What is with the unrealistic male characters?

The teenage years. Friendships, crushes, growth... and hating. Lots of hating.

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Postby JK9000 on Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:49 pm

As a guy, I gotta say, I don't find any of the guys in the strip all that unrealistic. Then again, mayhap that extends from being non-standard myself. *shrug*

As an unrelated sidenote, "Homophobia" is plenty standard. Look it up in any dictionary and you'll find it described as a general fear/hatred towards homosexuality.
Literal translation of the root-words != Functional definition of the word.
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Postby ria on Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:44 pm

I'm seeing a lot of misconceptions about men and about women in here, yes. I wouldn't call it misandry/misogyny/homophobia (although keep in mind one needn't be Fred Phelps to be a homophobe to some degree), but some misconceptions, yes.

For example -- I have not seen one smack of evidence that Michelle is expecting her first time at sex to be "special" or to lead into any sort of relationship. I've seen her be a horndog, basically. She thinks Stan is hawt. She wanted to have sex with him. She is viewing sex and virginity almost like the stereotypical guy, really: they don't heap any great meaningfulness on their first time partner, but they heap great amounts of significance on no longer being a virgin -- I would say that is her view here; where anybody got the idea that she "expects something special" her first time (besides the fact that she's a girl) Idunno...
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Re: What is with the unrealistic male characters?

Postby Teamgiza on Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:56 pm

KiZeR wrote:All the guys are acting like girls!
Oh sh1t. I really must be half girl.
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Postby StarKruzr on Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:46 am

isobel wrote:Enaronia: I'm open to Marshall being atypical and trauma-free, but I've seen some stuff in other parts of the comic that suggest the boy's got issues. At the end of "Weights" he's getting all scared of people and emotions, and he went postal at Aggie in "Crushed" for what sounded like the same reasons. I'm still guessing, like the rest of us, I just give trauma my vote because of some other points in the comic.


Yeah. Either Marshall is screwed up because of trauma, or he is "just like that."

The thing is, to be "just like that" you have to be strange enough to begin with that whatever factor causes him to be "just like that" probably affects his behavior in a lot of other weird ways.

Either way, Marshall Has Issues.
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Postby MRodriguez on Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:10 am

Ummm.... Aggie is very realistic, actually. I only say this because I'M exactly like Aggie, and it's sadder in my case because I'm 22, but last time I checked I'm real flesh and bone. I can honestly see myself saying something like the Hitler comment, as a matter of fact, I was surprised that everyone was so down on her because of it, because it didn't seem all that... strange or wrong to me. I WASN'T as out going and prone to outbursts as Aggie in highschool, but that was only because I had it bullied out of me in fifth grade, and was (and still am) terrified of people by the time Highschool rolled around.

Marshall and Stan don't seem that off either, they're just not stereotypes, but most people aren't.
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Postby Starline on Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:41 am

Freemage wrote:
Ostracee wrote:Okay, I've got to say, some of the things in this thread are completely horrible - I have never seen this much misandry and homophobia in a page and a half. That said,



BZZZZZTTTT!!!! We have a wrong answer.

Sorry, but even as someone who has not been posting, "Marshall is gay," I find that attack overbroad and insulting.

Homophobia is a non-standard term (since it should actually mean 'fear of things that are the same') for people with a hatred of homosexuals.

Fred Phelps is a homophobe. The folks suspecting that Marshall MIGHT be a closeted gay (even to himself) are not. This doesn't mean they're right, but branding them as gay-bashers is sufficiently far enough out of line to request both a retraction and an apology.

Misandry is a bit more accurate (in the posts stating, "No straight teenage male would ever refuse sex/think through the consequences of sex with a virgin"), though most of THAT is coming from, um, other guys. When women see female characters portrayed in an unrealistic fashion in other comics, they usually respond accordingly; Marshall and (to a lesser extent) Stan are sufficiently far off the norm that it at least is getting male readers to ask, "What's up with that?"


