[30/10/06] It's part of a healthy lifestyle

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Re: That's just wrong....

Postby Tsarevna_Erin on Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:42 am

Sassy-fras wrote:Edit: Notice the poem...and what it says...does this mean Aggie was assuming Karen's beyond the ebilness she originally saw? Or is Aggie just good at judging people? Hmmmm. Or is she psychic? Okay, I'm having too much fun with this. I'll stop now. *skitters away*


I find this strange and puzzling. Persephone was, herself, a wronged party, kidnapped by Hades and made to be Queen of the Dead. Venus/Aphrodite was usually in the "Karen" role - taking whatever men she wanted and using them up. So Aggie is taking an ... interesting tack there.

I would prefer not to see Marshall hook up with Aggie, and if the speculation about Charisma and Marshall's relationship is correct, they probably won't. But I DO agree that Marshall needs someone who wants to LOVE him and not revel in how much "power" she has to make him do her bidding. Agh, I can't believe it! WTF, Karen?!
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Postby kash on Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:19 am

I'd like to see aggie hook up with marshall, if only to realize that she doesn't need him nearly as much as she seems to think she does. she doesn't need him at all, in fact.
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Re:

Postby Missie on Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:39 am

ria wrote:I think whoever predicted that Charisma is Marshall's mom, and that her playing around leads him to be overcautious about sex, may be right. So then he doesn't have cold feet because some past girlfriend broke his heart -- he's just trying to distance himself from something he doesn't like in his parent.

Just a possibility, anyhow.


I don't post very often, but I have to say that I agree with this theory. Not necessarily that Charisma is his mom, just that it seems like a promiscuous family member has shaped his views on sex. I can really relate to this - a couple of my close family members have... well, been big sluts, and it does really cause you to take a step back and think to yourself "God, I am *never* letting that happen."

I didn't lose my virginity until I was 21 - it was literally my 21st birthday (though that was a little bit of a coincidence). Now, there are some extenuating circumstances that contributed to how long I waited (mainly a long-distance relationship), but I do know that seeing what my family members did made me want to wait anyway. It certainly made me wait until I found someone that I knew I was going to spend the rest of my life with. I didn't quite wait until we were married, but we were engaged by then. And he waited for me for four years before we finally did have sex, so I knew he definitely wasn't just after that.

I just really didn't want to end up like my sister, or my dad. With his eleven kids and half-dozen mistresses and ex-wives, none of whom he actually loves. x_x
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Postby Beanie on Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:40 am

ria wrote:I think whoever predicted that Charisma is Marshall's mom, and that her playing around leads him to be overcautious about sex, may be right. So then he doesn't have cold feet because some past girlfriend broke his heart -- he's just trying to distance himself from something he doesn't like in his parent.

Just a possibility, anyhow.


I thought Charisma was supposed to be Marshall's mom early on, and didn't realize it wasn't necessarily true until people started speculating she had a kid, haha! Whoops... so much for paying attention...
But this makes sense. Also, because folks stuck in a codepedent cycle may HATE their parent(s)/their parent's relationship(s), and yet tend to pick mates who are like their parents anyway...
Hmm.


As for the rest, I really have very little to say that I haven't already, I think... except that's it all very, very sad. For both of them.
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Postby iRobot on Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:06 am

ria wrote:I think whoever predicted that Charisma is Marshall's mom, and that her playing around leads him to be overcautious about sex, may be right. So then he doesn't have cold feet because some past girlfriend broke his heart -- he's just trying to distance himself from something he doesn't like in his parent.


Yeah, that was definitely a good call. Wow.

ParaChan wrote:Why can't he see her for who she is? He should be able to no matter how fake she pretends to be. True colors show through even the thickest lies. I just hope that Marshal realises it soon because his character is very sweet. patient. kind. I mean, come on.


Sometimes you overlook someone's flaws because you can see their potential. Sometimes, when you fall in love, you become blinded by that potential and you refuse to admit their flaws--even to yourself. You see it, but you don't want to see it. Because you love them.

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MRodriguez wrote:*headdesk* Karen. I still love you. But go see a psychologist. Now. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You'll be happier, and everyone around you will be happier, I promise.


:lol: Great post!
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Postby Freemage on Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:22 am

We now bring you Freemage's Inner Monologue Theater

Panel 1: *Snerk* Been there, dude. Upper brain functions shut down for a moment.

