12-04-06 WUUUUUV!

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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12-04-06 WUUUUUV!

Postby Shadrach on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:50 am

(By way of kickstarting the daily strip comments, which appear to have stopped...must be exam time)

Poor Aggie. Marshall is clearly still a sore spot for her. (God help Charlotte if Aggie finds out she too wants him.)

I'm enjoying this arc so far, mainly because we're getting to see a different, angrier side of Lisa.

Oh, and Helen seriously needs a filter between brain and tongue. Her last line is the sort of thing people normally only blurt out when drunk. But as Fred said recently, "You'll learn."
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Postby Meliasaurus on Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:33 am

it is exams week!

personally, more and more, marshall seems like a drag. he's way too serious for me. also if you're going to be all serious, you better fucking stick to what you say. why is he still with karen?
:-?
i'm not so sure that he'd be such a great match for aggie.

ermmm i dont like helen. i have a problem with saying things i dont mean or things coming out wrong... that was just stupid though.

oh and having a different artist is bothering me :(

*sigh* this whole post was just negative comments. i dont' knwo what's gotten into me.
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Postby Shadrach on Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:17 am

Meliasaurus wrote:personally, more and more, marshall seems like a drag. he's way too serious for me. also if you're going to be all serious, you better fucking stick to what you say. why is he still with karen?
:-?
i'm not so sure that he'd be such a great match for aggie.


Right on. I initially liked Marshall, but seeing what a spineless sap he's turned out to be, I now think he and Karen deserve each other.

ermmm i dont like helen. i have a problem with saying things i dont mean or things coming out wrong... that was just stupid though.


Helen's okay I think; she just needs to learn social skills. Remember, despite her shyness and awkwardness it was she who stood up to Charlotte's attempted framing of Katy-Ann. It takes guts to stand up to one's best friend, and I admire Helen for that. Social skills can be learned; as a onetime awkward wallflower, I can vouch for that.

Oh, and don't apologize for posting critical comments on the storyline. They were constructive and fair. From what I've seen, T and Randy can take it, unlike certain other webcartoonists, whose names shall go unmentioned, who throw a total hissy fit online when someone offers the slightest criticism.
Last edited by Shadrach on Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12-04-06 WUUUUUV!

Postby atristain on Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:25 am

Shadrach wrote:Poor Aggie. Marshall is clearly still a sore spot for her. (God help Charlotte if Aggie finds out she too wants him.)

Better say: Poor Aggie if she gets in Charlotte's way. She's sssscaaaaaryyyy.
* Waving hands in front *

BTW Helen: I hope you don't step on something nasty or your foot will taste awful. :x

Au contraire, I think that looking some characters (specially the other half of Penny & Aggie) drawn by some other artist is interesting. Aggie looks less serious (but too close to PeeJee) But perhaps I'm biased since I like Randy's comic. A lot.
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Re: 12-04-06 WUUUUUV!

Postby Yuko no Slayer-Dryad on Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:52 am

Shadrach wrote:(By way of kickstarting the daily strip comments, which appear to have stopped...must be exam time)

Poor Aggie. Marshall is clearly still a sore spot for her. (God help Charlotte if Aggie finds out she too wants him.)

I'm enjoying this arc so far, mainly because we're getting to see a different, angrier side of Lisa.

Oh, and Helen seriously needs a filter between brain and tongue. Her last line is the sort of thing people normally only blurt out when drunk. But as Fred said recently, "You'll learn."


This is R.K Milholland's take on Lisa and the rest of Ms. Lagace's and Mr. Campbell's characters. He certainly got Charlotte to a T in "Omega Sisters" , but Lisa is kinda seems like she has had too much Starbucks.

I'm a fan of Something Positive and feel Milholland has comparable social insight to Campbell, but the two webcomikers approaches are kind of like night and day: Campbell specializes leading the readers to walk a mile in the shoes of various cliques and archetypes, while Milholland excells at leading his readers to accept that life is full of BS, coniving shortsighted twits and frustration, and how to live with it/them and find meaning in it all.

EDIT:

Checked earlier thread, learned Campbell is still writing, so I stand corrected. Lisa still seems to have a chip on her shoulder that rings of Randy's writing style though.
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Postby JK9000 on Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:02 am

Marshall isn't spineless. He's blind, clueless, and generally stupid when it comes to interacting with other people. He most certianly does not deserve Karen, though I agree Aggie isn't the best match for him, either. But, I've never been warm to the whole Aggie/Marshall idea in the first place.

Speaking of interaction-with-other-people skills, how 'bout that Helen, eh? Real social butterfly, that one. The bell of the ball (did I use that right? when was the last time someone actually used the phrase, "bell of the ball"?). Master of Subtle Communication. I could go on, but I think you catch my drift.

