[30/10/06] It's part of a healthy lifestyle

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Postby LeonardC on Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:02 pm

I'm really surprised by the surprise here. I'm disappointed in Karen, but not surprised. She's never made a big secret of her ruthlessness, from the very first "I'm pretty now! Pretty people get to do what they want!"

And... I think her motivations tend to be pretty much of a piece in all this. The insecurity and the power drive are more or less the same thing. She was down so long she wants to be on top of everything. She's been getting there. She was about to lose it, and that really freaked her out - but she figured out how to keep it. The crying gave me some hope not because I thought it meant she'd really just wanted to be loved, but because I thought maybe she'd learn something about how to care for someone. Instead, she learned more of what she's been learning from the start: how to control people. Especially through sex.

Now I said before that I'd hate her if she went back to her old tricks, which is exactly what she's done now. But I'm finding I just... can't. Probably (slightly painful admission time) because some of the things she's been doing kinda turn me on. I am very very very glad I'm not Marshall, because in his place now I'd probably want her more than ever, even though she'd deserve whatever ruthless dumping I could possibly give. Ugh.
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Postby Kiroth 6 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:22 pm

The following are a series of comments made by a friend of mine after reading the current arch. Read and enjoy.

PikabluGG (10:41:35 PM): 1. Not wanting to have a sexual relationship at a point is healthy, but when your girl's that into you, at least grope her occassionally, make her feel nice.
PikabluGG (10:41:47 PM): 2. God damn it, it's called foreplay
PikabluGG (10:42:04 PM): 3. Put the God damn phone down bitch. You know it can't end well
PikabluGG (10:43:08 PM): 4. If you're going to rape your boyfriend, don't do it in a public shower.
PikabluGG (10:44:11 PM): 5. Wearing dresses with THAT much cleavage makes you look desperate and slutty.
PikabluGG (10:44:30 PM): 6. Don't fuck a stranger in your friend's bedroom without a tie
PikabluGG (10:44:38 PM): 7. It's a tie, not a fucking sock
PikabluGG (10:44:50 PM): if you don't have a tie, lock the fuckin' door
PikabluGG (10:45:34 PM): 8. "Want to piss off my dad?" is not a sexy line.
PikabluGG (10:46:15 PM): 9. What's with the tutu>
PikabluGG (10:46:54 PM): 10. Jesus Christ. Shirt then bra. Shirt THEN Bra.
PikabluGG (10:47:48 PM): and even then, don't fumble hap-hazardly.
PikabluGG (10:48:55 PM): I mean seriously, Bra removal isn't rocket-science, if girls can do it behind their fucking backs, you can get it blindfolded in the right direction
PikabluGG (10:49:15 PM): it's 2, maybe 3 hooks
PikabluGG (10:49:36 PM): it's as complex as a ziploc bag. I seriously don't see what the problem is
PikabluGG (10:50:29 PM): 11. Playing hard to get AFTER he's removing your pants makes you look stupid, not alluring
PikabluGG (10:54:05 PM): 13. Complaining that no one finds you attractive and that you don't like forward guys, then surprised banging a random guy in your bedroom just to piss off your dad isn't just hypocritical multiple times over, it's plain stupid and bound to cause serious psychological issues later in life.
PikabluGG (10:54:52 PM): 14. Hand jobs shouldn't give you power trips.
PikabluGG (10:56:52 PM): oh, and is Captain suave gay now or something?
PikabluGG (10:58:06 PM): actually, for that matter, how did he unzip her pants, pull them down, and start to unhook her bra all at the same time with on hand?
PikabluGG (10:41:35 PM): 1. Not wanting to have a sexual relationship at a point is healthy, but when your girl's that into you, at least grope her occassionally, make her feel nice.
PikabluGG (10:41:47 PM): 2. God damn it, it's called foreplay
PikabluGG (10:42:04 PM): 3. Put the God damn phone down bitch. You know it can't end well
PikabluGG (10:43:08 PM): 4. If you're going to rape your boyfriend, don't do it in a public shower.
PikabluGG (10:44:11 PM): 5. Wearing dresses with THAT much cleavage makes you look desperate and slutty.
PikabluGG (10:44:30 PM): 6. Don't fuck a stranger in your friend's bedroom without a tie
PikabluGG (10:44:38 PM): 7. It's a tie, not a fucking sock
PikabluGG (10:44:50 PM): if you don't have a tie, lock the fuckin' door
PikabluGG (10:45:34 PM): 8. "Want to piss off my dad?" is not a sexy line.
PikabluGG (10:46:15 PM): 9. What's with the tutu
PikabluGG (10:46:54 PM): 10. Jesus Christ. Shirt then bra. Shirt THEN Bra.
PikabluGG (10:47:48 PM): and even then, don't fumble hap-hazardly.
PikabluGG (10:48:55 PM): I mean seriously, Bra removal isn't rocket-science, if girls can do it behind their fucking backs, you can get it blindfolded in the right direction
PikabluGG (10:49:15 PM): it's 2, maybe 3 hooks
PikabluGG (10:49:36 PM): it's as complex as a ziploc bag. I seriously don't see what the problem is
PikabluGG (10:50:29 PM): 11. Playing hard to get AFTER he's removing your pants makes you look stupid, not alluring
PikabluGG (10:54:05 PM): 13. Complaining that no one finds you attractive and that you don't like forward guys, then surprised banging a random guy in your bedroom just to piss off your dad isn't just hypocritical multiple times over, it's plain stupid and bound to cause serious psychological issues later in life.
PikabluGG (10:54:52 PM): 14. Hand jobs shouldn't give you power trips.
PikabluGG (10:56:52 PM): oh, and is Captain suave gay now or something?
PikabluGG (10:58:06 PM): actually, for that matter, how did he unzip her pants, pull them down, and start to unhook her bra all at the same time with on hand?
PikabluGG (10:58:14 PM): err.. two
PikabluGG (11:00:27 PM): Oh and...
PikabluGG (11:01:03 PM): 15. You're a teacher. Don't have sex during school. Have sex after school, half-ass the grading, and then call it a curve.
PikabluGG (11:01:32 PM): You're a low-paid government employee and you don't have to put up with that "school" shit anyway

