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The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Postby cookievore on Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:21 pm

Ugly Hamster wrote:Meh, I still think you owe Gisele an apology.

You're also acting like we're all out to get you. ;)


*agrees like woah to max with da Hammy Ham*

Yeah man, that was uncalled for to snipe at Gisele. Also, using more words then needed makes things boring, so shhhh. K.I.S.S. please.

I mean, we're not in High school, we don't need to toss in pointless words anymore to make the page limit. Quality of speech my friends, not quantity.
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Postby Freemage on Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:21 pm

Tsarevna:
1: As noted, you completely misread Giselle's two-line post, and so decided to come back with a shrewish snark. You owe her an apology for that. If you can't be bothered, then frankly, the fact that you won't read two lines suggests that we shouldn't bother reading your two pages.

2: When you post a comment on a board that states how you hate all the characters, it is a valid question as to why you continue to read. I managed to eke out a bit more nuance to your statement, but honestly, if you choose heavily weighted language, don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you on the posterior.

3: The cry, "I'll post what I want, when I want," is all well and good, but at that point, you no longer have any grounds to complain when people respond to your own posts negatively. Just as you have the 'right' to comment on T&G's work because it is posted in the public sphere, so do your own posts become legitimate subjects of discussion when you put them out on the web. If you don't like this, then I suggest you either a: accept that you are a hyporcrite, or b: begin making a habit of privately emailing authors, rather than posting on public forums.
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Postby Gisele Lagace on Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:51 pm

No worries guys. Tsarevna_Erin and I posted at the same time and there was a bit of confusion as to who I was talking to...as I forgot to put the name of who I was replying to. I fixed it afterwards.

English is not my mother tongue so I sometimes get confused by certain words here and there but all in all, I still believe Tsarevna likes the comic. She just seems afraid that we might take the story or more precisely these characters (Stan and Michelle) in a certain direction. And with T steering the ship, it's pretty hard to make assumptions ;)
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Postby L-ren on Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:01 pm

On a completely random note, I'd just like to mention that I LOVE Something Positive </random>

OH, also, I kind of find this current story arc a bit uncomfortable to read. Don't get me wrong, I love the arc, it makes me laugh my ass off, and I have no problem with the subject of sex, BUT they're just 'kids' (lol, Marshall logic). Well, obviously I like the characters so I want them all to be happy, and random sexual encounters don't garauntee happiness as much as highschool drama. Not to mention I don't even know if they are playin' it safe, yo. =/ (where's the condom package?)

OK, Gis, tell it to me straight: Did Michelle lose her virginity (I.E. penis-goes-in-vagina) or did she just give him a blowjob? If so, did he give her oral sex too? PLS RESPOND (will write this in the Q&A section if not).
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Postby Gisele Lagace on Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:57 pm

L-ren wrote:Not to mention I don't even know if they are playin' it safe, yo. =/ (where's the condom package?)


My guess: on the floor or in a waste basket near by.

L-ren wrote:OK, Gis, tell it to me straight: Did Michelle lose her virginity (I.E. penis-goes-in-vagina)


Yes.

L-ren wrote:or did she just give him a blowjob? If so, did he give her oral sex too? PLS RESPOND


Michelle did go down there. Nothing is shown. Assume what you will but Stan looks like a pretty happy man in that last panel ;)

If Stan returned the favor? Well, we know he certainly isn't afraid of it considering what happened with Brandi at the beginning of the storyline.
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Postby JackFairy on Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:49 pm

Hey, Gisele? I just wanted to say that you're really cool for how you handle criticism of the comic, and for being so level-headed all-around. I see way too many webauthors get really upset at anything that's not out-and-out praise, so I just wanted to give you kudos for being able to separate a criticism or discussion of how someone doesn't like something going on in the comic with criticism of your work in general.
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Postby snowp14 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:48 am

I would have love a girl like Brandi, spreading rumors about my 'giftedness' when I was in HS, too...


Hahha, especially if it's a black woman spreading that rumor? :)
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Postby Akilika on Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:18 am

I think you're making too many assumptions--none of us actually know where this is going to go. Plus . . . have T and Gisele given us any indication that their characters lose their quirks when they hook up? Heck, it exacerbated one of Duane's (which in turn . . . well, the Penny/Duane/Aggie dream Penny had was interesting), not to mention Karen's.

Plus, we've gotten more info on both Michelle and Stan and both of their issues during this whole thing. I don't think getting them together will make either go away. If Stan is going to keep thinking of Rich while with Michelle, don't you figure that'll impact things eventually? And boyfriends make very convenient "bitch about my parents"-posts, especially if you don't want to tell your friends. (Don't strictly know if she'd be more open about *that* particular bit than with her friends, but it's possible.)

