Ding, ding, ding went the trolley.....

[catpryde]

If he was female and Karen were female it would be seen as attempts at rape.

If he was female and Karen were female, this comic strip would have a much larger readership...

*cries* Male! If Karen was male! I fail at typing. ;_;

[Freemage]

I thought Karen looked delighted at whatever was going on in Marshall's lower end. I'd say he did have a hard on, he just isn't ready for sex yet.

Without re-launching the discussion on his sexuality (I honestly don't know, but I don't think gay can be ruled out at this point; there's quirks in his behavior that, to me, need to be addressed in some fashion), this proves nothing.

Quick owner's guide lesson for the ladies:

1: It has a mind of its own, and is capable of responding (or, just as perversely, NOT responding) to any situation in the worst possible fashion for that situation.

2: It can sneak up on you, acting almost independent of your current train of thought: "Hm... Wonder what the cafeteria is servi--oh, shit, I'm not gonna be able to get up when the bell rings."

3: Strong emotions will result in a massive hormone dump into your bloodstream; this will often result in an erection in times of stress, anger or embarassment--which may not be precisely the best reaction to having fallen into the lion's cage.

4: When someone is paying attention to it, it will often come to attention.

Note the person earlier in this thread who pointed out that the person in his high school who slept with the most girls turned out to be gay.

[oddtail]

3: Strong emotions will result in a massive hormone dump into your bloodstream; this will often result in an erection in times of stress, anger or embarassment--which may not be precisely the best reaction to having fallen into the lion's cage.

Incidentally, in some cases, strong emotions can result in a completely opposite reaction.

But other than that, what Freemage said.

[atristain]

hm...just out of curiosity, has anyone thought of how Karen will react of Marshall really is gay (unlikely)

The girls self-esteem is already pretty warped,
so imagine what that little revelation will do to her.

It'd be like a slap in the face, almost as if Marshall would be saying
"You were no good, so I'm switching sides".

Just a thought.[/i]

No, the real slap (and the one that would take her more to recover from) would be if Marshall started dating Helen or Tharqa, since she thinks looks are EVERYTHING, that would really hit her hard and high.

Remember Karen's way of thinking: "But I'm pretty! I thought that you were with me because I'm pretty!"

[betsynoire]

I don't think it necessarily means Marshall's gay. It does strike a sour note with me though. Marshall seems to pride himself on being somewhat intellectual, understanding, sensitive. This behavior doesn't fit in.

I think either he has deep issues with sexual contact, or he's being aloof and a bit snobby.

From what I can see, he's set himself up as a brick wall. Which is fine. You make your own choices in life, good for him. The problem I see is that he's letting Karen throw herself at it. If he really wants to be with Karen forever, he's going to have to learn how to really communicate with her. It would probably go a long way to talk with her, NOT as a reaction to an unwanted overture, and just lay everything out on the table. His decision, how he came to it, and really, really, emphasize that it has nothing to do with Karen, but it's not going to happen. At that point, they could compromise (although he doesn't seem very bendy on the subject), or he could basically give her an ultimatum. You'd at least have a chance on heading off the shower confrontation, or when it happens, you'd be perfectly positioned to just walk away.

I don't think Marshall really knows who Karen is yet. This does not seem out of character for her. For someone who I think sees himself as pretty perceptive - how did he not see this coming?

[ivy-chan]

I respectfully submit that Marshall doesn't see himself as perceptive when it comes to anything but, possibly, weights. You just have to read his POV flow through that strip: 'I like weights, they're honest and straightforawrd. They're simple'. It's girls and possibly other people he finds hard to figure out. He says he wishes he understood girls. He understands mechanics, like body language. And as for him being a 'brick wall'? When Karen was the one who said 'with a guy like this, the only way to keep him is at arm's length'? Please. It's kind of hard to tell who a person is when all they present you with is a cleverly-presented front.

He's already said 'I don't want to'. He expected Karen to understand a very simple 'no'. Not a high expectation. You can't get any more clear than 'no'. And he's being aloof and snobby here? Deep issues with sexual contact for not wanting to get hot and heavy in the public shower where he works? That reminds me an awful lot of people calling girls 'frigid' when they didn't respond to clumsy, crude overtures. If Karen wanted sex out of this relationship, and only sex, and Marshall wasn't comfortable with giving it to her, she had many options open. Marshall has every right to deny her sex.

