that's a "no"

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that's a "no"

Postby Fen on Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:19 pm

poor poor Karen. She had it coming.
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Postby ria on Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:27 pm

I don't think she "had it coming"...

I wish there were some way to get some sense in her head without hurting her like this.
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Postby ria on Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:40 pm

I have to say, if he just gets up and leaves -- boo on him.

He should sit down with her, naked or not (take the opportunity with the locker room being empty) -- and talk. Openly. Tell her exactly why he is not wanting it now, and explain how all her unthinking advances have made him feel. And she needs to be just as honest with why she is being so pushy about all this.

Basically -- they need to communicate! Like anybody in a successful relationship should do.

I'm not ruling out that Marshall has some issues (I think we all agree Karen does).. they need to be up front with each other about this stuff if they really care about each other.

I can see Marshall either trying to sit her down and talk to her about this stuff (whether she cooperates or not) -- he doesn't seem the type to continue being angry; he's already made his point firmly and she seems to finally begin to "get" it -- or just walking out. And he'd better not do the latter.
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Postby StarKruzr on Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:41 pm

She didn't "have it coming" at all. She is profoundly insecure about her appearance and Marshall knows this.

Monday's strip is going to be interesting. We may finally find out what the hell Marshall's problem is.
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Postby Zombielicious on Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:42 pm

I think she had it coming. Marshall has been very clear with her on this point; he don't think they're ready to have TEH S3XX0R yet, so she should understand that it's bugging him when she show him such disrespect in a manner like this.

...I don't like Karen.
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Postby Zombielicious on Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:43 pm

ria wrote:He should sit down with her, naked or not (take the opportunity with the locker room being empty) -- and talk. Openly. Tell her exactly why he is not wanting it now, and explain how all her unthinking advances have made him feel. And she needs to be just as honest with why she is being so pushy about all this.


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Postby Sebastian on Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:01 am

StarKruzr wrote:She didn't "have it coming" at all. She is profoundly insecure about her appearance and Marshall knows this.


Mmh, I don't think he does. Why should he, is it not like something
Monday's strip is going to be interesting. We may finally find out what the hell Marshall's problem is.

You mean wednesday's strip, right (if we are lucky), we still have to see Penny and Rick, Charisma and Aggie/Aggie's dad, Stan and Michelle... Am I forgetting someone?
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Postby Freemage on Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:09 am

Sebastian wrote:You mean wednesday's strip, right (if we are lucky), we still have to see Penny and Rick, Charisma and Aggie/Aggie's dad, Stan and Michelle... Am I forgetting someone?


Hell, they could just let this part go and wait until a couple story-arcs later to show us what happens after this...
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Postby Kitsuiko on Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:20 am

Pretend for a moment we're dealing with Marsha and Kevin.

Marsha doesn't want sex, and has explained this. Kevin keeps on insisting and hinting he does, partially because Kevin has recently become attractive.

Kevin corners Marsha in the shower, staring at her breasts and making advances. Marsha is incredibly upset, asks if he cares at all about her feelings, and when Kevin is still too busy looking at her breasts walks off. Kevin gets upset, realizing his girlfriend is upset, and says "I didn't know you were so upset about it!"

Why did I switch the genders around? Because I believe if it were a girl and a guy, this would be pretty open-and-shut in most people's minds. We're told "A girl has the right to say no" and "A girl's desires should be respected" even if a 'guy has lead them on.' And we don't expect the girl to have to prove anything -- if she's in the situation and it's over her head, saying "No, I'm not ready for this" is as far as American culture goes, beginning and end.

Marshall told her that he wasn't ready for sex, and that's perfectly fair. He doesn't need to defend himself, he's just not ready, and that should be enough. It doesn't need to be a dramatic historic reason, and it doesn't need to be something to "prove" to people he's not ready. He doesn't want to yet and that's where it should stop. They should talk about it, but, end of the day if he's not ready then he just isn't.

If a girl says "No" we expect the guy to stop, no matter what, and back off. Why should we expect less of Karen when it's a boy on the receiving end?

We know Stan is insecure too. If he pushed with Michelle even though she was hesitant would we justify him the same way we're justifying Karen?
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Postby StarKruzr on Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:54 am

Kitsuiko wrote:Pretend for a moment we're dealing with Marsha and Kevin.

Marsha doesn't want sex, and has explained this. Kevin keeps on insisting and hinting he does, partially because Kevin has recently become attractive.

Kevin corners Marsha in the shower, staring at her breasts and making advances. Marsha is incredibly upset, asks if he cares at all about her feelings, and when Kevin is still too busy looking at her breasts walks off. Kevin gets upset, realizing his girlfriend is upset, and says "I didn't know you were so upset about it!"