Just as a sidenote (and nothing to do with you arguement really), but I just wanted to say that you can have misandry/misgyny against your own gender.
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Postby Ostracee on Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:16 am

ria wrote:For example -- I have not seen one smack of evidence that Michelle is expecting her first time at sex to be "special" or to lead into any sort of relationship. I've seen her be a horndog, basically. She thinks Stan is hawt. She wanted to have sex with him. She is viewing sex and virginity almost like the stereotypical guy, really: they don't heap any great meaningfulness on their first time partner, but they heap great amounts of significance on no longer being a virgin -- I would say that is her view here; where anybody got the idea that she "expects something special" her first time (besides the fact that she's a girl) Idunno...


No, no, I'm not saying she thinks that, I'm saying he thinks she thinks that.
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Postby iRobot on Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:36 am

JK9000 wrote:As a guy, I gotta say, I don't find any of the guys in the strip all that unrealistic. Then again, mayhap that extends from being non-standard myself. *shrug*


What, you don't feel like falling into an obsolete gender stereotype?

Can't blame you, neither do I.
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Postby Frances on Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:07 pm

KiZeR wrote:In high school, only girls look down on the prospect of sleeping with a virgin, which is why I say Stan is acting like a girl.

...girls look down on the prospect of sleeping with a virgin? Since when?

(Explain this slowly and gently. I must have mised the memo that told me how to behave to properly fit in with the hive mind.)

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Postby Frances on Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:11 pm

Freemage wrote:Homophobia is a non-standard term (since it should actually mean 'fear of things that are the same') for people with a hatred of homosexuals.

The Oxford dictionary (Canadian edition) lists it as meaning exactly that, with no indications on the entry that it's a slag or specialized term.

What exactly do you mean by "non-standard term"?

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Re: The problem isn't

Postby Frances on Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:13 pm

KiZeR wrote:There is Duane, pining over Penny, a girl he'll never have, while not realizing Angie likes him.

I missed Angie. Who's she?

(If you mean Aggie, I'm going to have to completely disagree, but I assume that isn't the case.)

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Postby RisingPhoenix on Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:41 pm

Marshall is... odd. There's something seriously wrong with him.

I am male, I'm between 18 and 40, and I gotta say... guys do not react that way. Almost period. He's either had something seriously traumatic happen to him, or has had something he thinks is seriously traumatic happen to him. I really dislike him. Even those who have a puratin dislike of sex do not mind making out. There's a lot you can do without sex. He doesn't have a fear of sex, he has a fear of intimacy. He's scared of someone getting close to him.


Stan is an actual nice guy, which I don't feel Marshall is. Niceness is one way of never having to open up to anyone, and while that's Marshall's gig, I just think Stan is shocked that anyone would give up their virginity, with him, for such utterly trivial reasons. Throw in his severe crush/hero worship thing he has going on with Rick, and you have one very confused guy. That's normal. He gets that she's doing this for all the wrong reasons, and is actually trying to help her out. I know guys who would do that. Unlike Marshall...
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Postby Frances on Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:20 pm

RisingPhoenix wrote:Marshall is... odd. There's something seriously wrong with him.

It occurs to me that many people I know would, if they were not ready for sex with someone, not be any *more* ready for it if they were pushed to do it within hearing range of casual acquaintances or strangers, many of whom were older than them.

RisingPhoenix wrote:I am male, I'm between 18 and 40, and I gotta say... guys do not react that way. Almost period. He's either had something seriously traumatic happen to him, or has had something he thinks is seriously traumatic happen to him. I really dislike him. Even those who have a puratin dislike of sex do not mind making out.

I really do feel there are exceptions to this. Then again, perhaps Marshall is the exception that results in you writing "almost period" rather than "period".

It *was* noted, during the cast weeks, that he has a great many feminine traits and that's part of what makes him so attractive.

RisingPhoenix wrote:There's a lot you can do without sex. He doesn't have a fear of sex, he has a fear of intimacy. He's scared of someone getting close to him.

I read it more as having a fear that the sex will ruin the intimacy. Karen seems quite ?forthright?/?pushy? about sex.

He is also nearly killingly sweet and kind and gentle. If he has any reason to see sex as dirty or cheap or something that causes people to treat other people badly (like, say, refusing to take no for an answer and pushing in every way except using physical force), I can see him declining.