I actually do hope this arc ends with Marshall not caving in, because I want to see some growth for Karen. It would be nice for her to realize that she can't ALWAYS get her way with her looks. I still like this relationship, and want it to last, but she needs to grow as a person even more than he needs to develop emotionally.

[Sassy-fras]

*notes a very minute hint of sarcasm*
Can a man be in love with a woman who isn't in love with him? Can a man be intuitive enough to sense this, but, be unable to pull away because of his love for her? Okay, maybe I'm reading a little bit more into the whole Karen and Marshall debate...but why not add another possibility to all the others we already have.

One thing's for certain...when we do find out what Marshall's deal is....peace will flutter upon the land again. I hope.

[courdorygrrl]

Okay. I've read everything all of you wrote and I am not going to heckle my disagreement. Instead, I'll say the following:

1) Whether straight or gay, Marshall IS interesting for the fact that he acts against type.

Ok, we agree here, I do think that Marshall is relatively interesting, although he has all the personality of cottage cheese. He does, in fact, act different than most guys his age (16 is, i believe, what T said)

2) If straight, then he is also interesting because there's more than just moral fibre here -- he's certainly acting with admirable restraint and care, but the sheer force of his rejection of her physical advances suggests that, as many of you noted, there must be some story to why he is so reactionary (not politically, just in terms of reflexes) about his no-sex-yet stance.

Apparently, he WAS aroused by her being so intimately close, and it made him uncomfortable, for whatever reason. I've read other posts and I can't come up with anything better than that. I'm simply not that interested in analyzing a comic character. I think we're going to be suprised. Personally, I think she's an idiotic pushy bitch who needs to be dropped on her ass. If I were him (or my fiance for that matter..because we've been through this in the past. I'm a lot more comfortable than he is sexually) I'd get out and leave her happy ass there. Just because he's not wanting sex doesn't make him abnormal, as stated before.

3) If gay, he is interesting because it's about time a character in this story fill out that segment of the population. I happen to believe he's gay, and if he is, I believe that the way that will be dealt with in the story will be in terms a lot more sensitive (albeit probably a lot less funny) than the ones I use. It will also be interesting to see how everyone reacts -- Karen, I suspect, will be a nightmare about it.

I think Sarah is going to take care of that personal choice for us. We haven't seen Marshall attributing homosexual tendencies to everyone he sees. If he is gay, will that bother me? No. And I agree with you that if Marshall comes out of the closet, Karen will freak. But, considering their age, I don't think he'd come out of the closet until quite a ways in the future. People may always suspect but he feels it isn't "right" to be gay. We honestly don't know.

4) For the umpteenth time, I'm not condemning him, straight or gay, for his position on sex with Karen. It's admirable. I'm not condemning him for the strength of his convictions. That's also admirable. I'm not saying that in order to be straight he'd have to be a dog. I do believe there are a lot of guys his age who are making the same choice faced with the same temptations -- I just have trouble believing that he's really tempted.

And this is where you and I disagree, because I don't have any trouble that Karen is tempting him...over and over and over. And it's driving him absolutely freaking crazy. I've been in Karen's shoes before, and I've been used by guys complete opposite of Marshall (Think Rich) and left the relationship unsatisfied because I was too pushy, just like Karen, and they hit it and left. Simple as that. Girls and guys really just don't think alike, and that's how double standards are set. Finally, I met my fiance, who is A LOT like Marshall (perhaps why I identify with the Karen and Marshall strips...) and I tried being pushy with him, and it just didn't work, because he is an honestly really nice guy who wasn't interested in doing anything until he was sure that we were on the same page and both serious about our relationship.
6 more days till our wedding. WOOT.

Now that's all I have to say except to ask, how hard is it to become a TRIPLE troll?

call troll back on me if you want, I think they're kinda cool lookin....

[Ollie_Vera]

Hah. All this arguing about how Marshall is TOTALLY/NOT GAY... watch it turn out to be something totally unexpected, like he hates homosexuals as much as Fred Phelps.

[snowp14]

I don't think Marshall really knows who Karen is yet.