PikabluGG (11:01:03 PM): 15. You're a teacher. Don't have sex during school. Have sex after school, half-ass the grading, and then call it a curve.
PikabluGG (11:01:32 PM): You're a low-paid government employee and you don't have to put up with that "school" shit anyway
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Postby Tarlia on Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:15 pm

SatoshiSaotome wrote:If you're not one of those "pretty" girls, can you honestly say the green eyed monster has never snuck into your thoughts and you wished you were "pretty" and able to "manipulate" that super sexy ass hole Jock you had a crush on even though he was banging half the cheer leaders and couldn't pass basic math to save his life.


Yes. Yes I can. Stupidity is the least sexy thing in the world.

Thankfully I didn't go to an American High School so we didn't have cheerleaders or jocks anyway.

However, I fail to see how using sex appeal to well... get sex from guys is manipulative. She wants sex/relationship, he wants sex/relationship, where's the problem? That's quite different from unbuttoning your shirt at work or playing weak to make men carry stuff for you. And it's again very different from grabbing a guy's penis against his will to have "power".

I'm just sick of statements like this, I'm sick of being told that women are like this and want this, while men are like that and want that. Stereotypes like these are harmful. Giving in to them is harmful. Believing in them is harmful. Yes, they may be true in many cases, but the exceptions count too. Stop and think about why the stereotypes exist for a moment, instead. I promise you they're not all inborn genetic truths. So if that makes me a "Feminazi", so be it. I'm proud to be.
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Postby Raitoo on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:37 pm

I'm just sick of statements like this, I'm sick of being told that women are like this and want this, while men are like that and want that. Stereotypes like these are harmful. Giving in to them is harmful. Believing in them is harmful. Yes, they may be true in many cases, but the exceptions count too. Stop and think about why the stereotypes exist for a moment, instead. I promise you they're not all inborn genetic truths. So if that makes me a "Feminazi", so be it. I'm proud to be.