(You know, I cannot help but feel that if Marshall was pushing Karen this way, and guilt-tripping her, and spilling things on her so she'd have to take her clothes off, and walking into the girls locker room when he knew she was having a shower, very few people would be saying "My god, Karen's so unrealistic, there's something wrong with her." I realize the dynamic is different--for one thing, I can't see Karen being capable of overpowering and physically forcing Marshall--but I don't think that really excuses the sheer selfishness she's showing, even if what she's been selfish about is an unusual trait in him.)

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Postby taotu on Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:01 pm

They aren't unrealistic. They're shockingly real, actually. I've got a brother and mostly male friends, and I'm pretty damned sure they'd react the same way as Marshall is to Karen...

I mean, good God, people, how clear is the double standard being presented here? If the situation was reversed, Karen could knock Marshall out with a chair and people wouldn't think anything of it. But Marshall is trying to sensitively but firmly turn her down- so he must be gay? He made it clear he wasn't interested in having sex with her yet, and that he would be in the future when he felt that he was ready. She isn't respecting this whatsoever. But of course, Marshall's a guy. He should be thinking with his other head, and not take offence at this clear disrespect for his values and feelings on the matter of sex, but rather just lay back and accept it.

...That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard!

Guys and girls think of sex in very like manners. Women want it just as much as men do, men find it just as important as women do, and we're all nervous as hell when we first start dealing with it! It's just a matter of the individual person's values regarding sex- no matter your gender. Anybody who thinks otherwise has clearly not spent enough time around a member of the opposite sex- or just hasn't bothered to pay attention to them.
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Postby RisingPhoenix on Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:01 pm

Frances wrote:
RisingPhoenix wrote:Marshall is... odd. There's something seriously wrong with him.

It occurs to me that many people I know would, if they were not ready for sex with someone, not be any *more* ready for it if they were pushed to do it within hearing range of casual acquaintances or strangers, many of whom were older than them.
Yes, because so many guys would be angry about this. Turn it down? Sure. I can see that. ANGRY? Call it a double standard, call it what you will, it's not a natural reaction. Period.
I really do feel there are exceptions to this. Then again, perhaps Marshall is the exception that results in you writing "almost period" rather than "period".

It *was* noted, during the cast weeks, that he has a great many feminine traits and that's part of what makes him so attractive.
Almost period includes guys who have had very bad experiences. That's it. To put it simply, guys are not insulted when a girl wants to have sex with them. Guys are not angry when the girl is forward. Maybe its cultural. Maybe its only in America. Guys can turn it down. Guys can do a lot of things. The anger is odd, and the fact that he doesn't explain himself is odd. Why does he want to wait? If it was so simple, he could explain it.

I read it more as having a fear that the sex will ruin the intimacy. Karen seems quite ?forthright?/?pushy? about sex.

He is also nearly killingly sweet and kind and gentle. If he has any reason to see sex as dirty or cheap or something that causes people to treat other people badly (like, say, refusing to take no for an answer and pushing in every way except using physical force), I can see him declining.

(You know, I cannot help but feel that if Marshall was pushing Karen this way, and guilt-tripping her, and spilling things on her so she'd have to take her clothes off, and walking into the girls locker room when he knew she was having a shower, very few people would be saying "My god, Karen's so unrealistic, there's something wrong with her." I realize the dynamic is different--for one thing, I can't see Karen being capable of overpowering and physically forcing Marshall--but I don't think that really excuses the sheer selfishness she's showing, even if what she's been selfish about is an unusual trait in him.)
Really? Besides the physical pushyness I'd be a little surprised if a girl was acting the way Karen was without any good explaination she could vocalize. And the physical pushyness can be explained by the simple fact that barring an incredible difference in physical exertion and training, your average guy has so many physical advantages over your average woman its absurd. Of course social stigma have grown up around guys using those advantages (that's equality - those with power, and guys do have physical power, HAVE to use that power responsibly, if there is to be equality). Karen would be acting odd if she was acting that way for no reason she explained. Yes, maybe there's a cultural hangover from the 50s, where women just weren't interested in those sorts of things, that would make the oddness more explicable, but it would still be odd.
They aren't unrealistic. They're shockingly real, actually. I've got a brother and mostly male friends, and I'm pretty damned sure they'd react the same way as Marshall is to Karen...
They wouldn't.

