I TOLD you Karen + Urology = Perfect Together

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Postby MRodriguez on Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:14 pm

Taotu, don't apologize, you're making me feel bad because I was being a snot. :P You just touched down on a pet peeve of mine and I misunderstood. I have said before I am a lot like Aggie. XD

Sitting on a bed together about a foot apart with all your clothes on is in no way shape or form cuddling, or else I've cuddled with more girls than I can count. :P And my mother. and my sisters, and my four year old nephews and my father.

hot damn, I'm KINKY.

And yes, I think going out and having sex and getting hurt and realizing IT'S NOT REALLY WHAT SHE WANTS would do Karen more good than sitting around whining after Ice King Marshall. Why? Because she'd learn that's not what she wants, even though she thinks it is, and knowing what you don't want is a big part of figuring out what you want. It'd give her experience and a lesson and she'd be a stronger, smarter person for it. Life is harsh, but we're equipted to deal with it.
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Postby iRobot on Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:15 pm

Sebastian wrote:So you don't think that exist various gradations of sex?


I'm not sure how you even inferred that from my post.
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Postby cookievore on Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:45 pm

Freemage wrote: So we have as much reason to suggest that he does so 'off-camera' as we do to suggest that he's got a collection of severed heads in the fridge.


See, I realize you're trying to be serious here, but the image of Marshall with heads in his fridge is just way too amusing. Off camera, I bet he stomps on puppies too.

In the meantime, Karen's at church practicing her Hail Mary's.

I'm not sassing ya Freemage, I understand your point. I just also happen to like amusing unrealistic examples.

Random: It'd be funny if the whole time Marshall was just secretly germaphobic (but alas, his profession makes it unlikely).

Also, I'm on the same wavelength as iRobot, so I've no further useful input. Other then 'what iRobot said'.
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Re: re: to the whole craziness

Postby taotu on Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:41 pm

Kia Purity wrote:And Phoenix Wright avatar = the win.


Teehee! Thank you!

Sebastian wrote:Do you think is right for Marshall to decide all by himself the sexual standard of their relationship? Don't you think Karen should have a voice in it? Or you are ok with Marshall's actual "absolutely no sex of any form and grade because I say so, and until I say so"?


Uhm- yeah, whoever wants to take it slow gets what they want. If the other person isn't prepared to wait and work through those issues, well- they can find somebody else. It's that simple.

MRodriguez wrote:Taotu, don't apologize, you're making me feel bad because I was being a snot. :P You just touched down on a pet peeve of mine and I misunderstood. I have said before I am a lot like Aggie. XD


Oh, that's okay. I was too hasty to head for the law books. *Hug* I didn't mean to upset you, s'all.[/quote]
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Postby Freemage on Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:42 pm

cookievore: Oh, go ahead and giggle--of course the notion is ridiculous. It's hyperbole, and meant to get a laugh. The reason for picking something so absurd, though, is to highlight the problem with the 'maybe X happens off-camera' argument--which is something we've been hearing all along from many of the folks who support Marshall.
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Postby Ugly Hamster on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:17 pm

Alright, I thought I'd find the few comics with what physical contact we have seen between Karen and Marshall. :)

In this comic, I really can't tell what's happening. Is Karen whispering into Marshall's ear, or giving him a kiss on the cheek? Either way, he seems happy over the attention. Maybe she was kissing him on the cheek since here Aggie is remembering them kissing in a more dramatic way. They were cheek-kissing here too.

I think this comic tells a lot about their relationship too. Karen grabs Marshall's bottom, and he doesn't flip his lid. I think this might show that they were being more intimate behind the scenes, just Marshall never wanted to take it too far. Here he is seen with his hand's on Karen's hips, as well as in a few other comics.

Not sure about this comic, but is the second panel a dream or real?

Everyone saying that there was no intimacy at all in their relationship because Marshall doesn't want sex aren't exactly right. I think some of these comics show that Marshall and Karen were being a loving, teenage couple. There is no proof that he wasn't being an intimate boyfriend, but there is proof that he and Karen were being intimate.

Unless some of you are suggesting that Marshall should have been doing more than what we're seeing. I'm sorry, but expecting a sixteen-year-old boy to go beyond hugging and kissing is a little disturbing to me.
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Postby JK9000 on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:30 pm

In the comic in question, Karen says "your arguments are wierd", and goes on to list a few of said arguments. Only one of those-- the "just kids" line-- we actually witnessed. Based on this, I don't think it's unreasonable in the slightest to assume they've had several conversations on the matter. Given Marshall's and Karen's collective exaspiration throughout the arc, it stands to reason the topic is old hat between them.