WORD.
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Postby StarKruzr on Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:22 am

Tarlia wrote:I'm just sick of statements like this, I'm sick of being told that women are like this and want this, while men are like that and want that. Stereotypes like these are harmful. Giving in to them is harmful. Believing in them is harmful. Yes, they may be true in many cases, but the exceptions count too. Stop and think about why the stereotypes exist for a moment, instead. I promise you they're not all inborn genetic truths. So if that makes me a "Feminazi", so be it. I'm proud to be.


They're not ALL inborn genetic truths, but some really are. No one should ever deny exceptions, but acting as if the stereotypes have no basis in reality is just silly.
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Postby StarKruzr on Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:23 am

Ollie_Vera wrote:No hate here. It's true.

Also.

My name is Snu: KAREN GAVE MARSHALL A HANDJOB IN THE MEN'S LOCKERS
My name is Snu: :OO
theabsurdMC: OH NO HAND AIDS


ahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ollie == winner :lol: :D
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Postby Tarlia on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:12 am

StarKruzr wrote:They're not ALL inborn genetic truths, but some really are. No one should ever deny exceptions, but acting as if the stereotypes have no basis in reality is just silly.


My point is that a lot of the stereotypes are social constructs, not genetic. The exceptions are so many and so varied the stereotypes become worthless if you are willing to look at the big picture. And some stereotypes are just plain lies. If you would like to tell me what things presumably ARE inborn genetic truths, I'm perfectly willing to discuss, but I don't really want to turn this thread into another debate like that.
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Postby Freemage on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:58 am

Tarlia wrote:
My point is that a lot of the stereotypes are social constructs, not genetic. The exceptions are so many and so varied the stereotypes become worthless if you are willing to look at the big picture.


Heh. I'd actually argue that you've got it backwards, in one respect--the only place stereotypes really have any value is when you're looking at 'the big picture'--that is to say, a large sample population, where it's possible to talk about trends and statistics.

Stereotypes break down and are abused when applied on the micro-scale, to individuals. Even if 60-75% of population group X has some trait, the fact that Terry Doe is a member of Group X tells us nothing about Terry.

And, for that matter, 'social construct' stereotypes can be just as useful, if they're as accurate as the genetics-derived variety.
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Postby Tarlia on Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:36 am

Freemage wrote:
Tarlia wrote:
My point is that a lot of the stereotypes are social constructs, not genetic. The exceptions are so many and so varied the stereotypes become worthless if you are willing to look at the big picture.


Heh. I'd actually argue that you've got it backwards, in one respect--the only place stereotypes really have any value is when you're looking at 'the big picture'--that is to say, a large sample population, where it's possible to talk about trends and statistics.

Stereotypes break down and are abused when applied on the micro-scale, to individuals. Even if 60-75% of population group X has some trait, the fact that Terry Doe is a member of Group X tells us nothing about Terry.



I agree, I meant it more like... Just because x amount of people from group y that you know follow a stereotype, doesn't mean every member of group y does. I've seen a lot of that "logic" used in these debates, especially "all the guys I know would have behaved nothing like Marshall, therefore Marshall is unrealistic and/or gay".



And, for that matter, 'social construct' stereotypes can be just as useful, if they're as accurate as the genetics-derived variety.


But by using these stereotypes you're encouraging them, making it even harder to break out of the social constructs. Useful, perhaps, but harmful as well.
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Postby RisingPhoenix on Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:14 pm

Well, she's realized she has power because she is attractive. Congratulations Karen, you've just realized the obvious, and had a good taste of using it, instead of having it used against you.

The fact that she realized she has power simply makes her awake. Its if she decides to abuse it that it becomes a problem.

Still think Marshall has more problems than she does, by far and away.
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Postby Freemage on Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:21 pm

RisingPhoenix wrote:Well, she's realized she has power because she is attractive. Congratulations Karen, you've just realized the obvious, and had a good taste of using it, instead of having it used against you.

The fact that she realized she has power simply makes her awake. Its if she decides to abuse it that it becomes a problem.

Still think Marshall has more problems than she does, by far and away.