I agree. In the "Weights" arc, he's confused about Karen's intentions and wants. Even the Cast page says so. And he thinks that Karen made herself over all by herself, while we know that isn't the case. Marshall wants a serious relationship (note the swans gift). Maybe he's afraid that Karen just wants to hit it and quit it? It's unusual for a guy to be worried about it, but hey, girls worry about it all the time... you never know.

[Freemage]

Oh, I can think of several possible reasons for the behavior I'm seeing beyond, "He's gay." Some of them even strike me as more likely.

What I'm saying is that Marshall's behavior, to this point, has elements in it that don't jibe with him simply being 'level-headed' on the subject of sex. There's things he says, does, and does not do that indicate a more deep-seated issue on his part.

My personal 'pet theory' is that he is not, in fact, a virgin at all--that his good looks led to an early relationship that was downright disastrous, because the girl in question wanted nothing more than his package, and used him to get it. In the words of South Park, she 'ripped out his heart and stomped on it with stilletto heels'.

It fits with just about every quirk I've noted in his behavior, and with his growing frustration at Karen.

[courdorygrrl]

Hah. All this arguing about how Marshall is TOTALLY/NOT GAY... watch it turn out to be something totally unexpected, like he hates homosexuals as much as Fred Phelps.

That's what I'm expecting..the unexpected. That's just how T and G roll.

[LeonardC]

Look, to any of you who think Marshall is gay because OBVIOUSLY no real heterosexual man would ever act like that...

Have you looked at this poll at all?? On THIS VERY FORUM, 68% of the boys say they WOULDN'T let Karen seduce them if they were in this situation. What's more, 34% of them say they'd act exactly as Marshall is acting, not even considering it. Are all of these men gay? Even Kinsey didn't think the proportion of gay men was that high. And to my knowledge, P&A is not like Madonna or the Village People, attracting a disproportionate number of gay fans.

Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible that there exist heterosexual men who have higher priorities than sex, and get offended when women disrespect those wishes? Maybe some of them read this comic, and even star in it? Why is this so bleeding hard to accept?

[CEOIII]

Why is this so bleeding hard to accept?

1. We're just kids.
2. My eyes are up here!

No normal, heterosexual teen male has ever said either such thing.

[CEOIII]

Why is this so bleeding hard to accept?

1. We're just kids.
2. My eyes are up here!

No normal, heterosexual teen male has ever said either such thing.

[LeonardC]

Why is this so bleeding hard to accept?

1. We're just kids.
2. My eyes are up here!

No normal, heterosexual teen male has ever said either such thing.

I don't buy a word of this either. #1: Marshall clearly tries to be an upstanding guy by whatever standards he can find, and the sex education at their school tells them "don't do it." It's entirely in character for a guy who's trying to be responsible. #2: This is the age of irony. Marshall and Karen both surely know that that is something women normally say to men staring at their breasts. That's what makes it funny - which, in turn, gives the statement more impact.

[Papuasblya]

Because I am about to change my mind. I'm looking at that "my eyes are up here" line again, the way my colleague Leonard does, and I get it. Regardless of his orientation, Marshall could be enjoying the irony of using the remark as a guy, and in that context it's a really clever line. Now, we haven't seen a lot of humor or irony from Marshall, in the past -- he's a sincere dude. If STAN or RICH or even DUANE -- all fairly clever with their tongues (Stan apparently more so than Duane, ask Brandi) -- had said it, the humor would have been even more appropriate. HOWEVER, maybe we are going to discover that Marshall's irony is like the cobra -- subtle, silent, and striking without warning.

Why is this so bleeding hard to accept?

1. We're just kids.
2. My eyes are up here!

No normal, heterosexual teen male has ever said either such thing.

I don't buy a word of this either. #1: Marshall clearly tries to be an upstanding guy by whatever standards he can find, and the sex education at their school tells them "don't do it." It's entirely in character for a guy who's trying to be responsible. #2: This is the age of irony. Marshall and Karen both surely know that that is something women normally say to men staring at their breasts. That's what makes it funny - which, in turn, gives the statement more impact.