And that's assuming they get together. Stan doesn't seem to have a huge history of that, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. :)


So . . . yeah. Just wait and see. I figure it'll save you a lot of blood pressure medication in the end. :)
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Postby Tsarevna_Erin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:43 am

Freemage wrote:Tsarevna:
1: As noted, you completely misread Giselle's two-line post, and so decided to come back with a shrewish snark. You owe her an apology for that. If you can't be bothered, then frankly, the fact that you won't read two lines suggests that we shouldn't bother reading your two pages.


It was an accident and I did not do a great job wording the post correctly. I wasn't going to waste time and/or bandwidth responding to a post where I was called a stupid bitch. When Giselle commented right after, I responded to her and my question was in reference to tehDUDE's post, not hers. As you can see by my post count, I am newbie here, and I was asking, Gisele, whom I recognized as trying to stick up for me, a non-rhetorical question as to the tenor of posts from people disagreeing with others. What I should have done was specifically reference tehDUDE's post, not simply quoted Gisele's post. When she replied that she was speaking to tehDUDE, I was confused. Now I understand that people thought I was attacking her. I will apologize and explain to Gisele herself, because that was not my intent.

2: When you post a comment on a board that states how you hate all the characters, it is a valid question as to why you continue to read. I managed to eke out a bit more nuance to your statement, but honestly, if you choose heavily weighted language, don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you on the posterior.


Yeah, but I don't see how that's really a bad thing. It has been discussed elsewhere that there's no "hero" in this strip, and that most of the main characters can be arses at different times. There are people I like in this strip - the Omega sisters, for example, Samanatha, and Duane. I like Nick D'Amour, but his storyline with Charisma doesn't do much for me. I think Charisma is a hoot, but ... see my comments on Nick. I honestly DON'T like Karen, but her issues are so honestly depicted in the story and the artwork that I can't stop reading.

So yeah, there are characters I don't like or storylines I don't care about. I still don't see how that makes me teh_ev0l. Do you like each and every character? If so, great! No problems. I don't, but not ONCE did I say "this comic blows" or did I shit on T or Giselle's marvelous work, and I don't appreciate my criticism of two characters being blown up into something it wasn't.

3: The cry, "I'll post what I want, when I want," is all well and good, but at that point, you no longer have any grounds to complain when people respond to your own posts negatively.


Why are you even writing this? No one has agreed with my stance. No one. I got angry because someone called me a BITCH - which I think goes beyond "negatively," and I didn't even respond to him/her. I think debate is healthy and since my original posts, others have brought up points that I did not think of initially - they did so, however, without calling me names. If you look at my responses to the people who disagreed with me, I neither called them names nor mocked their points of view. I am newbie to this board, but I know how the basic deal works. I'm fine with debating; it's all good, and you might learn something. But being called a bitch simply for stating your opinion is never OK, and if you think somehow that posting an opinion means I have to sit there and smile while someone is doing that, then I guess this conversation can't go any further.
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Postby Tsarevna_Erin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:55 am

cookievore wrote:
I mean, we're not in High school, we don't need to toss in pointless words anymore to make the page limit. Quality of speech my friends, not quantity.


You're not in high school? Neither am I. I'm a grad student.
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Postby Tsarevna_Erin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:05 am

Gisele Lagace wrote:No worries guys. Tsarevna_Erin and I posted at the same time and there was a bit of confusion as to who I was talking to...as I forgot to put the name of who I was replying to. I fixed it afterwards.


Gisele, I DO owe you an apology on two fronts. One, I did not thank you for attempting to get things to settle down. Thank you. I really did appreciate your intervening. I know that arguments in a strip thread can be a drag.

Also, I was not sniping at you. I did not want to give tehDUDE the satisfaction of responding to his/her post. When you posted, what I was trying to ask is if tehDUDE's posts were the type that dissenters could expect. I should have worded my response to reflect that. I was in no way trying to slam you for your "Calm down," post, and I apologize for not thinking clearer and making that more obvious. You're the last person I would want to insult.

English is not my mother tongue so I sometimes get confused by certain words here and there but all in all, I still believe Tsarevna likes the comic. She just seems afraid that we might take the story or more precisely these characters (Stan and Michelle) in a certain direction. And with T steering the ship, it's pretty hard to make assumptions ;)


Thank you. That is all I was saying and have been saying. I do love the comic. I read a lot of webcomics, and this one stands out above the rest, not just because of the art, but because the storylines, by and large, are realistic. I was just commenting on a direction I would NOT like to see happen. Period. And yes, I am assuming, big time. I hope that my assumptions are wrong.