That may be, but I'm increasingly convinced that Karen is one of those problems.
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Postby Tarlia on Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:51 pm

She already abused it, too.
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Postby ria on Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:49 pm

Karen needs ubertherapy and Marshall probably needs some too. They definitely don't need each other, and for both their sakes they should part ways.
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Postby MRodriguez on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:19 pm

Even now, I'm don't think Karen is exactly 'filth' yet. She's only sixteen, and if anything, I feel SORRY for her, (and for Marshall, but I think once Marshall drops her he'll be better.) because she's going to crash and burn. You know she is, it's all going to turn around and bite her in the ass. And that's what NEEDS to happen, she needs to learn that having power over people is not where true happiness comes from, because she thinks it is, because well... everyone's always had power over her.

I don't feel particularly sorry for Marshall, because he comes across as whiny and passive-agressive. Very passive agressive actually, and it still bothers me that he was talking about mating for life when he's not even ready to have sex with her. Even CHRISTIANS agree that when you marry someone you have sex with them, dude.

What Karen did was wrong, and her reaction to it was worrying and wrong, but I think she's needs help and therapy, and to grow up and learn, it's going to be really hard for her. So if anything, I feel pity.
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Postby Ollie_Vera on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:38 pm

MRodriguez wrote:Very passive agressive actually, and it still bothers me that he was talking about mating for life when he's not even ready to have sex with her.
It was a HOPE symbol. He HOPED their relationship would get to that stage and they'd be together forever.

Besides, I've known teens who had the same kind of hope, but didn't jump into sex. They feared the hand AIDS, I guess.
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Postby Silverblue on Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:04 pm

SatoshiSaotome wrote:Listen.
Can you honestly tell me, that the "stereotypical" pretty girls never used sex eh?


No idea, they'd never have talked to me. I never thought of them as flirtatious, or even thought of them much at all.

SatoshiSaotome wrote:If you're not one of those "pretty" girls, can you honestly say the green eyed monster has never snuck into your thoughts and you wished you were "pretty" and able to "manipulate" that super sexy ass hole Jock you had a crush on even though he was banging half the cheer leaders and couldn't pass basic math to save his life.


Absolutely. I don't know whether it's that I just never found assholes sexy (I was terrified of them - they usually beat up their girlfriends, and they'd take a swing at anyone else, male or female), or whether it just didn't matter. I never once wanted to be prettier, even though I was considered very ugly. Even as a twelve year old, I would never have wanted to manipulate anyone - I asked for what I wanted, and if I got turned down, I coped and then went and got other, more achievable things. And I know there were other girls like me. Folk who didn't try to acquire a boyfriend, who just worked on schoolwork.

I mean, I don't doubt it happens. But for some people the idea of it never occurs. I've met absolutely drop dead gorgeous women who just...don't manipulate. USUALLY these are the ones that socially people adore because they're almost always 'safe' to be around. They know what they want, but they won't run over people to get it. No winks, no flushes, no giggling, just confidence and calm.

I suppose I'm in a large, reasonably stable group, socially. Occassionally there are the sort who try that kind of behaviour, but they tend to get ostracised as 'untrustworthy' or 'people who won't follow through', or even just 'cheap'.
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Postby MRodriguez on Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:40 am

Ollie_Vera wrote:It was a HOPE symbol. He HOPED their relationship would get to that stage and they'd be together forever.

Besides, I've known teens who had the same kind of hope, but didn't jump into sex. They feared the hand AIDS, I guess.


And there's lots of teens who DO jump into sex, and do go on power crazes, whether it be by sexing each other or by manipulating the smaller, more shy, less popular kids into doing things they don't want to. That apparently doesn't stop Karen from being filth, and it doesn't stop Marshall from being a passive-agressive lying jerk.
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Postby Draggy on Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:53 am

MRodriguez wrote:I don't feel particularly sorry for Marshall, because he comes across as whiny and passive-agressive. Very passive agressive actually, and it still bothers me that he was talking about mating for life when he's not even ready to have sex with her. Even CHRISTIANS agree that when you marry someone you have sex with them, dude.


Its true, christians do believe that when you get married you should have sex. However did you see Marshall give her an engament ring? Did you see them get married? Was there even an indication at that point where he wants to get engaged?

