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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:13 am
by Ryalyn
Hands Lugnut a monster-sized bag of chocolate chocolate chip cookies and a gallon of milk

You poor girl. That really stinks. I don't really know what to tell you about the whole talk/not talk with the fellow thing. I mean, you could try, but it might just be strained and awkward. But then again, it might get beyond that and he'll get over whatever he needs to get over and see the Lugnut that we all know and love. :)

And I'm sorry, but your mom sounds like she needs to grow up a little.

Anyway, sorry to hear that you've joined the ranks of the Valentineless. Maybe we should start a club. Make pins or something.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:48 am
by ajax
Ah, Lugnut, that really is pretty rotten. I feel for you. It's just awful when something like that comes from out of the blue. And when your heart/ego has taken a bashing, interacting with someone who's not sensitive to that really sucks.

Consuming Ryalyn's proffered mass quantities of chocolate and milk is better, on balance, than the "bender." A good cry is sometimes helpful too.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:59 am
by Fhqwhgads
Ryalyn wrote:And I'm sorry, but your mom sounds like she needs to grow up a little.

Lugnut, how are your finances? Are they stable enough to land a deposit & 1st month's rent on your own place? You wouldn't believe how much better I felt after I got out from under the 'rents. (Well my Mom actually, my Dad had split several years prior by that time) Not to knock my Mom, I love her to pieces, I actually left the mighty & fabled Twin Towns to come out here to Vanillaville and help take care of her, BUT - living under the same roof would definitely give me, at best, a rampant case of the ol' eye twitch. If you know what I'm saying. :-?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:25 am
by DinkyInky
You don't need that kind of "friend". Ditch her, and fast. "Fair-weather friends" are the worst creatures in existance.

You could try if you think it is worth a shot, but personally, I think it was pretty shitty of him to dump ya before V-day. As far as the mom situation, if she is always like that to you, I agree, move away from mom...I didn't talk to my mother for nearly four years, and my father for a decade. It hurt, but it was good for me, and my life is better for it.

Oh. Hell. no. The first time I see bruises are the first time I open my big fat mouth, and loudly. If they don't like what I say, too bad, at least they know someone cared enough to talk to them about it.

Now my turn to unload...sorry in advance for the novel:

I have a small issue(you may or may not think it is big). I need to know how to unstress from this issue.

You prolly saw my post about my son being a preemie(born five weeks early, and weighing 5 lbs 11 oz), I contribute it to several things. One being (I consider them ex)friends that smoked around me even though I told them not to and politely asked them to leave(which they ignored). Now one of them was my best friend(was going through a nasty divorce) and the other was a friend of mine that was in the military(served a tour in the desert and is now out)...both of them were rather sad and whined to me about their miserable luck at relationships. I nudged them to talk to each other and to my delight, they hooked up. This was mid-June.

I find out at the end of June I am 13 weeks pregnant, and anemic and hypoglycemic and have to be very careful. I quit smoking, drinking soda, and eating sugary junk, and start doing a strict dietary regimen, and do my best to avoid stress. I tel;l them I cannot be around smoke, which they ignore. I began hiding in my room to avoid the smoke(which came into my room anyway). A few days later my former best friend had a jealous fit(mind you, I was several months pregnant at the time) and began calling my house at the wee hours of the morning telling him to stay away from me...WTH???? He was visiting my brother[who has epilepsy and doesn't need the drama].

SHe also tells all sorts of crap to my very good male friend(who isn't sure what to believe atm, so I am giving him some space to breathe so he knows it isn't me causing the grief). They both begin to order me to not talk to said male friend, and I tell them to F--- off.

My sweetie hated renting, so he talked to my mother and worked out a deal to buy my childhood home. During the move, these two former friends started catfights with me and smoked all the time while my sweetie was at work. I told him this, and he told them to quit. I told him I wanted nothing to do with them, and I thought that was that.

I hear from my brother that they are moving in with a mutual friend, and think, "how nice".

Fast forward to Thanksgiving, and we have trouble with the move, so I call in every single favour I have and get MY friends and family, and my sweeties family to help move us, and help us financially. Note that these two never offered to help us, and she continues to call me all the time and screams at me to stay the hell away from her guy.