Panel 2: Okay, Karen, you seriously should've told him this BEFORE the whole mess, but it is something he needed to hear. Bravo.

Panel 3: Yeah, he needs to go get his head on straight and think things through. Give him space, girl, you're saying all the right things.

Panel 4: ... WTF?!?!? Gah! Guhguh---NYAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

Okay, at this point, yes--they need to break up, and she needs mongo-therapy. I could rationalize her last-panel thought-bubble, but it would be a stretch, at best, and even then would only mitigate, not exonerate, so it's not really worth it.
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Postby isobel on Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:35 am

Freemage, I think your inner monologue took a page from Brandi's book, because it was my inner monologue too. It was looking like a mistake, but a well-intentioned mistake, up until the last bitchy manipulative horrible panel.

*headdesk*
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Postby Saint_37 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:02 am

I said this way back when Karen got all prettied up. She's a manipulative bitch, plain and simple. However it seems that the hope of Marshall leaving her is very slim now that he has confessed that he loves her and seems to be emotionally attatched to her now more than ever.

Dammit, it sucks when the bitches win, but then that's real life for you. I give props to T & G for being able to hit the whole situation right on the real life correlative head. I don't think I've ever seen another comic with this much real life parallelism.
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Re: That's just wrong....

Postby Briseis on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:11 am

Tsarevna_Erin wrote:I find this strange and puzzling. Persephone was, herself, a wronged party, kidnapped by Hades and made to be Queen of the Dead. Venus/Aphrodite was usually in the "Karen" role - taking whatever men she wanted and using them up. So Aggie is taking an ... interesting tack there.


Well, it surprises me less each time these days how much people misknow the greek myths (having read a lot of them as a child I thought it was standard knowledge, childhood is funny that way) but I so often see Aphrodite particularly mangled. I think it has to do with the current "romantification" (heh) of the concept of love, and not knowing that the particular "love" she represents is the passionate kind (as in, you, me, now, basically). I guess the image where her husband cathes the straying goddess in a net with her lover doesn't make as cute greeting cards.

ETA: Also Aggie seems to have missed the part where that particular disagreement ended with a time-share ;P

What worries me is the prominent presence lately, and possibly even way earlier, of the two faces of Karen. There's the hopeful, starry eyed look, or the crying despair, or the comforting loving look that she projects at Marshall, followed by the Karen's got control! or how damn well did I play that looks that he doesn't get to see. She appears to work at keeping Marshall by continously projecting the girlfriend he wants rather than letting him get to know her... and the "success" of her efforts reflect not on her worth but on her skill as a manipulator.

What I'm also thinking about is how she's blatantly pulling the attention away from what she did by continously focusing on him... "Don't be ashamed that I did that to you, it isn't wrong to enjoy unwanted sexual activity, a little coercion now and then is part of a healthy lifestyle, it doesn't make me her."

I think that's enough rambling for a first post. :)
Last edited by Briseis on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby CassSpaz on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:14 am

Agh, I
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Postby seph2710 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:24 am

My first thought upon seeing the last panel was vaguely related to Highlander. Then I saw Karen castrating guys left and right screaming "There can be only one!"

Just throwing that out there.
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Postby El Durazno Muerte on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:15 pm

*waves arms* "Mwaaaa! I'm manipulative and e-e-e-e-evil!"
Disappointing. Not surprising, mind, but still disappointing.

The only way I could think of to rationalize that last panel in her favor is if everything leading up to that were genuine, and then, after the fact, she suddenly realized, "Holy crap! I had total power over that guy!" Given her history and her expression when she said "Say when," though, it doesn't seem likely. (How much do you want to bet even -she- doesn't know how much of her conduct here was genuine?)

Out of curiosity... have we ever seen Karen express non-sexual (or at least non-physical) affection for Marshall? Is it possible that all those sappy speeches and giving her the swan were attempts to get her to say, "You're a wonderful person, Marshall, and I love you!" You know, as opposed to the standard, "you're hot" compliments and "it's adorable that you don't realize how suggestive you're being."

I'm already cringing in anticipation of Karen vs. Aggie, if it indeed comes to that. Aggie's slowly becoming more reasonable and mature, but it's entirely too easy to go *kaboom!* out over matters of the heart, even for people who are normally more soft-spoken.
On top of that, we've already seen that Marshall will stand up for Karen... though I suppose after this fiasco, that's up in the air. Even if he doesn't, though, it seems far too likely that Aggie will scream out something that she (and everyone in earshot) will regret.
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Postby Tarlia on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:20 pm

Karen has officially creeped me out.
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Postby CEOIII on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:24 pm

"My God......the power."

