Firearms thread, from Heather story arc

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Postby EdSaari on Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:57 am

I don't have a great deal of out-of-the-darkroom time available today, so, a couple of quick comments-

I am not trying to demean Japan's culture - or anyone elses. I only tried to bring atention to one instance where the connection between suicide and frearms ownership was non existant, or at least, very tenuous. Suicide is a terrble thing, but let's not knee-jerk assume, or blindly assimilate, the rantings of any emotianally-laden group of either side.
Everyone is entitled - has the RIGHT - to be for or against firearms, or anything else. I can only hope that people will think - try to base their stand - on rational judgement.

I had a candidate for State Representative knock on my door .. "stumping" among the common people ... something I heartily approve of. I hit him with a loaded question (testing his attitude towards the complicated mess we call Massachusetts Firearm Laws), "Do you believe in changing the Mass. Law, so that handgun purchases are limited to one a month? (A "hot topic" in the local press). He kind of blinked - not knowing which side I was on... "Why, yes ... that sounds only reasonable, to me." I said, "Then you are in favor or relaxing the law - as it now stands we are limited to four a year."

Hopefully, a quick example of the legal "mish-mash" here ... There are two "classes" of License to Carry ... Class "A" (High Capacity Magazine), and Class "B" (Low Capacity - I assume ... It is not stated as it is in Class "A"). To transport a firearm with a Class "A" license, It must be IN the vehicle, "Under the Direct Control of the License holder." With Class "B" it CANNOT be "In the passenger area - it MUST be locked in the trunk, away from immediate access."
I asked my son-in-law, a working Police Firearms Instructor ... "What if there are both Class "A", and Class "B" licensees on their way to an accredited Range? Where do the Firearms go for transport? His answer... "I don't have a clue - no one has figured that out yet.

One staistic the Anti-Gun side does NOT want to be known is the "Incidence of Crimes Committed with LEGALLY-Owned Firearms.. or by LEGALLY Licensed Firearms Owners."
One official of the Department of Justice remarked, "From these statitics, I've though of a way to really reduce crime - Issue everyone a Firearms License ... If the statistics hold true, we will come close to eliminating all crime."
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Postby luchog on Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:54 am

azalea2 wrote:My only objection was to heretofore total overlooking of suicide in this gun discussion.


It wasn't overlooked, simply ignored because it was irrelevant to the discussion at hand -- except as an example of manipulation of statistics by the anti-gun lobby to support assertions which have no real factual basis.
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Postby kinako mochi on Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:01 pm

EdSaari wrote:I am not trying to demean Japan's culture - or anyone elses. I only tried to bring atention to one instance where the connection between suicide and frearms ownership was non existant, or at least, very tenuous.


It wasn't my intention to personally attack you in the slightest, Ed. But I figured stating my position from a JA perspective can shed some light on a lot of dark regarding foreign culture, specifically the one I was brought up with on a cusp with American culture, and the divisions between the two. Too often very important decisions are made and minds made up by people who judge based on anecdotal, easy-bake knowledge. To not speak up would be my failure in this regard. :)

I am intrigued with the direction of this thread. Even the bra thread had more flaming than this one. Right on, Pubbers. :D
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Gunshows

Postby Webleys on Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:16 am

Here in Minneapolis you can find a gunshow of some sort within an hours drive on most weekends. Most of them are small, local Armory sort of affairs with one big one by the Minnesota Weapons Collectors about once a month or so.

As for private sales, Minnesota has no prohibition on them, other than no kids and nobody that you have reason to believe is not legal to own them or will use them for illegal purposes. Also, we have no quasi registration schemes like IL, MA, NY or MI.

We've also got "shall issue" carry. New permits are on hold for a court case at the moment, but the permits of those of us who already have permits are still valid until the court clears up the idiot ruling of a St. Paul judge who claimed that it was passed unconstitutionally. We should be back to issuing permits in a month or so. Meanwhile, the local police chiefs can issue under the old law, which means that the twin cities metro area doesn't issue and most of the rest of the state does, which is why we changed the law in the first place.

The recent "not on your life, Spanky" strips got passed around the local carry community pretty quickly.

Nice work!

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Postby EdSaari on Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:38 am

kinako mochi wrote:It wasn't my intention to personally attack you in the slightest, Ed.


I didn't take it that way, either. I was just trying to define my position more clearly.

Too often very important decisions are made and minds made up by people who judge based on anecdotal, easy-bake knowledge. To not speak up would be my failure in this regard. :)


That says it all, Kinako. Me too!

I am intrigued with the direction of this thread. Even the bra thread had more flaming than this one. Right on, Pubbers. :D


Hear! Hear!!! At first I was about to write, "Strange, isn't it. The most thoughtful, mature discussion anywhere ... in a `comic strip' venue" ... but I think Pablo deserves a great deal of the credit. Wapsi Square is probably the most thoughtful, intelligent, mature literature I've read in a long time. It makes sense.
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Postby NR Pax on Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:49 am

First off, a side note appropriate of nothing...

EdSaari wrote:I was in a Combat Engineer Battalion, with a MOS of "Combat Demoliton Specialist" (before Squad Leader).


Nice to meet another Marine on this board. Just finished my 6 years last April with a Combat Engineering Unit out in MD.