Fast forward to Christmas...I learn that these two morons are movign in with us. I say "Oh, HELL NO!" I also learn that we can't afford to live there without tenants. I lay ground rules for the move, which they bitch and moan about. They give me a Christmas present(A onesie that says"who's the daddy?" and wondered why I got pissed. Day after Christmas, while I was sleeping, he comes over and chain smokes cigars and looks at porn on my sweeeties PC.
My one(of two) good female friend comes to get me on her b-day two days later to unstress me. Unfortunately, it was a bit late, and that night I go into start-stop labour. My midwife gives me strict instructions for absolute peace and quiet, so my sweetie takes me to the new place. He leaves to goto the hardware store and get supplies. THey make ungodly amounts of noise, and smoke those damned cigars and menthol cigs, and on the 30th, I dilated rather fast and had to be rushed to the hospital to have my son(I had planned for a midwife assisted homebirth). They start destroying my personal belongings while in the guise of "helping" finish the move.

Fast forward to current. They keep smoking in the house and in front of my son(so to avoid that I hide in my room), everytime my sweetie goes off to work. I can't keep telling my sweetie about it because he has now developed ulcers and has panic attacks. I'm not sure what to do. Oh, and get this, they only pay $300 a month combined, and contribute NOTHING to the utilities, and rarely clean up after themselves.

Sorry for the novel. Any advice on de-stressing me would be greatly appreciated.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:12 am
by Ryalyn
Is there any way that you can get them out of the house and get different tenents? They might get mad, but I don't see how it could be much worse than things are now. They might try to wreck your stuff, but if they do, call the police on them. :) And then get a restraining order so they can't come back and can't keep calling you.

Okay, so maybe I'm not all that much help, but I feel so sorry for you!! Life is hard enough with a newborn (so I hear) without having to deal with all the worries of having a premie and all the crap from nasty tenents. It's your house and you and your sweetie should be able to live in it like you want without him having ulcers and you suffering through their smoking. If they won't listen to you, get them out.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:21 am
by Fhqwhgads
Hm. Did you ask them to leave and they refused? If not, that *may* be a good place to start (obviously I'm not totally in the loop of every detail of the relationship). If you already asked and they refused...

Have they signed a rental agreement or lease? If so then they're bound by the terms of the agreement and the laws of your particular state, and if you have laid out the terms on paper and they've signed it, then you will almost certainly win in court. If not... well, here's what Nolo Press has to say:

A landlord or property manager cannot legally evict a tenant -- physically remove the tenant and his possessions from his rented home or apartment -- until the landlord has gone to court and proved that the tenant did something wrong that justifies ending the tenancy. In turn, a landlord can't proceed with an eviction lawsuit without legally terminating the tenancy first.

So maybe, if you can prove that they're knowingly & wantonly causing a health risk...? I dunno. Check out the Property & Money section at that site, they sell books & stuff but the articles are all free (or were last time I spent any time out there). Oh yeah, and I Am Not A Lawyer, All Restrictions Apply, Your Mileage May Vary, etc etc etc. But Good Luck. :wink:

EDIT: I just re-read your post and realized I wasn't much help in the "de-stressifying" part of that. Sorry. :-?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:20 am
by crypto
DinkyInky wrote:Crypto,
You don't need that kind of "friend". Ditch her, and fast. "Fair-weather friends" are the worst creatures in existance.

Dinky, fucking bite me.

I don't consider her a fair weather friend. Right now she needs what support her firneds can offer, and i think her mother has seen that.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:28 pm
by pablo
crypto wrote:Dinky, fucking bite me.

I know you're going through a tough time right now, but please refrain from lashing out at people that offer advice when asked to do so. You may not agree with there response, but remember, we all only know about the individual in question from how you've described her, and we're going to insert out own personal experiences into the mix.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:26 pm
by crypto
Sorry pab, sorry Dinky.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:04 pm
by Lugnut
First of all, Dinky, where do you live? Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone here!

Second, this doesn't sound like a landlord/tenant situation. This sounds like a roommate situation. Their name isn't on the mortgage, is it? Refuse their 'rent contribution' or whatever you'd call it, and tell them they have to leave. They're creating a health risk for you and your son. If they refuse, call the police. It's not worth risking your son's health. Meanwhile, look into advertising for a room to rent. Specify in the ad that it's a strict non-smoking environment. And since you want quiet, consider looking for a student. I know that sounds counter-productive, but there are some of us out there (myself included) who prefer a quiet environment...more conducive to studying. It's worth a try, at least!