[rjp]

[quote="CEOIII"]
[quote]My eyes are up here![/quote]

No straight guy on the planet has EVER said that. [b]EVER.[/b][/quote]

Wrong. I have said something very like that, in a similar situation, and I'm quite straight thank you very much. I did not say it to the woman who is now my wife. But I did once tell a woman to back the hell off because she was clearly looking for a cheap thrill, or some kind of "merit badge." And despite the fact that my body was more that ready to go (if you get my drift), my brain was saying WARNING WARNING BAIL OUT!

Contrary to popular belief, some men really do know when to think with their brains instead of their penis, and some of us can even override the biological reflex. It's well documented that women don't appreciate it when men view them as vaginas with bodies attached; believe it or not, some men have a similar reaction to women who view them as penesis with bodies attached.

We've seen what a "user" Karen can be. She throws people out of her life when she's finished using them, she's very hung up on how people percieve her, and she wants the reputation of a vixen. It could be that Marshal can see that, and wants to keep her at a certain distance. Her overly aggressive nature may also be freaking him out. He may have no dislike for her, but if he can tell she's trouble, then he may not want to get that close. Marshall just doesn't want to have sex with Karen for the simple reason that she doesn't interest him.

OK, I'll shut up now. That's all from this 40-year old husband and father.

[Yuko no Slayer-Dryad]

The "My eyes are up here!" thing was clearly a gender role reversal gag.

It's very clear that Marshall isn't your regular teenager. His behavior could just as easily be related to an abusive upbringing as not being ready to come out of the closet.

[atristain]

It's very clear that Marshall isn't your regular teenager. His behavior could just as easily be related to an abusive upbringing as not being ready to come out of the closet.

I thought he was currently more worried of making Karen to come out of the shower...

On a side note, they must have humongous water heaters for not running out of hot water, for the time T and Gis are keeping them inside of the shower. Please, hurry, before they come out all wrinkled..

[isobel]

The "My eyes are up here!" thing was clearly a gender role reversal gag.

It's very clear that Marshall isn't your regular teenager. His behavior could just as easily be related to an abusive upbringing as not being ready to come out of the closet.

Yesssss. Sorry to fawn over your post so, but I've been flogging the trauma theory too and it has as-yet been unheard. I'm not going to be heartbroken if he's gay, but I'd like to think this board is capable of seeing something beyond the shallowest, most immature possibility (No, I'm not taking shots at anyone. I just work on a website with a lot of kids and their first response to anything is "GAY." It has ruined me :'] )

Something this made me think of is that perhaps Rich and Marshall are siblings, and reacting to the same abuse in different ways. Rich went hyper-masculine, I-am-Johnny-Knoxville, adrenaline-junkie womanizing; and his brother Marshall went the stoic, kinda monastic, terribly-afraid-of-intimacy route. I'm not betting on this, but it would sort of be interesting, no?

[Freemage]

Actually, a couple of people have put forward the 'trauma' theory (possibly not in this thread), and I've advanced my own, even less-severe theory that he's just come off an awful relationship before Karen--one where the girl used-and-dumped him.

[DetrimentalDeity]

So let's go with what we have seen--which is significant both in what's there and what isn't. There's no passion, no really strong show of desire on his part. There IS a lot of emotional distance and insecurity. Does that necessarily add up to 'gay'? No. It DOES suggest, however, that he's carrying around as many 'issues' as Karen--he just does a better job of not displaying them for the world to see.

The hell you seeing this stuff, man? Seriously. Show me, quote me this emotional distance of Marshall's. 'Cuz as far I've seen...

Bam.

Kiss on the cheek, and I've danced closer with girls I had no interest in, and who had no interest in me.

Good for you, but that doesn't make it any less romantic, passionate, or sincere. Last I checked, you usually kiss someone you like as a way of showing affection and being intimate, whether its on the cheek, lips...or elsewhere. Though, I do love how the previous panels were overlooked. I mean who goes on dates and spends time together alone, anymore?

Also, had you paid more attention, you'd know that was their first date and that Marshall and Karen had just met. In the previous strip, she had just asked him out (to go running), so I'd assume that afterwards they decided to make it an all day thing. And kissing someone on the cheek when you've just met them and this is your first date with them, means that you're interested. Marshall is unsure of people's feelings, therefore he probably didn't want to dive straight into a relationship or go any further without getting to know her first.

