one is. God knows my own mom tried and she's far from it. Still love her though, and she still loves me.
MRodriguez
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:38 am

Postby Ollie_Vera on Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:17 pm

It's not so much that she fell, it's more like she's a selfish woman who puts her own fun in front of, well, everything else. When you become a parent you really can't be selfish, especially in the way Charisma is. A caring, good mother would try stick to a good guy for a husband who can support her and her child and try to MAKE it work even if she lost interest in him; not just whoever entertains her best.
User avatar
Ollie_Vera
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:33 am
Location: WA

Postby Freemage on Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:26 am

MRodriguez wrote:Dude, I didn't type out the word to offend anyone, or use big bad swearwords, but simply to make it clear that I knew exactly the word that Shadrach was thinking of, since there seems to have been some confusion about that. There's a lot of four letter words, among them cunt and smum. To me, cunt is really no worse than dick, fuck or shit, but that's because I used to talk to a lot of British people, and from what I've seen they're more comfortable with the word than Americans. Or maybe it was just the Brits I knew.


Just focusing for the moment on this particular aspect of your post. It was brought up in an interview with the cast of Formula 51 that the British connotation of 'cunt' tends to be mildly insulting (closer to 'jerk' or 'goon' or somesuch). In America, otoh, the connotation is far more aggressive and hostile--Stephen King's Gerald's Game has a whole section devoted to how the word is specifically used to dehumanize women, specifically (and if you used it to deride another man, you'd better be prepared for a fistfight, at a minimum).
User avatar
Freemage
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Postby Mutttley on Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:27 am

Freemage wrote

It was brought up in an interview with the cast of Formula 51 that the British connotation of 'cunt' tends to be mildly insulting (closer to 'jerk' or 'goon' or somesuch)

It's an extremely taboo word. Do not use it in polite conversation, or even in rude conversation unless you like to be crude and repulsive

You would believe what you are told by some disreputable British actors? We aren't talking about Alec Guinness here.

MRodriguiz wrote

There's a lot of four letter words, among them cunt and smum. To me, cunt is really no worse than dick, fuck or shit, but that's because I used to talk to a lot of British people, and from what I've seen they're more comfortable with the word than Americans. Or maybe it was just the Brits I knew.

You're in a lot of trouble if you can't tell the difference between the severity of those words. In order of taboo, shit is mild, widely used, dick is worse and not likely to be used to strangers, fuck is seriously taboo and cunt much worse. Nobody is comfortable with the last one.

Seriously, though, you would use then all interchangably? And this from a country where damn is considered a swearword? Whatever next.
User avatar
Mutttley
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed May 16, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Kent, UK

Postby Sebastian on Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:55 am

Richter wrote:If Peny's, or Michelle's, or Sara's, or really any other mother ever played a significant part showing their good motherhood in previous strips, please inform me, because I honestly canot remember that.


It is not about good or even bad parenthood, it is that if you look back at the comics when you see Penny, or Sara and expecially Aggie with their parents you can tell they are thier parents even when it is not explicitelly told because they acts as parents. But even if we have seen Marshall and Charisma together in the comic, nobody thought they were mother and son before it was explicitelly told. I think that it says something about thier relationship.
Sebastian
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2565
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Italy

Postby TCampbell on Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:02 am

Mutttley wrote:Freemage wrote

It was brought up in an interview with the cast of Formula 51 that the British connotation of 'cunt' tends to be mildly insulting (closer to 'jerk' or 'goon' or somesuch)

It's an extremely taboo word. Do not use it in polite conversation, or even in rude conversation unless you like to be crude and repulsive

You would believe what you are told by some disreputable British actors? We aren't talking about Alec Guinness here.

MRodriguiz wrote

There's a lot of four letter words, among them cunt and smum. To me, cunt is really no worse than dick, fuck or shit, but that's because I used to talk to a lot of British people, and from what I've seen they're more comfortable with the word than Americans. Or maybe it was just the Brits I knew.

You're in a lot of trouble if you can't tell the difference between the severity of those words. In order of taboo, shit is mild, widely used, dick is worse and not likely to be used to strangers, fuck is seriously taboo and cunt much worse. Nobody is comfortable with the last one.

Seriously, though, you would use then all interchangably? And this from a country where damn is considered a swearword? Whatever next.


And while we're at it, don't assume that Gisele and I are giving a seal of approval to everything that we don't automatically delete.

I can only check this board every so often these days, and usually, I trust you guys to police yourselves.
TCampbell
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Falls Church, VA

Postby ann on Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:21 am

Why has everyone suddenly become obsessed with the severity of swearwords? Maybe it's because I'm British and clearly we don't give a **** about such things, but I don't see the big deal.
ann
Junior Keenspotter
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:18 pm

Postby badkittyface on Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:14 am

Ollie_Vera wrote:It's not so much that she fell, it's more like she's a selfish woman who puts her own fun in front of, well, everything else. When you become a parent you really can't be selfish, especially in the way Charisma is. A caring, good mother would try stick to a good guy for a husband who can support her and her child and try to MAKE it work even if she lost interest in him; not just whoever entertains her best.


oooh... you're asking for it now. i can just see the Devil's Advocates' fingers flying across the keys. shall we list a few?

"who says you need a MAN to raise a child? ever heard of single parenting?"

"stick to her man, huh? what if he started BEATING her? what if he started abusing Marshall? should she stay THEN? HUH??"

"MY dad died when i was young and MY mom didn't remarry, so i guess that makes MY mom a bad mom, right??? ZOMG HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!!"