As for Mr. Milholland's art, I'm still reserved. I really miss Gis
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Postby mbtiru on Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:42 am

Yuko no Slayer-Dryad wrote:Checked earlier thread, learned Campbell is still writing, so I stand corrected. Lisa still seems to have a chip on her shoulder that rings of Randy's writing style though.

So I'm not crazy. Or... we're both crazy. But I've noticed the change in the style of the dialogue as well.

JK9000 wrote:Speaking of interaction-with-other-people skills, how 'bout that Helen, eh? Real social butterfly, that one. The bell of the ball (did I use that right? when was the last time someone actually used the phrase, "bell of the ball"?).

I'm pretty sure* it's "belle of the ball", "belle" being borrowed from the French word meaning "beautiful".

* And yet am frequently wrong
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Postby Ostracee on Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:15 pm

Hmm, it seems Helen's learned her social graces from Alan.

Lisa's expressions are giving me whiplash in this strip...and angry/nonplussed Aggie looks eerily like PeeJee. (It suits her.)
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Postby Epik High on Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:21 pm

Haha, I know way too many people just like Helen. A little bit lacking on social etiquette, but I think that's just because she's so honest- it doesn't occur to her that certain things are better left unsaid.

I don't understand why Marshall is of such interest to so many people on this forum. He's not even physically in this strip, but people still focus on him. While I rather like the character, I guess I can understand why so many people dislike him. Anyway, it's interesting that him and Karen are still together, even though it was pretty predictable. It seems like Marshall is someone who keeps problems pretty much to himself; and since Karen's approach in dealing with Marshall is to simply agree with whatever he says, I doubt she would confront him about that. And anyway, his tendency to avoid discussing emotional problems is probably what's kept him with her.

As for the art... I will admit that I'm dissapointed everytime that Penny & Aggie has a guest artist. For some reason, I always feel like guest drawn strips aren't really part of the continuity, even though they are. Although I think Milholland is a talented artist, without Gis
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Postby Kate on Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:23 pm

It's disorienting to see folks having a fit over Marshall "still" dating Karen in recent threads.

I was kind of reading this storyline as taking place outside the chronology of the strip, you know? For the most part, these characters haven't figured prominently in the plot recently... so who's to say these events are post-Behind-Closed-Doors? We could be playing catch-up with the omegas.

It's just a feeling I get. Besides, An Inconvenient Truth was widely released in U.S. theaters in June.

(Obligatory disclaimer: I am wrong about almost everything all the freaking time. :wink: )
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Postby Yawnitz on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:38 pm

Epik High wrote:It is intersting to note that Lisa already knows about Aggie's crush on Marshall- something not even Duane or anyone else knew prior to these recent strips. It is certainly curious that Aggie decided to open up to her so quickly.


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Postby Yuko no Slayer-Dryad on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:44 pm

[quote="JK9000"]Marshall isn't spineless. He's blind, clueless, and generally stupid when it comes to interacting with other people. He most certianly does not deserve Karen, though I agree Aggie isn't the best match for him, either. But, I've never been warm to the whole Aggie/Marshall idea in the first place.

Speaking of interaction-with-other-people skills, how 'bout that Helen, eh? Real social butterfly, that one. The bell of the ball (did I use that right? when was the last time someone actually used the phrase, "bell of the ball"?). Master of Subtle Communication. I could go on, but I think you catch my drift.

As for Mr. Milholland's art, I'm still reserved. I really miss Gis
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Postby Richter on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:48 pm

Allright here's my 2 eurocent on this arc ...

1. the art. I don't like it, plain and simple. Not because it's distinct from Gisele's style (though that IS what drew me to P&A and is a good motivation to keep reading it), but because it seems crude, scetchy (in a bad sense) and crude. Didn't like his work on omega isters either, if that was the same guy. Oh, I don't really care for SP either, on a side note.

2. Aggie Whoever is doing the story apparently spent a lot of time on these forums ans studied the popular analysies of major characters here. I found aggie being poorly displayed, really - she seems more like some sort of psycho alternative college kid, not like the immature activist wannabe greenpeache enthusiast we got to know before. Honestly. The Al Gopre comment and the way she was drawn was a *little* over the top.

3. Lisa, like Aggie, seems a bit too hectic and agressive. She appeared more laid back and cool in previous arcs. possibly like with aggie, this is because of howthe script was visualised, not because of the story itself.