Guys and girls think of sex in very like manners.
TOTALLY false. Both genders wish it were true, which is why they like to talk about it like it is, but that's just totally false.
Women want it just as much as men do, men find it just as important as women do, and we're all nervous as hell when we first start dealing with it! It's just a matter of the individual person's values regarding sex- no matter your gender. Anybody who thinks otherwise has clearly not spent enough time around a member of the opposite sex- or just hasn't bothered to pay attention to them.
So politically correct. So very wrong.
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Postby isobel on Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:25 pm

He's ANGRY because she's tried to jump his bones for the third time we've seen, at his place of work, in a public shower, with other people around, in spite of the fact he's told her no before. I'd think that a towering amount of disrespect would make anyone angry, especially over such an issue as bodily integrity.

You want to conduct yourself as a walking cock, O Recent Poster, fine. But the sweeping generalizations you make are really not going to make you look like a sensible person, or make your posts worth reading. I know many guys who would react with anger if someone disrespected them. Similarly, I know many girls who aren't the foo-foo-brained, sexually repressed, fragile little things you wrote us all off as. Your word is not law, as evidenced by the exceptions provided by people on this board alone. Some guys would hit it in the shower, some would be angry, some would say no, some would do something completely random I have not thought of. Some girls are sexually repressed, some like sex, some talk about it, some do not, some fall into other categories too numerous to list. I'm getting really fucking sick of people telling me there's no way I can have a sex drive and that any man not boning every girl he meets has to be homosexual/not a "realistic" guy. If you can't concieve of anything more complicated than that, whatever. But for christ's sake, please try not to shit all over the boards with it.

That...has been a long time coming. First and last blowup over the trollery, scout's honor. Sometimes you just kind of hit critical mass (Hey, are girls allowed to be angry and hostile, or do you need to be Rich for that kind of thing?)
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Postby ria on Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:04 am

All I have to say is this:

*claps*
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Postby Cameo on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:40 am

ria wrote:All I have to say is this:

*claps*

SECONDED!
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Postby DetrimentalDeity on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:54 am

Isobel, that was total pwnage. *Claps* Way to use logic. XD

Yes, because so many guys would be angry about this. Turn it down? Sure. I can see that. ANGRY? Call it a double standard, call it what you will, it's not a natural reaction. Period.

What you just said is not a double standard, its a generalization, stereotype, and insult. You really don't know everything. It is a perfectly natural reaction because its a reaction based on the indivdual. It may not be "typical" or "normal" from the standpoint of someone who bases other people off of generatheir own fallible, nonsensical impressions, and automatically discriminates against them when they do not conform to the definition of society's depiction for their kind. And, yes, so many guys would be angry about this, others wouldn't, and others just wouldn't care. Welcome to life, the real world, everyone's not the same; bet you weren't expecting that. :(

Also, natural =/= normal
Men ARE more physical than women, they DO have a higher sex-drive, that is natural, their minds work differently. Though, men AREN'T all horny bastards who jump at every booty they see, that's not natural, that's just what people see as "an acceptable reaction" or normal, by their double standards.

Almost period includes guys who have had very bad experiences. That's it. To put it simply, guys are not insulted when a girl wants to have sex with them. Guys are not angry when the girl is forward. Maybe its cultural. Maybe its only in America. Guys can turn it down. Guys can do a lot of things. The anger is odd, and the fact that he doesn't explain himself is odd. Why does he want to wait? If it was so simple, he could explain it.

Want to know what natural is? Natural is being angry with a person when they disrespect you. Natural is being angry when someone offers you something again and again when you've already said "No, not yet."

You don't know that, so don't go around shoving your opnions down other people's throats as fact. Marshall isn't insulted about Karen wanting to have sex, hell, he even said that he wanted to, but wasn't ready for it yet. He's insulted and angry by the faact that he said no, and she didn't listen to him. I'm sure that plenty of guys would be mad if their girlfriend just outright insulted them and their choices on important issues. If girls can get angry when a guy is forward then so can guys when a girl is forward, so take your double-standards elsewhere. You can't speak for every guy.