Speaking of Maryland, the laws here on posession are...odd. You have to supply three character references (And they have to be notarized), fork over $234 to various agencies (The State Police get $117 of that), and two seperate fingerprint cards. Add to that the joy that you have to renew the permit every two years. I am really hoping that we can eventually get to the point that we are a "shall issue" state.
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Postby luchog on Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:07 am

NR Pax wrote:Nice to meet another Marine on this board. Just finished my 6 years last April with a Combat Engineering Unit out in MD.


*wondering if I should try and remember all the old jarhead jokes I learned in the Army*

Speaking of Maryland, the laws here on posession are...odd. You have to supply three character references (And they have to be notarized), fork over $234 to various agencies (The State Police get $117 of that), and two seperate fingerprint cards. Add to that the joy that you have to renew the permit every two years. I am really hoping that we can eventually get to the point that we are a "shall issue" state.


Wow, that truly sucks.

As weird as my state can be at times, I'm really happy about the fact that it is a shall-issue. Seattle itself is a little island of strangeness, and the cops will try to give you a whole lot of BS about carrying if you don't look and act like a hardcore mainstream yuppy; but overall there are few problems with concealed carry in Washington.
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Postby kinako mochi on Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:34 am

Cool, Lunchog. I'm thinking of moving to Poulsbo early next year, if things pan out financially. :)

A comment on my experience with Marines.

Most of the Marines I've met as a soldier have the rhetoric, but often times are really cool when they feel they can drop their guard with you. They are held to much higher physical and combat training standards than I was in the Army, and that in itself makes for a force that needs more discipline and strict regulation than one that has more lax requirements. That discipine tends to make socialization outside other fellow Marines a bit strained typically, but of course it varies from person to person. The bravado, the bonding, the extrovertedness and taste for extreme stimulation is all due to having the confidence (and to some, extended to arrogance) that being in top shape, surmounting very difficult physical and mental challenges, and the prestige of acceptance by the Marine Corps gives a person. Those that are wise enough to stay true to the creed, bearing and honor of that title will succeed in life and transition easily into society. Those who cannot, will earn the stereotypes and rancor of those that judge them on action. :)

I'm sure to ex-mil this is all sort of duh-worthy, but to those who aren't, I feel this may help a bit in understanding what we old salty dogs are talking about when we reminisce or dovetail our experience into the forum. :D
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Postby NR Pax on Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:33 pm

I believe that a military thread is in order at this point then. I'll take care of that.

*wondering if I should try and remember all the old jarhead jokes I learned in the Army*


Go ahead. We know that the Army is a running joke anyway. 8)
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Postby luchog on Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:05 am

kinako mochi wrote:Cool, Lunchog. I'm thinking of moving to Poulsbo early next year, if things pan out financially. :)


It's a nice place if you like quiet most of the year, and can put up with hordes of tourists in the summer. Easy hop to Seattle by boat; and lots of beautiful country.

That discipine tends to make socialization outside other fellow Marines a bit strained typically, but of course it varies from person to person. The bravado, the bonding, the extrovertedness and taste for extreme stimulation is all due to having the confidence (and to some, extended to arrogance) that being in top shape, surmounting very difficult physical and mental challenges, and the prestige of acceptance by the Marine Corps gives a person. Those that are wise enough to stay true to the creed, bearing and honor of that title will succeed in life and transition easily into society. Those who cannot, will earn the stereotypes and rancor of those that judge them on action. :)


I've found (having spent a large chunk of my training at Ft. Sill, which is split evenly between Army and Marines) that, more often than not, they tend to be more arrogant than confident, and depend too much on the Corps image for their identity. Youth and inexperience mostly precludes the confidence that comes with experience; but unlike the other services, the Corps really pushes the Image; which tends to result in arrogance and insularity; as well as a tendency to so more of their thinking with their fists than with their brains. The training, typical of the military, but especially so for the Marines, tends to reinforce a certain narrow-mindedness and blind acceptance of authority. Not universal, but common enough to support the stereotype.

Some grow out of it with experience, some don't.
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Postby kinako mochi on Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:18 pm

Lunchog, that's my gut impression of many Marines I've met, but since I'd been fortunate enough to know a few that were really cool and level-headed guys (I suppose a few years in that community would tend to weed out the knuckleheads), I really can't say with any fairness that I feel all Marines, or even most Marines, adhere to that stereotype. But of the ones that did, your post was pretty much center-mass. :)

My experience was on Ft. Myer, home to the Color Guard units, and the post neighboring Arlington Nat'l Cemetary. Since the post was tri-service, I got meet and hang out with quite a few Marines, since their commissary and little mini-mall right off-post was within walking distance. Being in units echelons above Corps though, tends to collect military with a more civilian-type, garrison demeanor, meaning the bravado and meatheadedness of field units is very much subdued since 0-6s get coffee for the people you run into every day. I used to walk to the Pentagon for work every morning. Hell, I drove past and saluted then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Colin Powell more than a few times at Myer. :)

I worked at the now-defunct United States Army Intelligence and Threat Analysis Center at the Washington Navy Yard from '92 - '94. It was a GREAT assignment, with tons to do, plus I had my sportbike to take advantage of the awesome country roads in NoVA and WsMD. I loved DC. :)
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