4. I don't really find Helen all that offensive. A bit n-your-face, yeah, eager to adapt to new friends and social circles, and possibly a bit clumsy, socially. But then again, I'm used to the thought that brutal honesty is much mroe polite than politeness. it's a common sentiment where I'm from. *shrugs* Anyway, I find here somewhat more likeable in this arc than before. Yeah, she needs to learn what's appropriate. But hey. At least she appears to be human.

The last comment apperats to be an indirect response to the way almost any female P&A char is suspected of being a closet lesbian on these forums, by the way. I DID enjoy that sentence a lot.
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Postby iRobot on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:03 pm

Richter wrote:2. Aggie Whoever is doing the story


The same person who always does the story.

Honestly. The Al Gore comment and the way she was drawn was a *little* over the top.


I don't think it was meant in the manner that "X is hot" is generally used (to conotate extreme physical attractiveness). It's used here in a generic response of admiration for someone that completely (and surprisingly) impresses you, with an ironic "ha-ha" twist. At least that's the impression I got--but then, that sort of thing isn't uncommon at my end of the Universe. :)


4. I don't really find Helen all that offensive.


Neither did I. But then again, I appreciate individuals will lower quantities of artifice.
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Postby LeonardC on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

mbtiru wrote:
Yuko no Slayer-Dryad wrote:Checked earlier thread, learned Campbell is still writing, so I stand corrected. Lisa still seems to have a chip on her shoulder that rings of Randy's writing style though.

So I'm not crazy. Or... we're both crazy. But I've noticed the change in the style of the dialogue as well.


Thirded. Lisa's dialogue, in particular, really sounds to me more like something Randy would have written than something T would have written. But maybe that's just the sort of character she is - that so far we've only seen her when happy, and when she's even mildly annoyed, she comes off as a Davan-McIntire-style misanthrope.
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Postby LeonardC on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:53 pm

I also don't think there's anything wrong with anything Helen said. Mentioning the bet seems perfectly fair as long as she didn't actually agree not to mention it. And the "judgmental bitches" line seems like it was intended as good-humoured ribbing - notice the smile on her face and the fact that it's "we're," not "you're." It's the kind of thing several of my friends would say to each other without a second thought. It just turned out that this particular company wasn't so fond of it.

I've been realizing that this sort of thing is why I often am shy around new people, despite being very outgoing around people I know. I hate having jokes bomb and being embarrassed the way it happened for Helen; so I tend to be cautious with what I say when I don't know what people will accept and what they won't. (I think this makes me very bad at flirting.)
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Guest strips

Postby nandyol on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:47 am

Hi T & Gisele, I really enjoy the comic, both of you are doing a great job! These days I've been missing your art from Penny and Aggie...don't wanna be mean to anyone :shifty: I do appreciate guest artists in any comic, they're lots of fun - but to be honest, I just can't wait to see T and Gisele strips again :)
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Postby ARETH on Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:16 am

Here's a first for this strip: the art in today's seems to be actually confusing the action. The writing for this arc seems relatively solid, if not quite believable for Aggie (I don't think it's really fair to complain about the others, since they've had so little to date), but I'm not going to quibble.

Yeah, I'd actually asked if Mr. Milholland was writing this arc after the first strip, but these recent strips aren't banal and repetitive enough to be his style. I think T. Campbell is doing some kind of experiment here, or pushing it in a different direction, and it seems to be working thus far. I'm interested to see what's going to happen.

Incidentally: whatever happened to the guest artist of "Weights"? I thought that was well-conveyed and drawn very cutely (that sounds like an insult, but it really isn't; it was a delight to read).
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Postby wchogg on Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:43 am

ARETH wrote:Here's a first for this strip: the art in today's seems to be actually confusing the action. The writing for this arc seems relatively solid, if not quite believable for Aggie (I don't think it's really fair to complain about the others, since they've had so little to date), but I'm not going to quibble.

Yeah, I'd actually asked if Mr. Milholland was writing this arc after the first strip, but these recent strips aren't banal and repetitive enough to be his style. I think T. Campbell is doing some kind of experiment here, or pushing it in a different direction, and it seems to be working thus far. I'm interested to see what's going to happen.

Incidentally: whatever happened to the guest artist of "Weights"? I thought that was well-conveyed and drawn very cutely (that sounds like an insult, but it really isn't; it was a delight to read).

The guest artist for Weights is working with Campbell on a comic called, I believe, Divalicious that should be coming out this coming year. She was the artist for the painfully shortlived comic As-If, which I had absolutely adored.