Also, NO means NO, no matter what the gender is. You shouldn't have to explain it, if you say NO then you mean NO, and if a person can't respect that much then its on them, but they still need to back off.
They wouldn't.

Wow, are you friends with them too? Seriously, grow up and get out of this little box that you live in. Telling her that they wouldn't just because you think that every guy should act in a certain way is plain inane, especially when you don't them. :-|

Guys and girls think of sex in very like manners.

Not really, men and women are different and they do think differently. Aside from the fact that their both human, they are quite different. However, that isn't to say that they can't view something from the same standpoint or have the same beliefs.

Women want it just as much as men do, men find it just as important as women do, and we're all nervous as hell when we first start dealing with it! It's just a matter of the individual person's values regarding sex- no matter your gender. Anybody who thinks otherwise has clearly not spent enough time around a member of the opposite sex- or just hasn't bothered to pay attention to them.
So politically correct. So very wrong.

No, she's right, you're the one who's wrong and lacks an explanation to back up your claim. A person's beliefs, experiences, and perspective does play a much larger role in the choices they make (along with the situation and cirsumstances).

You really do seem like the type of person who just doesn't pay attention to individuality. So I suppose, judging from your post, since I'm an African-American I should instantly listen to rap and hip-hop, aside from making choices based off of who I am; or that since I'm a female I should cry over every little thing - because we're emotional - love shopping, talking on the phone, be boy-crazy, hate any forms of physical labor, think that nerds and bugs are icky, like the color pink, and pretty much only date guys that are hot and popular, with no regards to who they are whatsoever. Or maybe, just maybe, I should play basketball because I'm so tall, even if I don't want to do so, or my brother should sag his pants and get a grill, just because everyone else is doing it. Let's not forget that all blondes are dumb, guys place more importance on sports than academics, guys shouldn't take ballet or wear pink, and all jocks are stupid. Better yet, all gay men are highly feminine, work in the fashion industry, jump every straight guy they see, talk in girly voices, wear tight clothes, and are weaker than their heterosexual counterparts. In addition, all Muslims and Arabs are terrorists, a woman can't be a pedophile or rapist, smart people wear thick-rimmed glasses and have no life, all goths wear black and are withdrawn emos, bisexual are selfish, they like everyone they meet, will have sex with anyone, everybody in high school has had sex and if they haven't they're either sexually repressed or just a complete and total loser, being a virgin is a sin against mankind, and everybody loves Raymond. Right? Because that's just how most people are and that's natural. :wink:
Last edited by DetrimentalDeity on Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Sebastian on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:59 am

isobel wrote:That...has been a long time coming. First and last blowup over the trollery, scout's honor. Sometimes you just kind of hit critical mass (Hey, are girls allowed to be angry and hostile, or do you need to be Rich for that kind of thing?)


Don't worry, you're just prone to emotional outbursts, because you are a girrrrrl. :D

Oh, and *CLAPS*.
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Postby Frances on Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:51 am

RisingPhoenix wrote:
Frances wrote:
RisingPhoenix wrote:arshall is... odd. There's something seriously wrong with him.
It occurs to me that many people I know would, if they were not ready for sex with someone, not be any *more* ready for it if they were pushed to do it within hearing range of casual acquaintances or strangers, many of whom were older than them.
Yes, because so many guys would be angry about this. Turn it down? Sure. I can see that. ANGRY? Call it a double standard, call it what you will, it's not a natural reaction. Period.
You're speaking in absolutes. At this point, I'm really need to going to trouble you for exactly what you think the natural reaction is, and why they could not get awkward or embarassed after they *did* turn it down and the girl kept pushing, and why the awkwardness or embarrassment could not be expressed by someone yelling.

He *does* start out by turning her down. He says he's fine and doesn't need her help; he's curt, but polite. And Karen keeps pushing, and her attempts to be seductive and mature shatters to make her look like a kid who doesn't know what she's doing, and he just looses his temper.

(Does Marshall even know everyone else has left?)