Yet, while Karen does indeed know why Marshall doesn't what sex, she doesn't understand why. There are, as I see it, four possible reasons for this:

1) Marshall is inept at effectively conveying his position
2) Karen is unable to comprehend Marshall's position
3) Karen is too self-occupied to given Marshall's position proper thought
4) Some combination of the above

Me, I opt for 4, as I think most people would. I would still place the majority of the blame on Karen.
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Postby TheTeague on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:44 pm

I think the reason we haven't seen the other "conversations" Karen and Marshall had is because they all went

"Why Not?"
"Because (insert vague reason here and end discussion)"

From a storytelling standpoint, the other conversations should be left out because it'd be repeditive, wastefull, and annoying to the readers to show the others. This makes sense with Karen (or any of us readers) not understanding his reasoning and her complaints about his arguements being "weird".
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Postby TheTeague on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:53 pm

Ugly Hamster wrote:Alright, I thought I'd find the few comics with what physical contact we have seen between Karen and Marshall. :)

In this comic, I really can't tell what's happening. Is Karen whispering into Marshall's ear, or giving him a kiss on the cheek? Either way, he seems happy over the attention. Maybe she was kissing him on the cheek since here Aggie is remembering them kissing in a more dramatic way. They were cheek-kissing here too.

I think this comic tells a lot about their relationship too. Karen grabs Marshall's bottom, and he doesn't flip his lid. I think this might show that they were being more intimate behind the scenes, just Marshall never wanted to take it too far. Here he is seen with his hand's on Karen's hips, as well as in a few other comics.

Not sure about this comic, but is the second panel a dream or real?

Everyone saying that there was no intimacy at all in their relationship because Marshall doesn't want sex aren't exactly right. I think some of these comics show that Marshall and Karen were being a loving, teenage couple. There is no proof that he wasn't being an intimate boyfriend, but there is proof that he and Karen were being intimate.

Unless some of you are suggesting that Marshall should have been doing more than what we're seeing. I'm sorry, but expecting a sixteen-year-old boy to go beyond hugging and kissing is a little disturbing to me.


I dont think the problem is that "EVERYONE" thinks he isn't intimate for not wanting more than hugging and kissing. I think the problem is that all these examples where Marshall initiated any closeness seems less intimate than even platonic gestures.
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Postby Ugly Hamster on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:02 pm

TheTeague wrote:I dont think the problem is that "EVERYONE" thinks he isn't intimate for not wanting more than hugging and kissing. I think the problem is that all these examples where Marshall initiated any closeness seems less intimate than even platonic gestures.


Yea, sorry with the generalizing, but I really didn't mean that everyone felt that way. :)

You're right about the examples being too close to being platonic though. I wouldn't set my hands on my sister's hips, of course, but I'll kiss her on the cheek from time to time. But still, the butt-grabing part did get me curious to what might be happening. Either way, we can't really assume that they aren't doing anything and Marshall is a complete prude. :)

Even if there isn't any physical intimacy going on, how does that make Marshall a bad person?
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Postby TheTeague on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:47 pm

Ugly Hamster wrote:
TheTeague wrote:I dont think the problem is that "EVERYONE" thinks he isn't intimate for not wanting more than hugging and kissing. I think the problem is that all these examples where Marshall initiated any closeness seems less intimate than even platonic gestures.


Yea, sorry with the generalizing, but I really didn't mean that everyone felt that way. :)

You're right about the examples being too close to being platonic though. I wouldn't set my hands on my sister's hips, of course, but I'll kiss her on the cheek from time to time. But still, the butt-grabing part did get me curious to what might be happening. Either way, we can't really assume that they aren't doing anything and Marshall is a complete prude. :)

Even if there isn't any physical intimacy going on, how does that make Marshall a bad person?


I'm not saying he's a bad person. I'm saying he isn't a great boyfriend and as far as libido goes, I don't think he's gay, rather asexual and needs to admit it to himself and explain it to Karen.
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Postby Ugly Hamster on Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:17 pm

TheTeague wrote:I'm not saying he's a bad person. I'm saying he isn't a great boyfriend and as far as libido goes, I don't think he's gay, rather asexual and needs to admit it to himself and explain it to Karen.


Oh, that question wasn't only directed to you, rather everyone who is on "Karen's side." I'd like to hear Sebastian's answer to my question. :)
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Postby Freemage on Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:36 pm

Ugly Hamster: Most of those have been cited before. But again, look at body language. In just about all of them, Karen is leaning in, arching her back, and otherwise seeking closeness. Marshall, on the other hand, is almost always shown in a passive, stand-offish pose--often seeming to deliberately limit the amount of contact allowed.