Also, I take some issue with Milholland's writing being characterized as banal and repetitive. I think he's actually one of the best when it comes to nailing down a consistent, yet evolving, voice for characters. I've read through all of S*P a few times, and there's really a lot of depth there even if he has occasionally recycled individual jokes.

edit: As-If wasn't actually that short lived, apparently, it just felt that way to me.
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Postby ARETH on Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:52 am

I don't mind individual jokes being reused occasionally; sometimes it's called for. That isn't my main issue with Something Positive. I read it in the beginning and found it cute, quirky and lighthearted if not a bit lacking in the artistic aspect. As time went on, the characters slowly evolved into the same person, and every single strip became predictable to the point of tedium:

character A: (expository dialogue)
character B: (supplement)
character A: (statement)
character B: (agreement/disagreement)
character A: (statement)
character B: (agreement/disagreement)
character A: Wow, you're an asshole.
character B: (punchline that takes at least two paragraphs)

There's no sense of comedic timing. I'm aware that some jokes work on paper and don't work when said aloud, but Mr. Milholland pushes it to an absurd extreme by giving his characters page-length punchlines that aren't even remotely funny. He can write a complete jerk, but that's really the only voice he's capable of writing.

Worse still, it utterly fails as a comic because the art doesn't even support any of the action. Whereas the beginning strips had varied expressions, some attention to detail, and actual backgrounds, it's devolved into a lazy, crude mess. It doesn't qualify as minimalist because he shows absolutely no understanding of the rules he's breaking with his "style". If it were converted to some other format, then it might work, but as it is it's an eyesore of enormous dialogue bubbles that take up entire panels. When he copy-pastes entire panels only to change the line of a character's eyes or face, it smacks of apathy. Maybe Miss Lagace's beautiful art and T. Campbell's steady writing has spoiled me, but Something Positive is one of the few comics I've found that are genuinely unbearable in every aspect.
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Postby Cookie on Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:37 am

wchogg wrote:The guest artist for Weights is working with Campbell on a comic called, I believe, Divalicious that should be coming out this coming year. She was the artist for the painfully shortlived comic As-If, which I had absolutely adored.

Oh, yeah, As If was great!

I will always miss it. :(
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Postby Jabroniville on Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:35 pm

See, I think Something Positive is only enjoyable if you're in it's target group of cynical, annoyed, constantly-betrayed twentysomethings with a grudge against the world, like me. Granted, I've never been a huge fan of Randy's art (it's at best passable, and he does the cut & paste approach way too much), though he IS really good at character design (most of the S*P cast is visually recognizable from sihlouettes, which is the best determiner of character design there is for a cartoonist), and he's used that same cookie-cutter joke mentioned earlier ridiculously often, but it WAS a DAILY comic for a long period of time.

Randy's also produced more laugh-out-loud moments than any other webcomic artist I've ever seen (remember when Eva challenged him to masturbate in front of her if he was 'so comfortable' with it?), AND he can hit the other emotional ranges if need be. The secret is to make the ENTIRE comic cynical, and then throw in a horribly sad moment (Faye's funeral, anyone?) to shock the living hell out of the cynical fanbase.
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Postby LeonardC on Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:51 pm

Jabroniville wrote:See, I think Something Positive is only enjoyable if you're in it's target group of cynical, annoyed, constantly-betrayed twentysomethings with a grudge against the world, like me.


Nah - I'm thirty, I'm pretty happy with the world, and I haven't been betrayed very much. And I love Something Positive. It has been laugh-out-loud funny more than any other webcomic I've read, and the characters are real enough to sustain it in between those moments. Davan McIntire especially reminds me a lot of a real person I used to love very much - abrasive, misanthropic, bitter, brooding; but sharp as a whip, trustworthy to a fault and full of deep and sincere love for those who somehow managed to get close to her.
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Postby Ostracee on Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:40 pm

The thing is, which are you more likely to hear in real life?

A broken, squeaky-clean, monosyllabic conversation that ends in a quick punchline (presumably followed by everyone falling silent for some time).

A vulgar, playfully hostile conversation that everyone tries to monopolize, with occasional page-length rants containing three or four unceremonious jabs.

The first can be funny, but too often it feels artificial. Something Positive is funny because it reads like real conversation (although, while not forced, it wouldn't be that funny out loud - then again, those voice actors really botched it more than they had to). Who's polite to friends? Politesse is for Lucifer; friends are complete assholes with one another. Who talks in short phrases? You can't even really carry on a conversation that way; I mean, when you want out of a conversation, what do you do? You give everything a quick answer. How often do you hear the "showstopper" one-liners ubiquitous in most strips? About as often as the show stops. Who the hell filters their language these days in informal settings? Not even the President.

Sure, these things can be funny and otherwise aesthetically appealing, but sometimes a more natural pacing is refreshing. Questionable Content probably does this better, but the plot over there seems contrived sometimes...okay, often.
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