I TOLD you Karen + Urology = Perfect Together

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Postby atristain on Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:03 pm

Draggy wrote:Hi I'm "Karen". (And the rest of the post)

:o Wow!

I love this Forum, where I can learn a lot from different point of views and expereinces. Even when I don't agree with some of you, I love to read people expressing their own opinios and ideas.

Welcome to all those first posters (sorry, I lost track, since this arc attracted more people than full frontal of Marshall :wink: )
The sound of rolling dice
To me is music in the air!
'Cause I'm a gamblin' Boogie Man
Although I don't play fair!
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Postby Draggy on Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:25 pm

Thanks for the greetings. It figures that the arc about sex attract more people than any thing. :P

Oh well, I guess T & G know how to rope in readers. Or at least make the silent ones speak up.
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Postby MRodriguez on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:26 pm

But see, you were young, you didn't know, and now you regret your actions. That's why I don't hate Karen, because she's HUMAN. She's stupid and she's wrong and she's doing stupid things she shouldn't do. And we have ALL done that, to an extent, maybe not where sex is involved but maybe we cheated in school or picked on someone smaller to feel bigger or lost our tempers and threw tantrums in public. It's part of being human, being wrong, and maybe I wouldn't like her as a person, I would probably smack her, but as a character... I love her.
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Postby Draggy on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:46 pm

MRodriguez wrote:But see, you were young, you didn't know, and now you regret your actions. That's why I don't hate Karen, because she's HUMAN. She's stupid and she's wrong and she's doing stupid things she shouldn't do. And we have ALL done that, to an extent, maybe not where sex is involved but maybe we cheated in school or picked on someone smaller to feel bigger or lost our tempers and threw tantrums in public. It's part of being human, being wrong, and maybe I wouldn't like her as a person, I would probably smack her, but as a character... I love her.


Oh no. I'm not saying to hate Karen. I'm just saying, from a person who's been there, don't justify her. I know she's human (as a fictional character). I don't hate her myself. But I can't justify her actions.

There are people in this forum, that earlier justified her hasty choice to go for the gold. I'm telling them, that doesn't work. TC makes very real characters. And I doubt they'll have this end in an unrealistic mannor.

Based on the character's behaviors and what we've seen. And been thrown hints of - Marshall's not gonna roll over and take this. Even if she gets him to climax. Karen's not gonna be any happier through physical interaction. And she may lose Marshall over her lack of respect for his wishes.

There are people on here saying she'll be happier with someone who can give her sex. I'm telling them I don't believe so, since I've been there.

By all means, don't hate anyone. Even I don't hate Karen. But I'm not cheering for her in this arc either. When she goes back to using her looks to show the popular kids, the ugly duckling can be one of them, then I'll root for her again.
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Postby Freemage on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:58 pm

Draggy: It's always dangerous to so thoroughly map your own experiences onto the characters, although of course I suspect just about all of us are doing it to a lesser extent.

I agree with the general premise that "Sex alone will not make Karen any happier." However, it's not just sex that's being talked about. Giselle's a damn fine artist, and doesn't just use body language accidentally. Marshall maintains an almost constant space between them for a reason, and he has not effectively conveyed that reason to Karen. It's the latter part that's driving her desperation, since in the absence of a comprehensible reason, she's supplied one that she can understand--he's being nice, but isn't really interested in her, and she's still the dumpy, unattractive girl she's always viewed herself as.

So no, sex isn't going to make her happier. Intimacy, however, as in a boyfriend who can demonstrate her his emotions, rather than just reciting a script, might just be exactly what she needs.
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Postby Draggy on Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:16 pm

Freemage wrote:Draggy: It's always dangerous to so thoroughly map your own experiences onto the characters, although of course I suspect just about all of us are doing it to a lesser extent.


Thankyou Freemage. Though really, my post wasn't so much aimed at people on the board that understand my point of view.

I don't mind maping that experiance out. Since its something I've gotten over it. And I didn't give out my information or my boyfriend's in it. I gave it simply because Karen and I (at that point in my life) were so close together. And from what I've seen on the boards, people argue the realistic nature of characters like Marshall - and justify actions like Karen's. And say "well in the real world this" and i"n the real world that."

I am the real world. Thoes actions don't work. (Though belive me, I'll probably never really bring up my life again because I don't relate to any other characters in this strip. I just love reading it.) And yes, Giselle's a fine artist. And I do pick up on the distance, body movements, and placement of characters. (last info on me I swear - I'm an art major looking to be a comic artist). And I understand Karen's need to feel loved.

But I can go back through these boards (not just this one) and find at least five people who have expressed a physicall relationship either with or without Marshall is what she needs. And she should do what she wants to get it. That's why I made my post. I was hoping those people would read it and understand it doesn't help.


But yea, Marshall could use with some training in "How to open up to your Girlfriend".
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Postby El Durazno Muerte on Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:32 pm

I don't really think Marshall is being phony or reading from a script. People occasionally say incredibly, teeth-grindingly corny things and earnestly mean them. I know I do.

I think he's just lousy at expressing himself, which contrasts him nicely with Duane and Stan.
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:18 am

Draggy wrote:Getting sex from Marsall or anyone won't make Karen feel any better. It won't make Marshell any better. It will only get worse.


True, but NOT getting sex (and with sex I mean any kind of intimacy) from Marshall or anyone else would make Karen feel better? Taking your story as an example, you left your boyfriend, had phisical reltionship with other men and after that you knew that sex was not what you really wanted from a relationship, but how could you know that if you didn't left him? would not there the risk that you remained miserable for 4 years, feeling that it was your fault if he didn't wanted have sex with you, or that he was with you only out of pity?

I'm not saying that acting like she is would make Karen happier, but I don't think that doing nothing would help her, too and I can see others realistic options for her. Of course the best solution would be that she become mature with a wave of a magic wand, but I know that T's comics are always awfully short of magic wands.
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Postby taotu on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:31 am

MRodriguez wrote:If she were real, I'd be like 'ewww') but seriously, pulling out the law books doesn't make you look smart, but the very opposite, because life is infinitely more complicated than the law books could EVER cover.


I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I tried to solve an argument about the technical definition of rape by providing that definition, at least in the context of this situation. I didn't mean to make the situation seem more or less serious than it was, simply solve an argument, and let people know that if something like that happened to you, or you were in Karen's place, that it could be considered serious by some people. That's all.

I was in no way trying to discuss the inherent MORAL issues, here, but trying to adress the LEGAL issues that I thought people were debating. I'm sorry if you feel that was out of line.

Tarlia wrote:Hate to be terribly technical here, but the definition of rape doesn't include any unwanted sexual contact. Rape, per definition, involves penetration.

What you're trying to accuse Karen of is sexual assault at most (which doesn't make it okay, or any better, if that's indeed what's going on), but please stop calling it rape.


Totally depends on the legal code, but in many cases, you're totally correct.

It's too bad that, despite all your chutzpah, taotu is still right.


I appreciate the support, sir, but there's no need to be so rude.

Trollroot wrote:I fear he is not.


I'm a she, actually. And I absolutely see your point- I was just willing to risk the backlash in order to make a point that I felt to be important.

Furthermore, I did not mean for my comments to be directed specifically towards the woman who was a victim of rape, but rather just as a general point of interest.

Do you really feel that an attempt to prosecute somebody for groping someone would be so astronomically unsuccessful? The equivalent case in a civil court would be likely to go remarkably successfully... but I could certainly see your case being unacceptable to go to court, and it certainly would be in Marshall's case. Thanks for your two cents, even if you do disagree with me. :)

It strikes me as kind of weird how alot of people are saying they're not going to judge Karen's actions until they see how Marshall reacts.


I wasn't judging the moral aspect of it based on his reaction (I think she is in the wrong) but rather the legal- because it's all about the reaction of the victim that defines a crime. Anyway, it's a moot point, now. I think we all agree that while Karen's actions might technically fall under sexual assault, it's more a matter of the moral consequences.

What also amazes me is the amount of discussion about whether Marsh is being sexually assaulted or not. I suppose by legal definition he probably is, but good luck getting that to stand up (pardon the pun) in a court of law.


Oh God, you'd be laughed out of court. Lack of evidence doesn't go well with such a non-serious charge.

Oh, and welcome to the boards, sir! *Salutes*

Weak guy: "I am going to punch you."

Strong guy: "I insist that you do not."

*Weak guy strikes strong guy, who does nothing about it.*

Strong guy: "I am now going to contact the local law enforcement agency, or perhaps commit a similar deed against your person."

Weak guy: "As I am physically weaker than you, you could have stopped me. That you didn't implies that you wanted me to punch you."

Strong guy: "The steely grip of your logic has rendered me incapable of retaliatory action."

...........Though I don't think guys punching each other can really be used as an analogy for sexual happenings. I'm not even sure if analogy was the right word to use there. Whatever I'm gonna go play some Warhammer.


*Giggles* You made my day. That's awesome. I think the analogy works, personally.

...Phew, that was a loooooong post.

Anyway, long story short. I apologize if I offended anybody by my words, but I stand by what I said. Oh, and I am female.
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Postby Glishara on Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:24 am

What this whole thing feels like to me, more than the punching analogy, is the kind of codependence you see sometimes in an abusive relationship. I don't mean to say that what Karen is doing is in line with hitting Marshall, but the pattern here is a fairly familiar one.

Karen does something Marshall doesn't want her to do. She pushes until Marshall finally walks away. Then she breaks down, begging him not to leave her. He comes back cautiously. She tells him he needs to do more to help her not do the unacceptable things. She tells him she loves him. Then she returns directly to the kind of behavior she was doing to set off the entire problem in the first place.

Is Marshall at fault for not just walking away? Absolutely. But he loves her, and she is (intentionally or otherwise - I'm on the fence about the matter) emotionally manipulating him to stay despite the way she's treating him. And once she thinks she's succeeded and has the power, er, in her hands, the emotional vulnerability drops away and you get that somewhat chilling grin in panel 5.
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Postby cookievore on Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:50 am

RUN GLISHARA D: THEY'S GONNA EET JOO ALIVE FO THAT ANALOGY!


Whee! Though, along the lines of what your saying, my Aunt's a lawyer at a Women's Crisis Center. You wouldn't believe all the PFA's she gets granted, only to be tossed aside because these girls 'are in love'.

Though really, I don't think Karen and Marshall are in love at all. They're supposed to be 16, aye? Now call me crazy, but I believe the vast majority of teenagers do not fully comprehend the concept of love. Hell, most people under thirty don't (which isn't to say people that young don't fall *in* love, but I always thought love and 'in love' were different). Hence why most failed marriages occur with people under the age of thirty. They're very in love, but they never really get to the whole love part.

ANYWAY, before the endless cookie babbles start, I think Marshall and Karen are as in love as a couple of kids can be. They're more or less being completely ruled by the emotional aspects of the feeling, not so much the brains. I can't fault them for that, cuz wtf, I was a stupid giddy teenager too. I'm also a stupid giddy 20 something now (but I like to think I'm smart enough to not rush into marriage. We are waiting for quite some years for several reasons). Lalala cookie babbles.

IN CONCLUSION, it'd be exceedingly helpful for them to learn each others boundaries. Boundaries boundaries boundaries, it is THE most important thing in a relationship (it goes hand in hand with talking, as one must set up boundaries for talking whilst they talk. Or something to that effect).

Also, Sebastian, they cuddled in Weights. Or does that not count in your mind because Marshall wasn't holding Karen close and whispering sweet swan filled nothings?

Seriously. Shutting up now. After I say RentACop's little skit made me LAWL. It probably wasn't supposed to, but the color of cookie does not match the brightest crayon in the box. Whee!
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Postby Beanie on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:52 am

Sebastian wrote:True, but NOT getting sex (and with sex I mean any kind of intimacy) from Marshall or anyone else would make Karen feel better?


I'm sorry, but are you actually suggesting that Karen should leave Marshall and go get herself further emotionally wounded in who knows how many other relationships, and that it will HELP HER..?

Yes, not having sex with Marshall, or anyone else, right now at this moment in her current emotional state, WILL make Karen feel better. In the long run. Life isn't going to end after Karen gets her cherry popped (not likely to, anyway.) So let's not promote emotionally self-destructive behaviour by suggesting Karen dump Marshall specifically for somebody who WILL put out, shall we?

I quite hope I'm severely misreading your post.


Yes, Karen needs to get away from Marshall. She needs to get away from relationships entirely and work on herself. Because nobody can "fix" her. Not a boyfriend who will whisper sweet nothings (and sweet somethings, to boot!) to her, cuddle her, hang all over her in public, plow her, and tell her she's sexy and pretty every second of the day, or whatever else people think Marshall should or shouldn't be.
Nobody can fix Karen but Karen.

It might not be entirely "realistic," as you call it, to want her to get off the relationship train before it hits the mountain. But neither is expecting your best friend to leave her husband the first time he hits her.
That doesn't make staying on the train, even if she switches seats or cars, a good thing.



In retrospect, it's interesting that I very much want Karen to stop and work on herself, and I haven't even once expressed interest in Marshall fixing whatever it is that makes him so apparently distant...
...Ah well. Women and children first!
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Postby Freemage on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:12 am

Beanie: I'm mostly in agreement with you--both of these two need a lot of work. I submit that it is possible that they could manage to work through their issues together, if they can open up the lines of communication.
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Postby Draggy on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:27 am

Hmmm, another change of scene...though this looks like it finishes up Penny and Rich.

I guess this arc is ending soon....I hope that didn't mean that Monday was the last bit of Karen/Marshall. Because that would really stink. :grumble:
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:13 am

Beanie wrote:
Sebastian wrote:True, but NOT getting sex (and with sex I mean any kind of intimacy) from Marshall or anyone else would make Karen feel better?


I'm sorry, but are you actually suggesting that Karen should leave Marshall and go get herself further emotionally wounded in who knows how many other relationships, and that it will HELP HER..?


No, I'm saying that Marshall should get out from his ice coccon and start show (show, not tell) some sign of affection for Karen, I don't mean sex, even a hug would be enough, have you noticed that he barely touch her?

cookievore wrote:Also, Sebastian, they cuddled in Weights. Or does that not count in your mind because Marshall wasn't holding Karen close and whispering sweet swan filled nothings?


No, I don't conisder it cuddling because they was not even touching.
You consider this cuddling? Then if he'd kiss her what would it be? Wild sex!?
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Postby cookievore on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:33 am

OH SNAP, I was so seriously owned there. Though on the plus side, that makes my sex life supremely awesome 8) Sah-weet.

But let us not be twitlings. Obviously they've discussed Marshall's issues to some extent off the cameras, so perhaps (brace yourself for this one now) there was cuddling behind the scenes too.

OMG NO WAI!!! D: YA WAI :D I know, let's go ask the Mighty Makers if they've cuddled off camera, we can settle this once and for all. After that, I shall announce that I am really your father and we'll call it a night.
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:45 am

Beanie wrote:
Sebastian wrote:True, but NOT getting sex (and with sex I mean any kind of intimacy) from Marshall or anyone else would make Karen feel better?


I'm sorry, but are you actually suggesting that Karen should leave Marshall and go get herself further emotionally wounded in who knows how many other relationships, and that it will HELP HER..?

No, but I think that stay in the relationship AS IS now would not help her, either, I think what they should do is talk about it and find a middle ground between Karen "sex! now!!" and Marshall's "I love you, Karen,- Just don't touch me too much", but apparently he don't want or care to talk and Karen is not able/not mature enough to do it. So if could I have a choice I rather prefer for her to push the issue, even in the unhortodox way she is using, than just doing nothing, or even worse some copout where they have a sudden and uncharacteristicly mature discussion that solve everything.

P.S. Do you think is right for Marshall to decide all by himself the sexual standard of their relationship? Don't you think Karen should have a voice in it? Or you are ok with Marshall's actual "absolutely no sex of any form and grade because I say so, and until I say so"?
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:06 pm

cookievore wrote:OH SNAP, I was so seriously owned there. Though on the plus side, that makes my sex life supremely awesome 8) Sah-weet.

Well, sorry, but I don't consider something "cuddling" if you can do it at the phone. :)
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Postby sordideuphemism on Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:08 pm

Sebastian wrote:Well, sorry, but I don't consider something "cuddling" if you can do it at the phone. :)

There are folks who pay 1.95 a minute for that privelege.
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re: to the whole craziness

Postby Kia Purity on Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:35 pm

Hooboy. The reason why no one has seen any objection from him is because he's not had a chance to react yet.

(Two previous posts already pointed this out.)

And Phoenix Wright avatar = the win.

Anyway, it's likely that he'll probably freak out again. I don't think Karen is ever going to learn. *shakes her head* Not if he keeps coming back and apologize, it's only repeating the cycle. :| And it's only to get uglier... if it hasn't already with what's happened.

People leap on this part of the arc the most because it's really painful to watch two people do things that are so completely painful and royally stupid. The other people (Stan, Michelle, Penny, Rich...etc) didn't get this much reaction like Karen and Marshall has simply because this is the train wreck that's just too damn hard to not walk away from.
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Postby iRobot on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:04 pm

isobel wrote: (snippage) So there's my micro-essay on, "whoops, I got a little too caught up in my own view of a successful relationship to think there were other ways to go about dating and love."


Beautiful post. I know I've done the same thing myself--it's all too easy too get wrapped up into one's own views and forget that there are other perspectives. I'm very fortunate that my friends are a very diverse group of freaks, and they keep me in check. :)
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:08 pm

sordideuphemism wrote:
Sebastian wrote:Well, sorry, but I don't consider something "cuddling" if you can do it at the phone. :)

There are folks who pay 1.95 a minute for that privelege.

No, that's sex (well, phone-sex)

you can have sex without cuddling, like you can cuddling without have sex.

Maybe is just me, but by my definition cuddling is when you get close to your significative other and ... just enjoy his/her phisical proximity. You don't need to kiss, or pet, or anything. Just hold each other.

But it should involve phisical contact of some kind, I suppose that by a more extended definiton could include even the above comic, but if Marshall consider that cuddling, he have even bigger issues than I thought. :-?
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Postby iRobot on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:13 pm

Sebastian wrote:Do you think is right for Marshall to decide all by himself the sexual standard of their relationship? Don't you think Karen should have a voice in it? Or you are ok with Marshall's actual "absolutely no sex of any form and grade because I say so, and until I say so"?


Umm... Do you think is right for Karen to decide all by herself the sexual standard of their relationship? Don't you think Marshall should have a voice in it? Or you are ok with Karen's actual "let's have sex regardless of whether or not you're comfortable with it because I say so, and when I say so?"

....

In a relationship, the person who wants to take it slower or the least far gets to decide how far and how fast things should go (whether sexually or emotionally). The other person in the relationship can either accept that, try to find some middle ground (not always available), or break off the relationship--because pushing someone who isn't ready is a good way to destroy a relationship, destroy trust, be hurtful, get a restraining order, or a lot of other things that are generally best avoided.
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Postby Freemage on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:16 pm

cookievore wrote:OH SNAP, I was so seriously owned there. Though on the plus side, that makes my sex life supremely awesome 8) Sah-weet.

But let us not be twitlings. Obviously they've discussed Marshall's issues to some extent off the cameras, so perhaps (brace yourself for this one now) there was cuddling behind the scenes too.

OMG NO WAI!!! D: YA WAI :D I know, let's go ask the Mighty Makers if they've cuddled off camera, we can settle this once and for all. After that, I shall announce that I am really your father and we'll call it a night.


Okay, simply put, I regard only what we actually know, or at LEAST the writers have deliberately suggested, as evidence. Yes, we know that they've talked about some mysterious 'you-know-who' that is Marshall's reason for not wanting sex. That's ALL we know. It may have been a ten-second convo; it may have been a five-day ongoing discussion complete with diagrams, submitted testimony and other aids. We can legitimately draw some conclusions from that fact, however, particularly combined with the statement from Karen that she still doesn't understand his reasons.

What we haven't seen, at ALL, is Marshall initiating physical contact. Ever. So we have as much reason to suggest that he does so 'off-camera' as we do to suggest that he's got a collection of severed heads in the fridge.
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Postby Sebastian on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:47 pm

iRobot wrote:
Sebastian wrote:Do you think is right for Marshall to decide all by himself the sexual standard of their relationship? Don't you think Karen should have a voice in it? Or you are ok with Marshall's actual "absolutely no sex of any form and grade because I say so, and until I say so"?


Umm... Do you think is right for Karen to decide all by herself the sexual standard of their relationship? Don't you think Marshall should have a voice in it? Or you are ok with Karen's actual "let's have sex regardless of whether or not you're comfortable with it because I say so, and when I say so?"

....

In a relationship, the person who wants to take it slower or the least far gets to decide how far and how fast things should go (whether sexually or emotionally). The other person in the relationship can either accept that, try to find some middle ground (not always available), or break off the relationship--because pushing someone who isn't ready is a good way to destroy a relationship, destroy trust, be hurtful, get a restraining order, or a lot of other things that are generally best avoided.


So you don't think that exist various gradations of sex? Not just "chastity" and "full sexual multiple rapports with toys and spectators", but even; i don't know, heavy petting, reciprocate masturbation (that for someone is a different category from full sex) or just cuddling, or kissing.
Karen started to see if he was willing to do the full act in the shower, he said no, now she saying "ok, you don't want to f***, what about if I touch you to make feel you good?" Now, I call this trying to find a middle ground, sure, done with all the subtetly and the delicacy(sp?) of a jackhammer, but at least she is trying to .. em, "comunicate".
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