Look again at the panel you noted about in this strip. Look at the body language and their faces. He's got his eyes closed, his back straight, and his hand interceding hers--she can't snuggle up against him during the kiss, something she'd obviously like him to do. And on their faces... she's got a yearning, wanting look. Turn him on his back and you'd think he was sleeping.

The butt-grabbing scene, too, offers a bit of what I'm getting at. Note that Karen is always cast as the aggressor; not only is Marshall passive, but he drops the subject in his own mind so fast that he is smacked by his own double-entendre the next breath.

Here's a list of things we haven't seen:

His arms wrapped around her far enough to touch in the small of her back.
Marshall 'copping a feel', or otherwise initiating a simple, playful physical connection.
Marshall leaning into her body.
Marshall caressing her face or neck as they kiss.

I've been a fan of Giselle's for awhile now, since Cool Cat Studio, and Im fairly familiar with her style. If she and T. wanted us to see him being affectionate (as opposed to reading his words), we'd've seen it by now. We haven't. That suggests strongly that it's not there.

This does NOT mean he doesn't find her desireable. It means there's some other factor going on, one that's been seriously gumming up the works.

BTW, just a suspicion....

My long-running theory has been that Marshall has, in the past, been used for sexual pleasure by some girl who cared nothing about him--he was a trophy, and nothing else. This theory was further entrenched by the 'you-know-who' comment.

It is just possible that Karen's little stick-shift exercise might very well be just the break they needed. She's attempting, however clumsily, to demonstrate that this is about her wanting to know that HE is satisfied, as opposed to simply getting off herself. (It's worth noting that one of the common complaints about such half-measures is that they rarely do as much for the girl.)
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Re: re: to the whole craziness

Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:15 pm

taotu wrote:
Uhm- yeah, whoever wants to take it slow gets what they want. If the other person isn't prepared to wait and work through those issues, well- they can find somebody else. It's that simple.



Exactly what i mean.
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:21 pm

iRobot wrote:
Sebastian wrote:So you don't think that exist various gradations of sex?


I'm not sure how you even inferred that from my post.


Maybe because you seems to imply that sex in the shower (what Karen attempted to do before) and a handjob (what she seems to be attempt now) the exact same thing, a respectable point of view , of course, just one that I don't share. Certainly you seems to think that Marshall believe it. Personally I'm more inclined to beleive that Marshall never stop to think that sex and cuddling could be different thing, he just put every manifestation of intimacy under the generic label of sex, but mostly by default, not really because he really believe them to be so.
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:42 pm

Ugly Hamster wrote:
TheTeague wrote:I'm not saying he's a bad person. I'm saying he isn't a great boyfriend and as far as libido goes, I don't think he's gay, rather asexual and needs to admit it to himself and explain it to Karen.


Oh, that question wasn't only directed to you, rather everyone who is on "Karen's side." I'd like to hear Sebastian's answer to my question. :)


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I don't think he is a bad person, he is just either oblivious or uncaring of what Karen want.
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Postby iRobot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:13 am

Sebastian wrote:Maybe because you seems to imply that sex in the shower (what Karen attempted to do before) and a handjob (what she seems to be attempt now) the exact same thing, a respectable point of view , of course, just one that I don't share. Certainly you seems to think that Marshall believe it. Personally I'm more inclined to beleive that Marshall never stop to think that sex and cuddling could be different thing, he just put every manifestation of intimacy under the generic label of sex, but mostly by default, not really because he really believe them to be so.


The first part of the post in question was inverting your own argument and using it against you.

The second part of the post was me saying that the person in a relationship that wants to take things slower gets the reins.

I don't feel that handjobs and intercourse are the same, but for one who's gunshy about sex (like Marshall) it isn't just about being gunshy about coitus, but sexual activity in general (which I do believe that handjobs do count as). :D
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Postby StarKruzr on Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:33 am

iRobot wrote:
Sebastian wrote:Maybe because you seems to imply that sex in the shower (what Karen attempted to do before) and a handjob (what she seems to be attempt now) the exact same thing, a respectable point of view , of course, just one that I don't share. Certainly you seems to think that Marshall believe it. Personally I'm more inclined to beleive that Marshall never stop to think that sex and cuddling could be different thing, he just put every manifestation of intimacy under the generic label of sex, but mostly by default, not really because he really believe them to be so.