RisingPhoenix wrote:
Frances wrote:I really do feel there are exceptions to this. Then again, perhaps Marshall is the exception that results in you writing "almost period" rather than "period".

It *was* noted, during the cast weeks, that he has a great many feminine traits and that's part of what makes him so attractive.
Almost period includes guys who have had very bad experiences.
So maybe he *did*.

Maybe he got someone pregnant. Maybe he slept with a virgin last time and it went badly and he doesn't want to cause Karen physical pain. Maybe he's carrying an STD and is too embarrassed to bring it up, and the anger is a cover. Maybe he feels radically underequipped, and is upset that Karen found that out before he was willing to show her.

Or maybe he's one of that group that includes (but does not exclusively consist) of guys that had really bad experiences, and does more than react in a knee-jerk way to a naked girl showing up out of nowhere. Migod, an unusual person--perhaps even a thoughtful and deliberate one. Is that part of what you mean by "unnatural"?

RisingPhoenix wrote:The anger is odd, and the fact that he doesn't explain himself is odd. Why does he want to wait? If it was so simple, he could explain it.
Good god, we've had *four strips* with Marshall resisting Karen, and that's *if* you count the one where they open the door on Stan and Brandi and the one where the last panel is him surprised to see her in the shower. What do you want, to have the whole explanation for his behaviour vomited up in an expository lump, killing any tension, story development, and subtle characterization?

(Meantime, you're going to keep reading to see if he explains it, right? :) )

RisingPhoenix wrote:Karen would be acting odd if she was acting that way
(i.e., resisting Marshall)
RisingPhoenix wrote:for no reason she explained.
I'm sorry, I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying it's not odd at all for a seventeen-year-old girl to not want to have sex, as long as she explains it? And that the oddity lies in not explaining it, not wanting to wait?

RisingPhoenix wrote:
some poor soul whose attribution was snipped by Rising Poster wrote:They aren't unrealistic. They're shockingly real, actually. I've got a brother and mostly male friends, and I'm pretty damned sure they'd react the same way as Marshall is to Karen...
They wouldn't.
Actually, I realize the plural of anecdote is not data, but:

"Hey, John, hypothetical situation. You're about seventeen, you've been working at the gym, you're showering in the locker room. Your girlfirend walks in and wants to have sex with you for the first time there."
"Okay."
"What's your reaction?"
"I'm seventeen?"
"About, yeah."
"Woohooo!" (pause) "--oh, wait."
"Yes, there are other people in the locker room."
"...eugh." (expression which may roughly be read as "why am I dating a psycho?")

I take this as an indication that the whole "at work in front of strangers" thing can throw off even enthusiastic people when it comes to sex. Marshall has clearly indicated that he is not enthusiastic, for whatever reason. You seem to feel this is an absolute violation of the One True Way that guys behave. Others do not.

At this point, I suspect I am actually going to go with the information I can collect from people who I know are guys (as opposed to just people who I know are posting about guys) over yours, and thus will be favouring the "Marshall is rare, but still plausible" outlook as opposed to the "Migod! Something seriously wrong with him! No guy would do that!"

L&c,
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Postby Frances on Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:53 am

Cameo wrote:
ria wrote:All I have to say is this:
*claps*

SECONDED!

Thirded.

L&c,
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Postby atristain on Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:11 am

Ladies: Could we lower the estrogen and "macho bashing" levels a little? I'm a guy and felt offended by a lot of things said by guys, but this in not the place to write feminazi propaganda. I know you're angry by some comments but (surprise, surprise) you're not going to change any of those guys way of thinking. I like the way some of you expressed your points, but remember two things: "If you get angry, you lose twice" and "You can take a horse to the water, but you can't force it to drink" In the same way, you can't force nobody to think your way. If they want to listen, then it's Ok. I they don't want to, it's their problem. Feel free to express yourself, but respect other people way of thinking. If they're wrong, it will explode in their face when the time and ocassion is right.

Don't respond to anger with anger. Don't answer to violence with violence. It's "un-lady like". :wink: * ducks *

Seriously: all of us need to read, understand and learn from the words of people that wanted peace among humanity, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr.