Bam.

If they were standing, they could pass the classic "shine a light between them" test that used to be insisted upon by chaperones in a more genteel age. Look at the body language--he's facing the ceiling, she is facing him.

Doesn't make it any less romantic, he's spending some time with the girl he likes. Also, as we've seen, Marshall isn't ready for sex yet, so its quite normal for him to play it safe and avoid placing himself within temptation. His body language suggests "We're just talking, enjoying each others company, but this isn't going any further."

Bam.

You seem to have stopped reading this right after the grope. Note that even with that lead-in, he's simply not thinking on that level, at all, until Karen re-introduces it.

Yet he wasn't offended by the grope, nor did he get angry. I could see it as wierd had he said, "Don't touch me like that" or reacted in a similar manner, but he didn't. He didn't mind at all.

Bam.

Probably the most persuasive of the strips, for your argument, because of the off-camera lines (and I WISH we could have seen him, rather than Aggie, during that exchange). However, again, look at the body language in the background of frame 4. Is he leaning over, embracing her closely, maybe even murmuring something romantic in her ear? No. He's standing ramrod-stiff, hands on her hips, like they're about to waltz.

Really, I don't see the problem with that. That's just your perspective, because I don't see anything wrong with his position or anything questioning about it. So what if they're not passionately making out. He's holding her while she showers him with affection, and I don't think he's complaining either.

Bam.

Frankly, this left me unimpressed. Again, it's the sort of thing a good friend might do, as well. He admires Karen, supports her--but he doesn't say anything about how he feels about her. Oh, and by the way--a pedestal is just another form of distance.

That's just you then, because it further proves his point. Couples do support and defend one another, and his words does show how he feels about her, it shows that he obviously thinks highly of and respects her.

I don't know how you define "show of desire", but dating, kissing, hugging, bedside cuddling, groping (no, he didn't do the groping, but he wasn't complaining), giving gifts, defending her infront of a large crowd... All that checks out in my book. If you want roof top seranades, go look up Duane, 'cuz that's not how Marshall does it.

Nope. Again, it's not desire--looking at the strips you highlighted, all I really see is someone doing all the things he thinks someone in a relationship should do.

No, that's desire with control. He's making sure that doesn't put himself in a compromising situation. Everyone is different, you may not see Marshall writing poetry and showering girls with gifts, but also won't see Rich giving a rooftop serenade or wearing a suit. You do what suits you. Every guy is different, some guys enjoy snuggling in the backseat of a car, some spend ridiculous amounts of money to please her, some just like beauty and not brains, some guys use girls, whereas others may enjoy spending time with the girl he likes by doing activities they both love.

This is how Marshall acts because he's Marshall, just as Duane acts with Penny because he's Duane. He shouldn't be singled-out or have his feelings down-played when he's shown interested in someone.

1. We're just kids.
2. My eyes are up here!

No normal, heterosexual teen male has ever said either such thing.

Seriously? Amazing, I never met someone who knew every single straight, teenage male on the planet, let alone talks to them about their views, beliefs, and experiences on a regular bases. Tell me, what is normal? Because then I can tell you that no one is normal.

[CEOIII]

Tell me, what is normal? Because then I can tell you that no one is normal.

Marshall: You know what, Karen, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm being a little obtuse. There's a reason why I don't think we're ready to begin a sexual relationship and it's.........

Normal people don't say "we're just kids" and then magically assume the conversation ends right there.

[Ollie_Vera]

Bam.

Probably the most persuasive of the strips, for your argument, because of the off-camera lines (and I WISH we could have seen him, rather than Aggie, during that exchange). However, again, look at the body language in the background of frame 4. Is he leaning over, embracing her closely, maybe even murmuring something romantic in her ear? No. He's standing ramrod-stiff, hands on her hips, like they're about to waltz.

Really, I don't see the problem with that. That's just your perspective, because I don't see anything wrong with his position or anything questioning about it. So what if they're not passionately making out. He's holding her while she showers him with affection, and I don't think he's complaining either.

Not only that, but it could have just been how Gisele drew it, not being entirely intentional in the way Freemage mentioned. Although Gisele is a much better artist than I am, I still know that to draw that pose from that view can be a little tricky to do without a direct reference to view.