The first part of the post in question was inverting your own argument and using it against you.

The second part of the post was me saying that the person in a relationship that wants to take things slower gets the reins.

I don't feel that handjobs and intercourse are the same, but for one who's gunshy about sex (like Marshall) it isn't just about being gunshy about coitus, but sexual activity in general (which I do believe that handjobs do count as). :D


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that anyone who is gunshy about sex (in the way that Marshall is gunshy about sex, which is to say he apparently hates and fears it) probably shouldn't go around telling women how much he "loves" them, because it indicates a level of maturity and readiness for emotional and romantic growth that Marshall apparently doesn't have.

(The upshot of all this is that Karen should break up with him yesterday)
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Postby blazelust on Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:01 am

Okay, I've been following this argument for a little while now, and while I've been tempted to reply a few times, this is the first time I've bothered to do so.

StarKruzr wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that anyone who is gunshy about sex (in the way that Marshall is gunshy about sex, which is to say he apparently hates and fears it) probably shouldn't go around telling women how much he "loves" them,


I think a lot of you are forgetting something. Karen is not a 'woman.' Marshall is not a 'man.' They're teenaged kids. So Marshall's confused about sex and doesn't want to go on with it for whatever reason. It's not his job to put out for his girlfriend just because she wants him to. If sex is so absolutely essential for Karen, she really ought to be dating someone else (and really, I hope she does.)

because it indicates a level of maturity and readiness for emotional and romantic growth that Marshall apparently doesn't have.


Uh, sorry? Just because someone doesn't want to have sex doesn't mean they don't have the capacity to love. Last time I checked, love doesn't come with a promise of fantastic sex on demand, especially concerning teenagers.

I don't know, maybe this argument has just been bothering me for a while because I'm a sixteen years old and I realize that I'm not mature enough to have sex yet. :-? I'm not 'gunshy,' and I'm not 'asexual,' I just don't want to yet. It's really not unusual to be a teenager and to be uninterested in sex, even if you're a guy. Marshall's also got some emotional issues that he needs to work through, and Karen is not helping.

Frankly, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Karen because she comes off to me as extremely manipulative right here.
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Postby Tsarevna_Erin on Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:46 am

blazelust wrote:I think a lot of you are forgetting something. Karen is not a 'woman.' Marshall is not a 'man.' They're teenaged kids. So Marshall's confused about sex and doesn't want to go on with it for whatever reason. It's not his job to put out for his girlfriend just because she wants him to. If sex is so absolutely essential for Karen, she really ought to be dating someone else (and really, I hope she does.)


I'm curious as to why, if you feel this way, you're giving Marshall a pass and implying that Karen is a worthless cunt. She's a teenaged kid, too. One who has felt "less than" probably for much of her life. She's not Aggie, who can go against the grain and still have something of a self-esteem afterward and not really give a flip what people think. Karen needs the reassurance. No, it's not Marshall's job to do what she wants just to salve her self-esteem, but if you're going to lecture us about "forgetting" that they are kids, then it doesn't seem fair that you're not giving her the benefit of the doubt.

Uh, sorry? Just because someone doesn't want to have sex doesn't mean they don't have the capacity to love. Last time I checked, love doesn't come with a promise of fantastic sex on demand, especially concerning teenagers.


Well, when you use phrases like "Swans mate for life," I can see how someone like Karen might take that, um, literally. I think Marshall has a definite view that a loving relationship doesn't equal sex. For awhile, I guess that's OK, especially being the age that they are. But at best, he's sent messages to Karen that she might have not been able to read well. In "Weights," the arc where they get together, they are, at some point, in his room, on his bed. They obviously didn't have sex, but they probably cuddled a good bit and maybe did some low-level touching. I could see Karen thinking that if he's OK with going that far, maybe he'd want to go farther.

I don't know, maybe this argument has just been bothering me for a while because I'm a sixteen years old and I realize that I'm not mature enough to have sex yet. :-? I'm not 'gunshy,' and I'm not 'asexual,' I just don't want to yet. It's really not unusual to be a teenager and to be uninterested in sex, even if you're a guy. Marshall's also got some emotional issues that he needs to work through, and Karen is not helping.


Then I'm turning your argument around on you - you say Marshall isn't required to fuck Karen just to make her feel loved and special and wanted. Then what does Karen "not helping" Marshall have to do with anything? Why is SHE required to help him and he's not required to help her?