Lots of people give out symbols of 'Hope' that a relationship will last until that point in time. Lots of people do crazy over dramatic things - it doesn't mean they're ready for the next step. It means they're hoping to get there together, with them and their partner in the same mind set.

I don't know why people are mad at Marshall for being passive agressive. Because if he went into this arc being overly agressive about not wanting sex everyone would be mad at him for being to violent.

He's not being a jerk. He's making bad attempts at being a gentelman.

(Edit: Now with less mistakes!!)
Last edited by Draggy on Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby isobel on Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:38 am

I'm with Draggy on this one. Marshall is trying very hard to be the kind of guy girls say they want-- sensitive, accepting, emotional, romantic. I think he really is a lot of those, but he's really trying to play to them here so he can be the white knight who carries Karen off to the castle. He's a boy trying to be a gentleman, as far as I can tell, and there's nothing too passive-aggressive or manipulative about that. Yes, Karen might be confused, but that's largely due to her not understanding the difference between hope/commitment and sex. He said he hoped they'd last, which is no kind of a promise of anything, just a hope that things will keep on being good.
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Postby iRobot on Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:25 pm

I'm gonna have to agree with Draggy and Isobel on this. As far as I'm concerned they're pretty much on the mark.
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Postby KiZeR on Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:21 am

Imagine what the scene must look like to every other guy in the locker. A girl walks into the guy's locker, strips naked and enters the shower with her boyfriend. She is next seen crying on the floor, with her boyfriend standing tall, confidently and seemlingly uncaring about her. She then gives him a hand job in front of everyone in the locker. He leaves, without returning the favor.

Not even the the truth of Marshall's blatent homosexuality can diminish the inevitable gossip and rumor mill. This is the stuff legends are made of, something you see in a terribly male dominatant, woman degrating porno. In the eyes of every guy who saw this or hears about it, Marshall will from now on be king of the school, and the story will be told and he will be envied long after he graduates.
Poor, poor Marshall. :roll:


Meanwhile, when the girls hear about this, it'll be, "oh Karen, what a whore."

Who has the power?
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Postby Trollroot on Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:07 am

Um...Karen made sure they were private:

http://pennyandaggie.com/d/20060927.html

I really don't see any of that happening in a full mens locker room.

Also, I always assumed Marshall was 18, and working full time in the gym. We never see him in school, teen girls normally fall for slightly older boys, and Karens "You would know, being an adult" I thought indicated he was 18 or so.
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Postby Draggy on Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:32 am

Um....they're alone in that locker room....all the guys left laughing. Yea rumors are gonna fly. Everyone's gonna say Marshal scored and yea the girls are gonna talk about Karen. But the girls ALREADY talk about Karen.

And judging by the look on her face when she goes into the locker room this is one rumor she won't mind.

http://pennyandaggie.com/d/20060913.html

If anything the one person who WILL NOT benifit from the rumor IS Marshall just because he's so overly sensitive to the idea of sex. Now to everyone else it looks like he was full of crap because they think he 'got some'. When really he was trying not to.

And really, why do we keep calling Marshall gay? Maybe he is maybe he isn't, but that's not really the evidence that's been presented to us on as to why he doesn't want sex.
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Postby iRobot on Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:46 am

KiZeR wrote:Imagine what the scene must look like to every other guy in the locker. A girl walks into the guy's locker, strips naked and enters the shower with her boyfriend. She is next seen crying on the floor, with her boyfriend standing tall, confidently and seemlingly uncaring about her. She then gives him a hand job in front of everyone in the locker. He leaves, without returning the favor.

Not even the the truth of Marshall's blatent homosexuality can diminish the inevitable gossip and rumor mill. This is the stuff legends are made of, something you see in a terribly male dominatant, woman degrating porno. In the eyes of every guy who saw this or hears about it, Marshall will from now on be king of the school, and the story will be told and he will be envied long after he graduates.
Poor, poor Marshall. :roll:


Oh, look!!! This washer's on it's spin cycle.
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Postby Tarlia on Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:57 am

KiZeR is a troll, guys.
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