My father gave me some sage advice when I was young. "Son," he said, "never hit a woman, unless she challenges you to a fistfight, and even then, don't hit her in the face."

BUT, if at any time in the future of this comic, Marshall wakes up and belts this cow, I will be more than willing to go to whereever T and Gisele live and be their personal servant for a month or two. (They'd have to pay my airfare, though.)
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Postby LostPirateTX on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:49 pm

1) CassSpaz, you've hit on a good insight there. Sex is usually good for a relationship only when it's... *fumbles for word* I don't want to say "done right" because that sounds all preachy, but I can't think of a better phrasing, blame the Sudafed. The key things Marshall and Karen are missing here are a solid sense of trust and honest communication. Being intimate with someone can make you vulnerable in a lot of ways, and in the context of a loving, trusting relationship that can lead to more emotional closeness as a result and be a wonderful thing, but without that love and that all-important trust, it can be, as CassSpaz put it, a trainwreck. And a painful one, so is it any wonder that Marshall isn't willing to open himself up to Karen that way? Her pushiness before this should have made it pretty clear that that would have been a mistake and a good way to get hurt. And voila, we see that.

2) There's been a lot of debate from this arc about whether Karen's action counts as rape / sexual assault-- I'm inclined to say so, though I'm not sure what the statutes would say, as they vary from state to state... but I think "sexual abuse" is undeniably applicable, so maybe that will help resolve something. Or start a new argument, but I hope not.

3) I absolutely hate Karen as a person. As a comic-strip character, on the other hand, she's amazingly well-written, and the authors deserve a big plate of cookies for pulling it off so well. Marshall, I'm waiting on-- he's not my favorite, but he's got potential, and right now I think he just needs a (platonic) hug. Poor guy.
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Postby SatoshiSaotome on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:10 pm

A woman using sex to gain power?! My god! I never hear of such a thing! Alert the presses! The very fabric of time and space will unravel!

*The total level of sarcasm drowns everyone*

While few would ever admit it, women use sex on a daily basis as a tool for power.

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Postby CassSpaz on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:14 pm

SatoshiSaotome wrote:A woman using sex to gain power?!

My god! I never hear of such a thing! Alert the presses! The very fabric of time and space will unravel!


I'd like to disagree heartily here. First of all, not all women think this way. It is true that some women will use their gender as an advantage. Of course, some men will do the exact same thing. It is not fair to women to make that sweeping a generalization. I generally wear no make up, hoodies, and baggy jeans - not because I'm unattractive but because I generally do not like to be sexualized or thought of in that sort of manner (exception of my boyfriend)

Secondly, there is a definate matter of scale here. A woman being flirtacious to encite a man to help her lift a heavy box, while unnecessary, is no where near the same as a girl approaching her partner in the shower and trying to get him to do something she knows he was not comfortable with, then afterwards having a possibly fake breakdown to get him to stay by her long enough to wank him off.

That's not in the same ballpark, that's not even the same sport.

Edit: @LostPirate: Thank you! I think this arc is inspiring a lot of people to really open up. Sex is a touchy topic (olol, see what I did there :P) so it's understandable.
Last edited by CassSpaz on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby KiZeR on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:16 pm

I still say he's gay. He was in the guy's locker room, lots of hot sweaty naked men to look at. I bet he didn't look down once.
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Postby Tarlia on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:23 pm

[quote="SatoshiSaotome"]A woman using sex to gain power?! My god! I never hear of such a thing! Alert the presses! The very fabric of time and space will unravel!

*The total level of sarcasm drowns everyone*

While few would ever admit it, women use sex on a daily basis as a tool for power.

At work you
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Postby Draggy on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:27 pm

I take it back! I am NOT Karen. At least I know how to love someone and not want them for power tripping.

Nasty cow. Yea a cow. I know, someone made the argument it was somehow wrong to adress Karen by names that attacked her weight, but you know, she deserves it.

Poor Marashall. He's never going to be loved in that relationship. Just used. Karen flaunts and uses him like a trophy.