Your dislike for Karen is leading you to make arguments that don't hold water. If you empathize with Marshall because of your own opinions, that's fine. But wagging your finger and telling people that they're wrong isn't on.
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Postby iRobot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:31 am

StarKruzr wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here


Be careful, that limb isn't going to support you.

and say that anyone who is gunshy about sex (in the way that Marshall is gunshy about sex, which is to say he apparently hates and fears it)


While he does seem certainly afraid, I wouldn't say he hates or fears sex. There are a whole lot of things that could make the poor boy reticent about going there, but that does not necessarily equate to hating or fearing sex. Maybe hating or fearing being used as a walking dildo, hating or fearing reliving the experience of some possible past trauma (say, like sexual abuse) or whatever it is that make him gunshy about sex.

probably shouldn't go around telling women how much he "loves" them, because it indicates a level of maturity and readiness for emotional and romantic growth that Marshall apparently doesn't have.


Having a bad experience and being reticent about sex doesn't equate to Marshall not having the appropriate "level of maturity and readiness for emotional and romantic growth." Let's say it aloud:

Sex does not equal love, nor romance.

Sure, sex can be used as a tool to express love (quite nicely, too), and sex can be quite romantic (give the right person and the right context). But sex is not love. It's only sex. Just as easily as sex can be used to expess love, sex can also be used solely to get your kicks. It can also (quite easily) be used to destroy another person emotionally and mentally to some degree.

So, um, yeah. Sex is not a precondition for love. It's nice, it feels good, and it goes together with love nicely--like mint and chocolate go well together. Still, you can have either mint or chocolate without the other and it doesn't diminish the flavour of either. Likewise, you can have sex and love independently of each other (personally, I prefer them together, but that's just me).

(The upshot of all this is that Karen should break up with him yesterday)


Whoever does the breaking up doesn't matter--they just need to break up.
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Postby blazelust on Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:24 pm

I'm curious as to why, if you feel this way, you're giving Marshall a pass and implying that Karen is a worthless cunt. She's a teenaged kid, too. One who has felt "less than" probably for much of her life.


I'm equally curious where I implied that Karen is a worthless cunt.

She's not Aggie, who can go against the grain and still have something of a self-esteem afterward and not really give a flip what people think. Karen needs the reassurance. No, it's not Marshall's job to do what she wants just to salve her self-esteem, but if you're going to lecture us about "forgetting" that they are kids, then it doesn't seem fair that you're not giving her the benefit of the doubt.


So, I admit that I'm not giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think that pressing the issue of sex on someone who has repeatedly turned her down is going to help her self-esteem. Karen wants to feel pretty and desirable, and she wants to feel wanted. Why is the only way to feel like this through sex?

Well, when you use phrases like "Swans mate for life," . . . They obviously didn't have sex, but they probably cuddled a good bit and maybe did some low-level touching. I could see Karen thinking that if he's OK with going that far, maybe he'd want to go farther.


'Swans mate for life.' Hmmm. Well, if swans = teenagers, then I can see that working. If life = couple of months. ;)

The weights arc was way before this. I think I'm safe in assuming that Marshall has already confirmed, several times, that he isn't okay with sex.

Then I'm turning your argument around on you - you say Marshall isn't required to fuck Karen just to make her feel loved and special and wanted. Then what does Karen "not helping" Marshall have to do with anything? Why is SHE required to help him and he's not required to help her?


I was using 'helping' figuratively. She is absolutely not entitled to help him. In fact, I think they could use some time apart to work with their separate issues.

Your dislike for Karen is leading you to make arguments that don't hold water. If you empathize with Marshall because of your own opinions, that's fine. But wagging your finger and telling people that they're wrong isn't on.


Hey! If you switch the names around, we can apply that statement to a lot of other people.
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Postby TheTeague on Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:09 pm

iRobot wrote:
StarKruzr wrote:(The upshot of all this is that Karen should break up with him yesterday)


Whoever does the breaking up doesn't matter--they just need to break up.


Actually, I think it'd be better if Karen dumped Marshall. She'd get some confidence out of the action and Marshall seems like he'd be either relieved to be rid of the annoyance, or just unfazed by experience.

The other way around, Marshal would lose his idealistic fantasy of the perfect relationship (which actually whould help him, I think) and Karen would be so devistated she might turn suicidal/bent on revenge.
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Postby TeaSlinky on Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:03 pm

(a note, even though many of my statements may sound like I am stating facts, I am well aware that they are just my opinions/take on things. I by no means think that what I say is indisputable fact. It
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Postby taotu on Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:06 am

Hey, I have a question, and I wonder why this hasn't been brought up... how long have they been dating?
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