Why did I switch the genders around? Because I believe if it were a girl and a guy, this would be pretty open-and-shut in most people's minds. We're told "A girl has the right to say no" and "A girl's desires should be respected" even if a 'guy has lead them on.' And we don't expect the girl to have to prove anything -- if she's in the situation and it's over her head, saying "No, I'm not ready for this" is as far as American culture goes, beginning and end.

Marshall told her that he wasn't ready for sex, and that's perfectly fair. He doesn't need to defend himself, he's just not ready, and that should be enough. It doesn't need to be a dramatic historic reason, and it doesn't need to be something to "prove" to people he's not ready. He doesn't want to yet and that's where it should stop. They should talk about it, but, end of the day if he's not ready then he just isn't.

If a girl says "No" we expect the guy to stop, no matter what, and back off. Why should we expect less of Karen when it's a boy on the receiving end?

We know Stan is insecure too. If he pushed with Michelle even though she was hesitant would we justify him the same way we're justifying Karen?


Because. Men. And women. Are different.

Even if you DON'T accept that men and women are different, you must at LEAST acknowledge that Karen is functioning from traditional male-female social norms -- she is expecting Marshall to act like a guy who has a sex drive. Even if didn't want to have sex with her, you would at LEAST expect to see some heavy petting in the shower. You would expect to see SOME kind of physical intimacy from the guy. Karen is expecting him to WANT her -- or at least hoping he wants her -- and for him not to react as if he wants her is obviously bewildering and hurting her.
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Postby Stella Polaris on Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:16 am

I do think she had it coming. She does have issues, yes, but they excuse her behaviour. Having issues don't justify behaving like a total dick.

Not to mention how pathetic she looked, sitting naked on the floor. Plz.
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Re: that's a "no"

Postby Sebastian on Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:25 am

Fen wrote:poor poor Karen. She had it coming.


Maybe she did, and I don't particolary like her, but even so I feel bad for Karen now. :(
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Postby iRobot on Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:46 am

StarKruzr wrote:Because. Men. And women. Are different.


Double standard.

Even if you DON'T accept that men and women are different, you must at LEAST acknowledge that Karen is functioning from traditional male-female social norms -- she is expecting Marshall to act like a guy who has a sex drive.


No, she is expecting him to be a walking dildo. On top of that, and more importantly, she is disrespecting his choice.

Even if didn't want to have sex with her, you would at LEAST expect to see some heavy petting in the shower.


BS. After getting annoyed by someone who can't respect your wishes, any desire for intimacy is gone.

You would expect to see SOME kind of physical intimacy from the guy.


After the stunt that Karen pulled? No.

Karen is expecting him to WANT her -- or at least hoping he wants her -- and for him not to react as if he wants her is obviously bewildering and hurting her.


Karen's not getting it through her thick skull that Marshal's not ready for the sexual aspect of a relationship, and that there are many other ways in which he has already shown her that he wants her.
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Postby Nekodromeda on Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:04 am

To iRobot: Werd. Wordy McWordword.

Who's to say that men are completely controlled by their dicks and don't have any wishes of their own that should be respected, especially by someone lie thier girlfriend? As a girl, I do think that Karen had it coming- she's been pushing and pushing and pushing the matter even though she clearly knows Marshall's stance on this. She hasn't been treating his position with any respect whatsoever, and I'm amazed that Marshall's been as (relatively) tolerant of this as he has. She might have body image issues that lead to this- and if so, SHE NEEDS TO TELL HIM. There needs to be communication here if this relationship is to work.
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Postby SirBob on Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:18 am

StarKruzr wrote:Karen is expecting him to WANT her -- or at least hoping he wants her -- and for him not to react as if he wants her is obviously bewildering and hurting her.

Are you suggesting that guys have an obligation to accept any sexual advances that come their way? :roll:

I think Karen's just having trouble getting her head around the notion that guys don't, in fact, want to have sex with anybody at any time. It's literally inconceivable to her that he'd decline her advances unless there was something profoundly wrong with her; when he says "no", what she hears is "you're defective". While it's true that he could have put it a little more delicately, I don't think it would have made much difference. The popular misconception that men want it 24/7 and don't care with whom means that there's simply no way for a guy to say "sorry, not interested" without having it come off as a grave insult.
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Postby ivy-chan on Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:43 am

I, too, think she had this coming, and wait before leaping on me...she had this or something similar coming for a long time. Karen has so far shown little interest in the desires of others- her desires run roughshod over anything other people might want. She believes this behavior is acceptable because of how attractive she is, and of course anyone will bend to her whims because of that. I don't think her behavior toward Marshall was willfully malicious. It was unacceptable and somewhat callous, but I don't think she truly unserstood what she was doing. (Not like her actions toward Penny and Aggie, where she knew very damn well what she was doing.)

Yes, it's unfortunate that she's in pain right now, but she caused it herself. She needs to accept the consequences of her actions. Her insecurities and emotional problems are NOT an excuse for her actions. They are the reason she acts like a self-centered bitch, but they do not excuse her from being one. They are not a 'get out of problems free' pass. She's not the only one who is hurting in this scene: Marshall is upset because Karen didn't respect his wishes at all. The way it looks here, she just wants him for sex and that's it, and Marshall clearly wanted an emotional attachment and committment. He's not crumpled into a naked ball on the floor, but he's probably just as hurt as she is.

I agree that there needs to be a long talk, but I don't think he owes her an explanation for his actions- not because he's a poor abused victim, but because he already explained several times. He's told Karen that he doesn't want sex, he's not ready for it, he doesn't want her jumping on him, etc. Any further explanation would be a rehash of everything he's said before, only more emphatic. I guess the best thing to do right now is to have them put their clothes on and go somewhere that is not the public showers to talk it out. Hopefully Marshall can forgive her and give her a second chance, and hopefully Karen can learn and grow from mistakes.


That aside, MEN ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO BE BLOW UP DOLLS FOR THEIR GIRLFRIENDS. Men are allowed to have standards. They are allowed to have choices about their sex life without having to be insulted or seen as less of a man for having them. They are allowed to have, god help me, feelings. And NONE of these aforementioned qualities make them just like women. I really don't want to work into this issue any more than it has, but it's unbelievable that it actually is one.
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Postby oddtail on Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:25 am

SirBob wrote:
StarKruzr wrote:Karen is expecting him to WANT her -- or at least hoping he wants her -- and for him not to react as if he wants her is obviously bewildering and hurting her.

Are you suggesting that guys have an obligation to accept any sexual advances that come their way? :roll:


Hey, I like this idea, I want it to work both ways! ;) I can see it already: "I'm really, really self-conscious about my looks. Therefore, you are obliged to have sex with me."

Next step: trying the line with anyone that shows even a passing interest in oneself :smug: .

OK, now seriously: I know the argument's been done to death, but... think of the situation while swapping genders (wow, that's apparently a very... productive piece of advice in M/F relations)
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Postby SAGG on Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:05 am

StarKruzr wrote:She didn't "have it coming" at all. She is profoundly insecure about her appearance and Marshall knows this.

Monday's strip is going to be interesting. We may finally find out what the hell Marshall's problem is.



And former Congressman Foley claims he was molested as a boy, and is an alcoholic. Boo freaking hoo. :roll:

Marshall drove home the point before, it seemed to me. Karen didn't have the decency to wait, and moved right in on him. She violated his privacy, period. Unfortunately, Marshall's probably gulliable enough to go right back to her (no, I'm not taking about forgiveness here. That would take Karen sincerely apologizing, and promising him that she would never do this again), and pick up where they left off, with Karen taking advantage of his believing in her innate "goodness". He seems to be a genuinely nice guy, and quite frankly, I think that's a nice change of pace from characters that do stupid and silly things, and I'm supposed to "sympathize" with their "faults" because I can "identify" with them.

It's one thing for Karen to be more confident in herself as to before she lost weight. It's quite another thing for her to use her newfound confidence to think that the "beautiful people" can do whatever they want with it. I predicted a bad thing to occur in the shower, and it did. Karen should've known better.
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Postby Frances on Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:32 am

Kitsuiko wrote:If a girl says "No" we expect the guy to stop, no matter what, and back off. Why should we expect less of Karen when it's a boy on the receiving end?

I don't think it's that people are expecting less of Karen, morally speaking. But I suspect many people would be less upset about Karen's behaviour than they would be about Kevin's.

I think that it's because the common perception is going to be that Karen is not as strong as Marshall and even if willing to disregard his wishes to that extent has less capability to physically assault him and force him to have sex with her.

Similarly, the common perception is going to be that Kevin is stronger than Marsha, and if he is willing to disregard her wishes to that extent he has much more capability to physically assault her and force her to have sex with him.

In other words, the reaction is not based exclusively on whether it's a guy or a girl who is selfishly pushing for sex; it's a matter of how much of a plausible threat of sexual assault and rape might follow from their behaviour.