Finally, if you let a (some) jerk(s) that use the internet to keep themselves annonimous and say whatever offensive thing they can to get the best of you, you make them win, since they intended to irritate you.
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Postby Tarlia on Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:08 am

atristain wrote:Ladies: Could we lower the estrogen and "macho bashing" levels a little? I'm a guy and felt offended by a lot of things said by guys, but this in not the place to write feminazi propaganda.


Excuse me? Where are you seeing this "bashing" and "FemiNazi" stuff? Are you reading a different thread from everyone else? I have seen nothing of the sort, in fact all I've seen is people reacting to the fact that guys in this thread keep generalising about other guys.

I know you're angry by some comments but (surprise, surprise) you're not going to change any of those guys way of thinking. I like the way some of you expressed your points, but remember two things: "If you get angry, you lose twice" and "You can take a horse to the water, but you can't force it to drink" In the same way, you can't force nobody to think your way. If they want to listen, then it's Ok. I they don't want to, it's their problem. Feel free to express yourself, but respect other people way of thinking. If they're wrong, it will explode in their face when the time and ocassion is right.


Why can't they reply to him? He put his opinions on display, he has to expect a response. They might not change their way of thinking, but if no one ever disagreed with anyone, we'd still have slavery and women wouldn't be able to vote or work.

Finally, if you let a (some) jerk(s) that use the internet to keep themselves annonimous and say whatever offensive thing they can to get the best of you, you make them win, since they intended to irritate you.


Personally I only bother to argue with people who actually mean what they say, and aren't just trolling. I think this guy might have meant what he was saying. Remains to be seen what - if anything - he'll say about all the opposition.


Personally I really, really, really wish people would stop putting so goddamn much importance on gender. Yes, there are overall tendencies, and differences - many of which are not biological, by the way. But that really says nothing about the individual. Absolutely nothing at all. No, not even that. You can say nothing about me from knowing the simple fact that I'm female.

That is why there is no such thing as a "normal" or "natural" or "male" way to react to Marshall's situation. Marshall reacted in a Marshall way. Why he reacted that way we don't know yet, but it's absolutely amazing how people can be so shocked that he didn't react in a way they "approve of". Oh no, he didn't react like a stereotypical guy! He's unrealistic and gay! Shout shout yell yell! Why not just wait and see what happens? Why is it so important that he's not like you expected?

By the way, I'm female and I love sex. I would gladly have sex every day if I could. Because it is fun and feels good. Only with my boyfriend who I love and trust, though, sorry. My favourite colour is blue, I hate makeup, not too fond of shopping, and I'm a computer programmer. Put that in your stereotypical pipe and smoke it.
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Postby StarKruzr on Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:49 am

taotu wrote:They aren't unrealistic. They're shockingly real, actually. I've got a brother and mostly male friends, and I'm pretty damned sure they'd react the same way as Marshall is to Karen...

I mean, good God, people, how clear is the double standard being presented here? If the situation was reversed, Karen could knock Marshall out with a chair and people wouldn't think anything of it. But Marshall is trying to sensitively but firmly turn her down- so he must be gay? He made it clear he wasn't interested in having sex with her yet, and that he would be in the future when he felt that he was ready. She isn't respecting this whatsoever. But of course, Marshall's a guy. He should be thinking with his other head, and not take offence at this clear disrespect for his values and feelings on the matter of sex, but rather just lay back and accept it.

...That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard!

Guys and girls think of sex in very like manners. Women want it just as much as men do, men find it just as important as women do, and we're all nervous as hell when we first start dealing with it! It's just a matter of the individual person's values regarding sex- no matter your gender. Anybody who thinks otherwise has clearly not spent enough time around a member of the opposite sex- or just hasn't bothered to pay attention to them.


Sorry. It's not absurd at all. Guys and girls DO NOT think of sex in very like manners. There are certain baselines - yes, we both want it - but the motivations often start from completely different places and how they experience it is often completely different. Need I point to orgasm as an obvious example why?

Yes, there is a double standard -- and the double standard makes sense. Sorry. None of this means I don't think women should vote, or be citizens, or be president (Barbara Boxer '08!!! ::sigh:: yeah right.).
~'Kruzr, CI

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