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The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Postby Freemage on Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:37 pm

Beanie wrote:
Freemage wrote:[I personally think that physical intimacy IS an important part of a relationship. If Marshall isn't getting any more intimate than what we've seen, then frankly, she SHOULD leave him, if it's not someplace he's willing to go. Honestly, a certain degree of 'being the bastard' is healthy--it keeps people from being locked into a relationship where they aren't really happy.


I think my problem with this whole situation is she's not wanting sex to have physical intimacy in a relationship (nor is sex the only way to have physical intimacy in a relationship, but I digress) - she wants sex to validate herself.

http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20060906.html

That's what really, really, really bothers me about this. She's not going to be happy even if they did have sex, because there's still "broken" stuff inside of her that has to be fixed first.


Oh, hell, yes. None of the folks pointing fingers at Marshall's behavior has really suggested otherwise. Karen is carrying around a lot of baggage, no doubt. We just don't think the buck stops there--there's blame to go around, and more than just a snowflakes' worth of blame in an avalanche.
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Postby ivy-chan on Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:21 pm

Saint_37 wrote:
Tarlia wrote:I sincerely hope tomorrow's comic will put an end to this.


AMEN AND AMEN!

Seriously this is worse than a freakin poly sci class somebody tie a knot to this already.


I think that debate is a fun and profitable activity to engage in, as long as both parties remain logical and calm, and it doesn't resort to petty name-calling and circular logic. Some people are still bringing up new points to be explored, so we haven't ground down all the way yet. The next comic of Marshall and Karen will bring yet more discussion fodder, and the thread will grow ever larger and/or spawn smaller threads with the same topic. There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion, as long as it doesn't get all redundant and stale. :)

Meanwhile, my position hasn't changed much: both parties aren't relating to each other, they have communication issues that stem from inability to open up, Karen is acting on a medley of bad impetuses, from preconceived notions on romantic relationships to mega insecurity, and Marshall seems to be acting on a steel plated, sexual moral compass. The definite, direct, active, blame for this particular scenario here lies on Karen, although both parties have problems and blame in this relationship, although on the scales of blame-age, Karen's side is tipping heavily. Once again, I do not exclude Marshall from any blame. He is indirectly causing Karen's actions.

I do agree with Freemage, and think that we need more information than this to make an absolute judgement. More flashbacks, more conversation, or more Marshall POV.
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Pizza

Postby iRobot on Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:31 pm

Freemage wrote:On that, actually, we agree. I personally think that physical intimacy IS an important part of a relationship. If Marshall isn't getting any more intimate than what we've seen, then frankly, she SHOULD leave him, if it's not someplace he's willing to go. Honestly, a certain degree of 'being the bastard' is healthy--it keeps people from being locked into a relationship where they aren't really happy.


Personally, I agree that if the two of them can't reconcile their disparate needs that it would be better for the both of them to part ways.
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Re: Pizza

Postby isobel on Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:07 pm

iRobot wrote:
Freemage wrote:On that, actually, we agree. I personally think that physical intimacy IS an important part of a relationship. If Marshall isn't getting any more intimate than what we've seen, then frankly, she SHOULD leave him, if it's not someplace he's willing to go. Honestly, a certain degree of 'being the bastard' is healthy--it keeps people from being locked into a relationship where they aren't really happy.


Personally, I agree that if the two of them can't reconcile their disparate needs that it would be better for the both of them to part ways.

Seconded, especially since I'm not sure either of them should even be dating now as is; forget about dating each other, they need to work some stuff out solo. Marshall has whatever problems he has about intimacy, which means dating will be difficult until he resolves them or improves his screening process and finds a girl with the same values. Karen has...well, what doesn't Karen have? She's not happy with herself, and that pretty much precludes happiness with anyone else. She's really gotta learn to stand on her own two feet before she tries this relationship thing again.
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Postby isobel on Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:13 pm

And since Keenspace is utterly worthless and won't let me edit, I'll put the prettified and hopefully-clearer rendition of the post here:

iRobot wrote:
Freemage wrote:On that, actually, we agree. I personally think that physical intimacy IS an important part of a relationship. If Marshall isn't getting any more intimate than what we've seen, then frankly, she SHOULD leave him, if it's not someplace he's willing to go. Honestly, a certain degree of 'being the bastard' is healthy--it keeps people from being locked into a relationship where they aren't really happy.


Personally, I agree that if the two of them can't reconcile their disparate needs that it would be better for the both of them to part ways.

Seconded, especially since I'm not sure either of them should even be dating now as is; forget about dating each other, they need to work some stuff out solo before dating anyone. Marshall has whatever problems he has about intimacy, which means dating will be difficult until he resolves them or improves his screening process and finds a girl with the same values. Karen has...well, what doesn't Karen have? She's not happy with herself, and that pretty much precludes happiness with anyone else. She's really gotta learn to stand on her own two feet before she tries this relationship thing again.

A terrible thought just occurred to me: Rich is still sore with Penny, and Karen'd be pissed/crushed with Marshall...there is the possibility of awful-awful, world-crunching, brain-melting REVENGE SEX. Oh. Oh God no no. So many kinds of very bad idea. :o
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Postby Tarlia on Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:18 pm

Freemage wrote:Nah, you'd only get slammed if the genders were reversed, because then it would be a guy dumping a girl for sex, and that's always wrong.