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Postby Tarlia on Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:43 am

StarKruzr wrote:Because. Men. And women. Are different.


People are different.
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Postby Kizor on Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:49 am

Tarlia wrote:
StarKruzr wrote:Because. Men. And women. Are different.


People are different.


*Makes note for future use*
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Postby Kina on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:03 am

I've been lurking for well over a year now and am finally riled up enough to get involved in a (very minor) debate.

Karen was, before this shower scene, oblivious to Marshall's desires. Yes, I say she was OBLIVIOUS. She didn't grasp the concept that he was not ready. It was too difficult for her to expand her paradigm and imagine that a boy, specifically a very attractive boy, not want sex right away. I'm not quite positive if this is because of the fact that clearly, clearly all boys want is sexsexsex. /sarcasm

It may also be because that is the only way she can identify intimacy in a relationship. We cannot rule that theory out. I'm fairly positive that she understands that Marshall does not want sex, but I'm also fairly positive that she will see that as a lack of desire for her and a lack of desire for an intimate relationship with her.

Low self-esteem warps people to a rather disturbing degree. When she was fat, no one acknowledged her. She more than likely did not have a boyfriend. Her vision of intimacy was probably only seen through her parents (if they are even around) and through what she sees in public, on TV, in movies, in books, etc. What does media like to portray? Sex.

I honestly think this was coming, I believe that Karen set herself up for a very bad fall. I will even put the entire blame on her, since she never tried to understand what Marshall was saying.

Anyway, I think what I was trying to say is that Karen is very messed up, but she is still to blame. It isn't that hard, no matter how demented your self-love is, to try and listen to someone you claim to care about.
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Postby atristain on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:25 am

StarKruzr wrote:Even if didn't want to have sex with her, you would at LEAST expect to see some heavy petting in the shower. You would expect to see SOME kind of physical intimacy from the guy.

Nope. I didn't expect that. A lot of people in the forum didn't expect that. And more importantly: Marshall didn't expect that. That's what YOU expected. Don't expect that everyone (male of female) act the same way you do or the way you think they should act.

About saying he doesn't want intimacy, I know a lot of people that call intimacy being alone in the same room, in the same bed, even when they had their clothes still on. Or do you always need to be naked with somebody to have intimacy?

I don't know what's passing through Marshall's mind right now, but even when it looks like he's p*ssed off, I hope he opens to Karen, and more importantly: Karen opens to him. It's time she stops thinking that "Pretty people can get away with whatever they want" shite. She had no respect for no one, even those that helped her to become what she is now, Marshall included. Now that it has blown in her face it's time to face that she was wrong all this time.

Note: I don't hate Karen. I pity her. Her 1" sqr world is shattering. It's time for her to look at the big picture. She also needs to respect people as individuals, not as disposable items, or toys under her control. Unless she does, she's going to end being very, very lonely.

From what we see in the last panel, it looks like we'll learn that Marshall is *gasp* human, after all...

About the art: Now that we see her without clothes and crawled in a ball, Gis finally answered how much she changed her shape. She still has a belly, but with stretch clothes and the right posture she can disguise that fact. It's impossible to get to a Penny's clique's body (almost anorexic) when you're built big and have neglected yourself for a long time. I know this first hand since I weighted 170, sizing 5'8", and managed to achieve weighting under 140 in TWO years. Karen seems to be working for one year, 1 1/2 tops. She has lost a lot of weight, but she still has a few miles to go.
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Postby JK9000 on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:32 am

Screw Karen, man.

Wait.

I mean, forget Karen, man.

I'm not sure it was possible for Marshall to make it any more clear he didn't want sex before without being a total jerk about it. And honestly, he was already heading down that path. They've had this conversation before.

Karen ignored it. Yeah, she's incescure, but that's a fairly selfish reason to try to force sex on a guy. She ignored it, and kept on pushing, until Marshall had to grab her and yell at her before she finnaly got it, and then she breaks down in tears? Forget her.

That said, the only decent thing to do here would be to stay and talk about this-- not naked, hopefully. Yeah, she's completely ignored him on the subject before, but she seems in a receptive move.

Men and Women are different, no doubt, but anyone who tries to engage in sex for completely selfish reasons and not only ignores the feelings of his/her partner, but acts in direct defiance of them, is Not A Good Person.
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Postby Kina on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:42 am

JK9000 wrote:Men and Women are different, no doubt, but anyone who tries to engage in sex for completely selfish reasons and not only ignores the feelings of his/her partner, but acts in direct defiance of them, is Not A Good Person.

This statement? Fab. Very fab.
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