"WHAT'S WRONG WITH HAVING LOTS OF CASUAL SEX I DON'T BUT I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM I WISH I GOT LAID AS MUCH AS CHARISMA YOU GO GUUUURRRRRRRLLL!!!!1!!1"

"since she is half Asian, you are disrespecting the Asian community! she's half Asian because i say she is! HAVE AT YOU!!!"

etc.
User avatar
badkittyface
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:45 am

Postby iRobot on Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:12 pm

Freemage wrote:(and if you used it to deride another man, you'd better be prepared for a fistfight, at a minimum).


Oh, I find that that's precisely where and when it needs to be used. "Cunt" and "bitch" are best reserved only for deriding other men. It should be noted that they're only that greatly offensive to men who are much less secure in their sexuality or manhood (or whatever bullshit). Actually, any number of words and phrases that are typically used to demean women are fairly effective against the "knuckle-dragger" type of guys. All sorts of fun.

But like you said--you gotta be prepared for a fight (but usually, by that point, it was probably a foregone conclusion and you were just getting in any extra digs in you could beforehand). :D

Mutttley wrote:You're in a lot of trouble if you can't tell the difference between the severity of those words. In order of taboo, shit is mild, widely used, dick is worse and not likely to be used to strangers, fuck is seriously taboo and cunt much worse. Nobody is comfortable with the last one.


I understand why pejoratives are bad, but what about these non-pejorative "swear words?" I think it's highly immature to label certain words as "bad" when it's fair game to use other words that mean the same thing in the same exact context. Double standard much? I mean, darn it! It's really frickin' stupid that we have to put up with this kind of crap. :grumble:

ann wrote:Why has everyone suddenly become obsessed with the severity of swearwords? Maybe it's because I'm British and clearly we don't give a **** about such things, but I don't see the big deal.


Your country wasn't colonised by scary religious zealots. :P

But, personally, I don't see the big deal either.
Kyn
-----
No, if I were really a jerk, my sig would contain lots of pictures, tired quotes, insipid "wisdom," brainless "wit," and/or lines of text art. And I would be deluded enough to somehow think that any of that was actually cool.
User avatar
iRobot
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:43 am

Postby isobel on Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:05 pm

badkittyface, you're my hero. I LOL'd. :D

And Ollie, specifics aside, I think you're right on. A woman ready to be a parent would have the maturity to realize the responsibility she's taking on and be prepared to make compromises. While I wouldn't say marrying a man she might not love would be a good decision, even if it would bring more financial stability, she could at least conduct herself more like Nick. Y'know, concentrating on the kid's health and well-being, and not having a visible (and confusing, to a young child) string of men who might or might not act in a fatherly way. Like it or not, she's now responsible for another human being's life, and as such she's lost some of her own freedoms, at least for the first 18 years or so. Keeping the kid cared-for and more or less on an even keel is the goal, and that's where Charisma fails, both as a married woman and a single one.
User avatar
isobel
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:12 am
Location: Boulder, CO

Postby MRodriguez on Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:51 pm

T, Giselle, I apologize if my language offended you.

Muttley, it never pays to generalize. :P You used a lot of no ones and everyones there.

I've explained myself as far as I have to, maybe farther. :P If you still have issues with my language, that's really your problem, not mine. Maybe not all Brits are okay with the same words, just like obviously not all Americans are. The ones I knew were, but they were close to my age and similar in personality/mentality/social outlook.

And no, I'm not the type of person who will keep using that word now that I know people find it that offensive. I apologize in advance if anything else that may slip out as I type without thinking is rude.

And yeah, Charisma isn't a perfect mother, but she became a mom early, and while there's a lot of mothers who are very good mothers when they're young, most teenagers/young people tend not to be terribly mature in the first place, much less mature enough to become parents. Sheesh people so much judgement. :P
MRodriguez
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:38 am

Postby Ollie_Vera on Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:52 pm

badkittyface wrote:
Ollie_Vera wrote:It's not so much that she fell, it's more like she's a selfish woman who puts her own fun in front of, well, everything else. When you become a parent you really can't be selfish, especially in the way Charisma is. A caring, good mother would try stick to a good guy for a husband who can support her and her child and try to MAKE it work even if she lost interest in him; not just whoever entertains her best.


oooh... you're asking for it now. i can just see the Devil's Advocates' fingers flying across the keys. shall we list a few?

"who says you need a MAN to raise a child? ever heard of single parenting?"

"stick to her man, huh? what if he started BEATING her? what if he started abusing Marshall? should she stay THEN? HUH??"

"MY dad died when i was young and MY mom didn't remarry, so i guess that makes MY mom a bad mom, right??? ZOMG HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!!"

"WHAT'S WRONG WITH HAVING LOTS OF CASUAL SEX I DON'T BUT I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM I WISH I GOT LAID AS MUCH AS CHARISMA YOU GO GUUUURRRRRRRLLL!!!!1!!1"

"since she is half Asian, you are disrespecting the Asian community! she's half Asian because i say she is! HAVE AT YOU!!!"

etc.

Hahaha, if I ever cared about being politically correct I'd never open my mouth. Or hook up my keyboard. :)

I'm not saying a woman absolutely HAS to have a man in her life to help raise her kids, but it's not exactly easy to do it alone. It's not even easy to do with a partner, but easier than alone.

Isobel - thank you. Whenever you and I are on the same side of an argument I'm generally reassured that I'm right. XD
User avatar
Ollie_Vera
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:33 am
Location: WA

 
Previous

Return to Penny and Aggie

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron