[10/20] Usually...

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Re: [10/20] Usually...

Postby CaptainSparkles on Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:36 pm

Backdoor Nucleotide wrote:
For one thing - That's a crossover born in hell.


Clever.

For more than the obvious.
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Postby missMagdalena on Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:23 pm

She's a freaking teenager, OF COURSE she didn't put a whole lot of thought into things. God, I'm so sick of people expecting so much of these KIDS. They're KIDS. Their whole purpose is to make mistakes. Why would anyone read a story about perfect, robot teenagers who always do the right thing?


Walking in on someone in the shower for the purpose of pushing unwanted sex on them is far more than a simple mistake. I like Karen too, and I hardly expect these kids to be perfect (for example, I wasn't surprised at Aggie's "because he's black" comment) but this comic shows exactly how far she's really gone.

"What's wroooong? Am I making you uncomfy? Are you afraid you might lose control with me standing right... ooh."

I could see how Karen's body image issues, her insecurity, her desire to have her attractiveness confirmed, and her naivety in the world of sexuality could lead her to make comments like that. It's not an excuse, but it's at least believable. Forgiveable.

However, knowing that he has some past experience that makes him particularly sensitive to sexual advances like that, and still going on like this? She should know there's nothing cute or sexy about "making him uncomfy", and that it's not a matter of control. Her actions are reprehensible. She clearly doesn't know Marshall at all, and I feel bad that he has so much emotionally invested in someone who understands him so poorly. (It works the other way, too: I feel bad for Karen, to have so much emotionally invested in someone she understands so poorly.)
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Postby Saint_37 on Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:39 pm

Kraren is such a stupid hoe, but yet she's acutally brutally honest about marshall loving her sometimes not being the most important thing to her in their relationship. What is going on with this girl?
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Postby Car_Crash on Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:55 pm

Let's see...

"I'm sorry, I know you have cold feet because of You-Know-Who but (...) I thought you were just being nice (...)"

That sort of sounds like she heard an explanation but didn't realize it was true. Maybe Marshall pulled out the religion card? We've never seen him say "I don't want to have sex before marriage" but maybe he was hinting at it with all of his "we're too young" comments?

There's probably all kinds of religions that have specific instructions about sex. So, maybe "You-Know-Who" is Jesus or some other deity?
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Postby Buggy on Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:27 pm

You know who is whats her face, the Omega-Sister...mumbley-jane..

Made the Irony fairy quit over that whole "punish those who misrepresent gods love" bit.

darn, can't think of a name.
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Postby LeonardC on Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:15 pm

I'm really not sure how to feel about Karen at this point.

A lot of it depends on just how sincere her crying really is. To the extent that it is, I feel a fair bit better about her - she really was just oblivious and no longer is, and in the future she's likely to take him more seriously. It doesn't excuse what she did, but I think it can make it forgivable.

However...

Karen is pretty manipulative, and the first trick in the manipulator's book is to soak the floor in crocodile tears when you're worried you're about to lose something you control. If she's doing THAT, she's really lost any lingering sympathy I had for her - even though the reason I first started posting on these forums was to defend her.

The problem is that sometimes these motivations aren't entirely separate. You do actually really guilty, but you're also trying any tactic to keep someone around. :-? I guess the real test is in how she acts from here on in. If she shows real consideration for his (or others'!) feelings in the future, I'll agree with the people saying "it's part of being a teenager and growing up." If she goes back to her usual tricks, she's dead to me.
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Postby Freemage on Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:29 pm

Beanie wrote:
isobel wrote:Okay, who thinks Karen is still kind of a shit? Now we know he's explained it to her at some length but she still pressed on. Also, although I have to commend her honesty, I don't think "Sometimes, usually" is exactly a great answer to Marshall's question. I dislike it not because it's not what I'd want her to say, but because anyone saying that really needs to sort out their own issues before dating. For their own health.


I entirely agree.


It's so hard to feel sorry for somebody who seems intent on dragging others down with them.


Congratulations to both of you on your immaculate perfection. Clearly, I am unworthy to respond to your posts.
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Re: [10/20] Usually...

Postby ZillahLewis on Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:07 pm

Now who is "who-know-you"?

No one has noticed this, have they? Sorry. That's just crazy.

Anyways, yeah, who the hell is this kid, raping my Marshall? Or, in recognition of Car_Crash's religion card, who the hell is this Jesus kid, leading my Marshall on the path to righteousness and miraculous booze and stuff?

I actually always thought he looked kind of like Jesus. Just, younger, and without the beard and dark skin.

By the way,
Congratulations to both of you on your immaculate perfection. Clearly, I am unworthy to respond to your posts.

Nice.
Ciao,
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Postby isobel on Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:08 pm

Whatever snotty point that was supposed to make, I missed it. I think Karen has been a shit. I like that she has finally been honest, but that doesn't make what she has done okay, and it doesn't mean she's at all stable enough to be dating a guy so off-kilter right now. I've never said I hated her (I did say I don't hate her, though, in this thread), I never said she was inherently worse than anyone else, I never said I'm better than her. That said, I think assaulting someone with known physical/emotional intimacy problems in a public place is a very poor choice and I don't think she should be let off the hook for it, even if she was insecure. She overstepped the line juuuust a wee bit. Disagree all you want, but I'd prefer it be on, y'know, person-to-person, direct (Yes, insofar as one can have this on an internet messageboard) terms.
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Postby Tarlia on Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:43 am

Seems like I'm the only one who feels sorry for both of them and don't particularly feel like condemning any of them at this point. We don't know enough yet.
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Postby S. Edmund on Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:35 am

you know, I'm surprised no one has really said anything about marshall's dialouge. paired with the body language, it comes off to me as really insecure, and a bit condescending. if he has issues and doesn't want to touch her, alright. but you'd think he'd say it lookin a little more...sympathetic.

I'm hoping there'll be another strip in this storyarch where karen spills her guts.
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Postby RisingPhoenix on Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:40 am

You know, the majority of Christians don't have anything against a little cuddling. I'm not a fan of the fundimentalists, but even there most of them will admit you're allowed to be close to your girlfriend (though they'll babble on about temptation). That distance is completely unnatural, and something more than religion is to blame.
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Postby Car_Crash on Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:55 pm

I know the majority of Christians don't have anything against cuddling. But maybe he's not in the majority? Or, you know, in some other religion? They do exist!

Again, "I'm sorry, I know you have cold feet because of You-Know-Who but (...) I thought you were just being nice"

What are our options here? "I thought you were just being nice when you told me that story about how you got molested by your baby-sitter?" "I thought you were just being nice when you shared that story about random other girl breaking your heart?" "I thought you were just being nice when you told me your brother would get insanely jealous if you had sex before him?"

Maybe I'm being an idiot but one of the only way I see that sentence making sense is if he played the religion card. Unless he went for "I'm not even sure I like girls, give me some space to figure it out?"
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Postby StarKruzr on Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:45 pm

You know what, Marshall? You know what you call people whom you love but aren't attracted to (because that is totally what "I love you, isn't that "enough" is implying)?

FRIENDS.

The man needs to straighten his feelings out.
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Postby sopdetly on Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:49 pm

KiZeR wrote:There is no Voldemort, he's just gay.


This is the BEST line ever, both in AND out of context. Just had to say :D
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Postby iRobot on Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:09 pm

StarKruzr wrote:You know what, Marshall? You know what you call people whom you love but aren't attracted to (because that is totally what "I love you, isn't that "enough" is implying)?

FRIENDS.

The man needs to straighten his feelings out.


Why are you assuming that he isn't attracted to her? Just because the boy's gun-shy from a past trauma doesn't mean he's not all yum on Karen.
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Postby StarKruzr on Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:11 pm

iRobot wrote:
StarKruzr wrote:You know what, Marshall? You know what you call people whom you love but aren't attracted to (because that is totally what "I love you, isn't that "enough" is implying)?

FRIENDS.

The man needs to straighten his feelings out.


Why are you assuming that he isn't attracted to her? Just because the boy's gun-shy from a past trauma doesn't mean he's not all yum on Karen.


It's because he used the word "enough." As in "I love you, and that's it, exclusive of the sexual attraction you are implying I should have for you."

It's a long reach, but I think maybe evidence backs it up.
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Postby Freemage on Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:14 am

Car_Crash wrote:Again, "I'm sorry, I know you have cold feet because of You-Know-Who but (...) I thought you were just being nice"

What are our options here? "I thought you were just being nice when you told me that story about how you got molested by your baby-sitter?" "I thought you were just being nice when you shared that story about random other girl breaking your heart?" "I thought you were just being nice when you told me your brother would get insanely jealous if you had sex before him?"

Maybe I'm being an idiot but one of the only way I see that sentence making sense is if he played the religion card.


Actually, yeah, the middle one in your list is what several of us have been pulling for all along, and the 'you-know-who' line would be pretty typical of that sort of story.

The "I thought you were being nice" part means, she thought he was being 'nice' to her--that she didn't have any real effect on him, and that he wasn't interested. In other words, she thought he was only staying with her to be kind, not because of any real interest in Karen.

Hence his reply. Even bare-bones, yeah, it's a direct statement of love, which is something he's been pretty gunshy about up til now. (It is worth noting that in a great many relationships, the timing and frequency of 'the L-word' is one of the greatest sources of friction and trouble, so this is hardly something Marshal's alone in.)
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Postby Tarlia on Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:26 am

StarKruzr wrote:It's because he used the word "enough." As in "I love you, and that's it, exclusive of the sexual attraction you are implying I should have for you."

It's a long reach, but I think maybe evidence backs it up.


Really? Because I read it more like:

"I love you. Isn't that enough? Do we have to have sex right away for it to be enough?"

He's never said he's not attracted to her, he just does not want to have sex yet. Implying he wants to have sex at some point. Just not yet.
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Postby ellen_olenska on Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:51 am

StarKruzr wrote:It's because he used the word "enough." As in "I love you, and that's it, exclusive of the sexual attraction you are implying I should have for you."

It's a long reach, but I think maybe evidence backs it up.


Look at the comic again! He doesn't use the word "enough".
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Postby Tarlia on Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:16 am

ellen_olenska wrote:
StarKruzr wrote:It's because he used the word "enough." As in "I love you, and that's it, exclusive of the sexual attraction you are implying I should have for you."

It's a long reach, but I think maybe evidence backs it up.


Look at the comic again! He doesn't use the word "enough".


Heh, indeed. I overlooked that too.
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Postby Freemage on Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:57 pm

Tarlia wrote:
StarKruzr wrote:It's because he used the word "enough." As in "I love you, and that's it, exclusive of the sexual attraction you are implying I should have for you."

It's a long reach, but I think maybe evidence backs it up.


Really? Because I read it more like:

"I love you. Isn't that enough? Do we have to have sex right away for it to be enough?"

He's never said he's not attracted to her, he just does not want to have sex yet. Implying he wants to have sex at some point. Just not yet.


There's a key word in your post. "Implying". That's the problem. Karen's never been in any sort of relationship, so is bad at actually reading someone. Marshall, meanwhile, is heavy on implying what he's actually thinking.
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Postby Tarlia on Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:40 pm

Freemage wrote:There's a key word in your post. "Implying". That's the problem. Karen's never been in any sort of relationship, so is bad at actually reading someone. Marshall, meanwhile, is heavy on implying what he's actually thinking.


Um... yeah, I don't know how that disputes anything I said. I was just saying that nothing he said or did in this strip indicates he finds her unattractive.
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Postby iRobot on Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:59 pm

StarKruzr wrote:It's because he used the word "enough."


As Ellen pointed out, he doesn't. He says, "Karen, I love you. Love. You. Isn't that the important thing?"

As in "I love you, and that's it, exclusive of the sexual attraction you are implying I should have for you."


While I can see how you may interpret it that way--I saw it more as, "the attraction that I feel for you is light years beyond mere physical longing--it's the longing of the soul." Or something to that effect. :)

It's a long reach, but I think maybe evidence backs it up.


I disagree, but neither of us are likely to the convince the other so maybe we should just agree to disagree until there's more conclusive evidence (most likely when the arc has been resolved). Though I suppose that's not nearly as fun, eh? :D
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Postby MRodriguez on Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:27 pm

There's a lot of people I love, but not quite as many people I find attractive. There IS a difference between loving someone and finding someone attractive, and to someone like Karen being found attractive is just as important, if not more important than being loved. Right now anyway, because despite everything she's done, deep down her self-esteem is probably still at negative ten.

And YES, she did disregard Marshall's issues, but Marshall is disregarding hers. He hasn't said anything like 'you're very SEXY, but I just can't right now because of you-know-who.' or anything to really say that he thinks she's beautiful. Just that he loves her.

Sometimes, you just want to feel sexy.

And what I keep on trying to say is that yes, what Karen did was thoughtless and wrong, but dude, not everyone is perfect. I've done some pretty stupid stuff in my day. And comparing Penny to Hitler? Not so harmless since there's still students who haven't forgiven Penny for something she never really did. And we wouldn't BE here in the first place with Marshall and Karen if it hadn't been for Penny using Karen.

And I'm not saying that what Karen did to Marshall was right, no, it wasn't, but people are over reacting. It was thoughtless, and it was wrong, it was a stupid choice. I'm not letting her off the hook, but at the same time, she's not a complete villian. I've done a lot of things I shouldn't be let off the hook for, and so has everyone else participating in this thread, I'm sure.

Edit: and yes, the 'he's GAY' crew is being a little too hard on Marshall, I don't think Marshall is a bad person either, just damaged. I just identify with Karen more and there's less people actually sticking up for her and more people condeming her. And no, I don't think Marshall should put out if he doesn't want to, but he should acknowledge that she is sexually attractive, at least. Make her feel BEAUTIFUL and HOT.
Last edited by MRodriguez on Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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