Well, if he wanted it badly enough to break up, then yes, he should break up, because it would be a pointless relationship and would end in tears either way.

Karen, however, like many others have said, doesn't want the sex for the sake of sex, she wants it to feel beautiful. Had she just wanted it for the sex, badly enough to break up, she should be breaking up too.
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Postby isobel on Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:11 pm

Okay, who thinks Karen is still kind of a shit? Now we know he's explained it to her at some length but she still pressed on. Also, although I have to commend her honesty, I don't think "Sometimes, usually" is exactly a great answer to Marshall's question. I dislike it not because it's not what I'd want her to say, but because anyone saying that really needs to sort out their own issues before dating. For their own health.

Now for the fun part...who is "you-know-who?" :evilgrin:
My vote is Charlotte, for her outrageous self-hate and her sad, sad scene in the strip where everyone's pining.
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Postby ria on Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:15 pm

"Karen, I love you. Love. You. But I'm going to stand over you and lean back as though repulsed by your naked insecurity."

I know, silly criticism, but his stance is a little telling. :)

Good for Karen for being cooperative and opening up. Good for Marshall for not walking out on her. It's a small amount of progress, but they both just gained a +1 Maturity.
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Postby isobel on Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:23 pm

FWIW, I think it's supposed to illustrate his "cold feet" for us. Like, he got hurt reeeeally badly, so now he's even scared of Karen, vulnerable and helpless as she is right now.
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Postby Raitoo on Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:29 pm

*squints* Is that a bulge I see under his towel in panel 3?
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Postby Archon Divinus on Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:34 pm

You-know-who? Probably what's-her-name.
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Postby Freemage on Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:14 am

Raitoo wrote:*squints* Is that a bulge I see under his towel in panel 3?


*CoughsMarshallapparentlyfallstotherightcoughs*
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Postby Papuasblya on Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:20 am

I still say there's something immediately and obviously wrong with his body language. So Danger Worm is slapping his thigh, big deal. He's SAYING all the right stuff. "I won't leave you, I love you, squawk, insert next tape...." and he's handing her a towel. I grant you, he loves her and cares for her; he's a good guy and maybe the best guy she could have right now. But his demeanor is one of distance, like some chaste idol sadly unable to return the affections of some temple novitiate. A nice straight kid who just wants to keep The Big Donut off his diet a little longer would at least HUG the girl for Pete's sake. I no longer care whether he's gay, straight, bi or whatever -- somebody put the wrong sauce on this boy's eggs a long time ago, straight up.
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Postby LeonardC on Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:22 pm

Papuasblya wrote:I still say there's something immediately and obviously wrong with his body language. So Danger Worm is slapping his thigh, big deal. He's SAYING all the right stuff. "I won't leave you, I love you, squawk, insert next tape...." and he's handing her a towel. I grant you, he loves her and cares for her; he's a good guy and maybe the best guy she could have right now. But his demeanor is one of distance, like some chaste idol sadly unable to return the affections of some temple novitiate. A nice straight kid who just wants to keep The Big Donut off his diet a little longer would at least HUG the girl for Pete's sake. I no longer care whether he's gay, straight, bi or whatever -- somebody put the wrong sauce on this boy's eggs a long time ago, straight up.


Makes sense to me. She ignored his wishes, which we now know were based on a past trauma she KNEW about, so he's probably a little hurt and shaken, and scared. Perhaps more importantly, she is still naked, and he's still erect, and she already just tried to use both of these things as an excuse to get what she wanted. A hug could be really taken the wrong way right now.

Thus, the towel. I'm betting that once it's wrapped around her - and probably once he gets a little less excited, so to speak - the hug will be coming.
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Postby Papuasblya on Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:04 am

LeonardC wrote:Makes sense to me. She ignored his wishes, which we now know were based on a past trauma she KNEW about, so he's probably a little hurt and shaken, and scared. Perhaps more importantly, she is still naked, and he's still erect, and she already just tried to use both of these things as an excuse to get what she wanted. A hug could be really taken the wrong way right now.

Thus, the towel. I'm betting that once it's wrapped around her - and probably once he gets a little less excited, so to speak - the hug will be coming.


True, a hug would be counterproductive. But I bet you he simply won't touch her, not even to put his hands on her shoulders like a friend. He'll try to do this without an iota of physical contact.

Because the ONLY part of him reacting normally, without pose or restraint, is the Little Corporal.
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Postby Sebastian on Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:48 am

LeonardC wrote:Makes sense to me. She ignored his wishes, which we now know were based on a past trauma she KNEW about, so he's probably a little hurt and shaken, and scared. Perhaps more importantly, she is still naked, and he's still erect, and she already just tried to use both of these things as an excuse to get what she wanted. A hug could be really taken the wrong way right now.

Thus, the towel. I'm betting that once it's wrapped around her - and probably once he gets a little less excited, so to speak - the hug will be coming.


I'd agree with you if it wasn't for his face's expression. It is a little too cold for confort, IMHO.
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