Akilika wrote:

Plus, we've gotten more info on both Michelle and Stan and both of their issues during this whole thing. I don't think getting them together will make either go away. If Stan is going to keep thinking of Rich while with Michelle, don't you figure that'll impact things eventually? And boyfriends make very convenient "bitch about my parents"-posts, especially if you don't want to tell your friends. (Don't strictly know if she'd be more open about *that* particular bit than with her friends, but it's possible.)


I wonder if Stan, being in a "real" relationship, would try to rationalize any feelings he has for Rich. But, yeah. If the only consequence of getting together with Michelle is that Stan thinks of Rich more and more, then that would be interesting. And though I don't know if Stan likes very thin girls any more than Rich does, being with Michelle a lot might make Stan wonder why she's so thin. If he's as caring as this arc seems to indicate, he might want to help her get to the bottom of things, and then we may find out just what her dad did that made Michelle so angry.
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Postby Akilika on Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:30 am

Wow. It's a wonder my post still made sense--I somehow neglected to read the second page before posting it.

Agh. x_x; Glad it still makes sense of some kind.


Hee. Rationalizing feelings is all well-and-good, but with any self-delusion, it's really funny if you start to take it over the top to make sure it's true. ;) But, like was said in the Q&A thread, Stan isn't terribly reflective . . . I dunno whether to expect that.


Even if Stan and Michelle do get together, I don't think it'll be immediate . . . and in the meanwhile, I wonder about Michelle's reaction when he's with someone else tomorrow. :D Yeah, she knew about it in advance, but . . . well, I've known myself to go a bit crazy over this whole "feelings" and "sex" thing, even when "love" was nowhere to be seen, and I wonder if Michelle isn't wholly different in that aspect.

I think Michelle going crazy in such a manner would be funny as anything. ^_^ But I'm mean.
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Postby Ugly Hamster on Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:25 am

I don't really understand the logic behind some of your arguments. If Stan and Michelle get together, you're worried the author will forget about their issues?

Wouldn't their issues get touched on even more if they were thrown under the spotlight like they are now? If we see them as a couple their issues just won't go away. If anything, them getting together will make things more interesting since they'll get more attention than they have previously, perhaps. I don't think T would make them a happy bouncing couple and completely throw their problems out of the story - it just wouldn't make sense since he put story-time into adressing some of their issues.

I dunno, I hate and like some of the characters, and I think that's a good thing! It shows that we care enough to have some feelings over these characters, meaning that T is a good story-teller and Gisele is an excellent artist. If everyone was indifferent to the characters, it would probably be a very boring comic and not to mention forum.
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Postby cookievore on Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:21 pm

Tsarevna_Erin wrote:
cookievore wrote:
I mean, we're not in High school, we don't need to toss in pointless words anymore to make the page limit. Quality of speech my friends, not quantity.


You're not in high school? Neither am I. I'm a grad student.


...

Tsarevna_Erin wrote:Why are you even writing this?


Indeed.

*Helps with the point;ess response posts like a helpful thing*
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Postby Freemage on Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:03 pm

Tsarevna_Erin wrote:It was an accident and I did not do a great job wording the post correctly. I wasn't going to waste time and/or bandwidth responding to a post where I was called a stupid bitch. When Giselle commented right after, I responded to her and my question was in reference to tehDUDE's post, not hers. As you can see by my post count, I am newbie here, and I was asking, Gisele, whom I recognized as trying to stick up for me, a non-rhetorical question as to the tenor of posts from people disagreeing with others. What I should have done was specifically reference tehDUDE's post, not simply quoted Gisele's post. When she replied that she was speaking to tehDUDE, I was confused. Now I understand that people thought I was attacking her. I will apologize and explain to Gisele herself, because that was not my intent.


Fair 'nuff, and classy.

Yeah, but I don't see how that's really a bad thing. It has been discussed elsewhere that there's no "hero" in this strip, and that most of the main characters can be arses at different times. There are people I like in this strip - the Omega sisters, for example, Samanatha, and Duane. I like Nick D'Amour, but his storyline with Charisma doesn't do much for me. I think Charisma is a hoot, but ... see my comments on Nick. I honestly DON'T like Karen, but her issues are so honestly depicted in the story and the artwork that I can't stop reading.

So yeah, there are characters I don't like or storylines I don't care about. I still don't see how that makes me teh_ev0l. Do you like each and every character? If so, great! No problems. I don't, but not ONCE did I say "this comic blows" or did I shit on T or Giselle's marvelous work, and I don't appreciate my criticism of two characters being blown up into something it wasn't.


Like I said--I was able to catch all the nuances in your post, and at least understood your concerns (though I don't necessarily share them). My point was that the word 'hate' will generally act as an inflammatory agent in an internet discussion. Also, it's often wise to clarify when you say, "I hate X," if you mean, "I hate their role as a character in this story," or, "I hate people who act like that." The former is a critique of the writing or portrayal; the latter is more of a visceral reaction that may very well be a compliment to the writer's skill, assuming that's the way they wanted you to react.

In the latter sense, honestly, I'd say I dislike a huge portion of the cast. Why? Because they're well-portrayed teenagers, and teens do stupid, mind-boggling things all the time, and when you get old enough, it starts to get annoying.

Which is why I love them as characters. They do so wonderfully portray the foibles I both associate with, and remember from, the teenage condition. (Quick note--the above paragraph was not a 'the kids today are going to hell' comment--the kids have been going to hell since Socrates, and yet we still manage to do alright as a planet. It's just often painful to watch.)

Why are you even writing this? No one has agreed with my stance. No one. I got angry because someone called me a BITCH - which I think goes beyond "negatively," and I didn't even respond to him/her. I think debate is healthy and since my original posts, others have brought up points that I did not think of initially - they did so, however, without calling me names. If you look at my responses to the people who disagreed with me, I neither called them names nor mocked their points of view. I am newbie to this board, but I know how the basic deal works. I'm fine with debating; it's all good, and you might learn something. But being called a bitch simply for stating your opinion is never OK, and if you think somehow that posting an opinion means I have to sit there and smile while someone is doing that, then I guess this conversation can't go any further.


Sit there and smile? Nah. But honestly, I'd suggest treating it like you would a turd in a gutter--step over it, wrinkle your nose in distaste, and forget about it. What provoked the second wave of displeasure at you, actually, was the implication in your original post that this sort of thing is typical around here. I know you're a new arrival (and new voices are generally VERY welcome 'round these parts), but you've been participating in the very heated, yet usually quite civil, "Marshall: Immaculate Angel of Romance or Gay Anti-Christ?" debates, so you should've at least realized that no, not all posts are like that.
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Postby oenone on Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:50 pm

snowp14 wrote:
I would have love a girl like Brandi, spreading rumors about my 'giftedness' when I was in HS, too...


Hahha, especially if it's a black woman spreading that rumor? :)



...
what's brandi's race got to do with her spreading the rumor?
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"Second bananas"? I beg to differ.

Postby Papuasblya on Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:33 pm

Tsarevna_Erin wrote:Yes, they are cute. Yes, Stan appears less like a tool than usual. But I find nothing interesting, either in actuality or potentially, in two second bananas getting together. :-|


Michelle was the first banana we've seen peeled in this strip, and Stan's certainly the first banana Michelle's ever had.

Ba dum BUMP.
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Postby isobel on Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:41 am

oenone wrote:
snowp14 wrote:
I would have love a girl like Brandi, spreading rumors about my 'giftedness' when I was in HS, too...


Hahha, especially if it's a black woman spreading that rumor? :)



...
what's brandi's race got to do with her spreading the rumor?

I think this may relate to the confusion around the strip where everyone's pining over someone; the girl saying "Fiddy" is Samantha, but a lot of people thought she was Brandi. Since the girl was pining for a black guy, and she was with a black guy who seemed to be her boyfriend, we have the stage set for a [harmless, non-racist, as far as I can tell] joke about the vaunted endowment of black men.
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Postby Tarlia on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:32 pm

isobel wrote:
oenone wrote:
snowp14 wrote:
I would have love a girl like Brandi, spreading rumors about my 'giftedness' when I was in HS, too...


Hahha, especially if it's a black woman spreading that rumor? :)



...
what's brandi's race got to do with her spreading the rumor?

I think this may relate to the confusion around the strip where everyone's pining over someone; the girl saying "Fiddy" is Samantha, but a lot of people thought she was Brandi. Since the girl was pining for a black guy, and she was with a black guy who seemed to be her boyfriend, we have the stage set for a [harmless, non-racist, as far as I can tell] joke about the vaunted endowment of black men.


Which is stupid, because I gathered that Brandi was talking about Stan's... oral abilities. Which generally is, you know, far more important than the size of things.

Edit: Well, I could be wrong... Still, I would at least have liked that to be what she meant.
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