And as for the if this is calculated or not. I think it is. Really since this arc started we've seen Karen's been ploting to jump Marshall since her party. I think she's just a fast thinker. She takes oppertunities and uses them to get what she wants and when Plan A doesn't work she can pull Plan B out of her butt in an instant.

She did it with Penny and Aggie. And she did it again here.

Who'd ever think Penny's idol gossip was right?
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Postby XerxesTWD on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:34 pm

I'm new to the forum, and I just caught up on reading everything.

Apparently, I'm in some kind of minority, but Karen is becoming one of my most favorite characters in webcomicdom.

She's such a strong character, able to invoke rage in people in the comic, as well as so many P&A readers.

Something I saw on the first page of this thread, I'd have to agree with.

When a woman you are attracted to starts rubbing up on you through your clothes, it's hard enough to say no. I grew up in a religious family, so for me to finally "break free" took a long time. Because of that, I can empathize with Marshall, whether his motivations are religious or not.

Back on point, though. It's hard enough to maintain resolve when someone you are attracted to is rubbing on your piece through your clothes. If they manage to grab it full-on, odds are you aren't going anywhere because your body wants it to continue. Especially if you are very emotional at the time, as he clearly is. With the blood flowing like that, he very likely got turned on at the sight of her feigned vulnerability and prone position. Then she appeals to his protectiveness and then slides her hand up before he can stop her.

He clearly was conflicted, but Karen's personality is stronger than his, and he wants Karen. He wants her badly, he just isn't entirely sure how to cope with it. When she takes the initiative, he can continue his metrosexual personality and kind of blame it on her if things go poorly because of this.

Is what Karen did wrong? I don't think so. He wanted it, and she wants to control someone beautiful because the beautiful people steered the way her life went for so long. Now she has that venue because her will was stronger than his.

I am definitely looking forward to what happens between these two.

Oh yeah: Hello. :wink:
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Postby Draggy on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:47 pm

XerxesTWD wrote:I'm new to the forum, and I just caught up on reading everything.

Apparently, I'm in some kind of minority, but Karen is becoming one of my most favorite characters in webcomicdom.
(rest of post)


I don't think its so much that fact that Marshall doesn't know how to approach wanting sex and Karen wanting sex that's upsetting everyone, as much as it is the fact that the longer this plays out, the more it seems like Karen doesn't love Marshall like he loves her.

At least that's what has got my angry.

Before it was people wanted Marshall to lossen up and give Karen something physicall because it seemed like it was what she needed to feel loved.

But today seems to indicate that she needs sex to know that she's in control.

By the way, hi! I'm new too! Kinda...
Last edited by Draggy on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tarlia on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:05 pm

Draggy wrote:
XerxesTWD wrote:I'm new to the forum, and I just caught up on reading everything.

Apparently, I'm in some kind of minority, but Karen is becoming one of my most favorite characters in webcomicdom.
(rest of post)


I don't think its so much that fact that Marshall doesn't know how to approach wanting sex and Karen taking wanting sex that's upsetting everyone, as much as it is the fact that the longer this plays out, the more it seems like Karen doesn't love Marshall like he loves her.

At least that's what has got my angry.

Before it was people wanted MArshall to lossen up and give Karen something physicall because it seemed like it was what she needed to feel loved.

But today seems to indicate that she needs sex to know that she's in control.


Yeah, that's what got me too. I understand insecure. I didn't think she was going about it in the right way, but at least I understood the need to feel desired, to feel sexy, and I thought that was why Karen was pushing it, unable to see what she was doing wasn't right. However, yeah, it doesn't seem like she loves Marshall. This doesn't seem sincere at all. Karen is too screwed up to deal with other people properly, she needs some serious fixing.

Sex shouldn't be a power game or a manipulative tool. There should be trust, respect, consent, FUN and (in my opinion) love.
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Postby XerxesTWD on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:18 pm

That's part of why I enjoy Karen so much.

She's so flawed and interesting, her every action seems to cause a slew of threads.
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Postby Kitsuiko on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:23 pm

I think part of the strong reaction was the fact that many people have been trying to give Karen the benefit of the doubt as a "person" and not just a character.

Mostly because of who she used to be before her pretty-fication.

That said... she drowned that part of herself but good.

That said, as I'm a /huge/ Penny fan and pretty much always have been... I've kind of wanted Karen to die in a fire. :)

Though, hey, I'll take 15 and pregnant too. ;)
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