And as far as the de-stressing, try finding some bath oil/body lotion/aromatherapy diffuser oil that has a high lavender content. That's always helped me. I also have a few 'worry stones' that I keep handy. It's not the kind that you get in the stores that already have the divot in them...I pick them up when I'm at lake Michigan. They're just smooth, dark stones that feel good in my hand, and I sit and play with one or two of them while I'm thinking. It helps me. Black Market Minerals is a place to look if you want to buy a funky looking one...or if you want one like mine, I can always send you one! Lastly, get a journal. Even if you write "SCREW THE FRICKING WORLD" or something worse in it, it helps. It gives you 'a bucket to pour your piss in'.

And either way, good luck :)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:17 pm
by Fhqwhgads
*bellies up and orders a glass of escapism*

Okay, my turn I'm afraid.

This story starts a number of months back, probably longer for the primary players. Said players consist of a couple, friends of ours, married, we'll call them Joel & Clementine. We used to hang out some years ago, all worked at the same place, etc. Haven't hung out so much all together for probably more than a year now. We got to see Clementine not infrequently of late since she's been partnering with us in a business endeavor since August or so. (Joel is technically on the paperwork for this business but for all practical purposes is inactive, mostly because he's got a business of his own that he's engaged in and is supposedly bringing in the lion's share of the $$. I'm not sure whether that piece is relevant or not.) Anyway. Clementine has confided to my wife that Joel has done some really unpleasant things like "forget" to pay the bills for months at a time; not pay, or indeed file, last year's and prior taxes, etc. I'm told the van was repo'd. Questions about parenting technique (no abuse that I am aware of however). There is also some question of where the money from his business is going if the bills aren't getting paid but there's never any extra around. He doesn't want to have sex with her 'cause he sez she's too fat. He doesn't trust her and has accused her of adultery. She apparently caught him installing a keylogger on her computer. Lots of other happy funtime goodness.

So the ladies have been commiserating about her situation. Joel & I haven't been hanging out, just been busy with other things and stuff. Moreover, I have been trying to stay as far out of earshot as possible when they're talking their girl-talk about marriage issues. Now, y'all already know I'm a big ol Jesus freak (actually we're all four of us at least nominally Calvary Chapel folks (for what that's worth) but go to different fellowships in our town). I think it is very very ill-advised for married males to be counseling married females on marital issues. Personal opinion there. I also feel that I do not have the authority, or indeed the training or experience, to be a "real" counselor (having opinions, although I got lots, does not necessarily make me a fit mentor). And they've been going to a real counselor who has (according to Clementine) been drawing even more startling & unhappy revelations out of Joel. (The counselor-->Clementine-->w1fx0r-->me = 4th hand info so I'm not even going to bother to write this bit down.) The farthest I've gone is to note that God appears to take a dim view of divorce if the Scriptures are to be believed. (She blew me off. Okay. *shrug*)

Now. Clementine decides she needs to make a run for it. (They have three kids; one is hers from an earlier marriage and the older two are his, also from an earlier marriage. They have none from their union.) I just remembered: I should point out that her parents, who spent some time with them over the summer, agreed with her assessment of the situation and helped fund her... eh, "escape" I guess. In fact, as I write this, my wife just told me that it was actually their idea in the first place. Hm. Ah, and she also just told me that it seems he was supposed to be on medication of some kind (name not mentioned, only that it was for depression, "one of those P ones").

So the w1fx0r and some other mutual friends get together and show up at her house on the big day to help her pack up fast & get out. This was last week sometime. But Joel comes home in the middle of it. He doesn't freak out, he appears pleasant, just... hangs around and watches.

I get an Email a couple of days ago. It read:

From: fake @ [mailto: fake @]
Sent: Saturday, 12 February, 2005 13:38
To: me @ my business
Subject: Thanks,

Hey, This is [Joel], I want to thank [your wife] for coming over to help [Clementine] move out to go be with her new lover in Oregon, That was really nice and thoughtful.

his addy @

Hm, I said to myself. Lover in Oregon. This is new. I filed it and left it pending further details.

Tonight, about an hour ago, he calls our house line. He wants to know what the hell my w1fx0r thought, stabbing him in the back like that and nobody telling him what was going on. I refrained from comment except to point out that I really wasn't involved and that there are generally two sides to every story. (FWIW, I got complimented on my restraint during the conversation. Which is a big deal cause going off on somebody is generally not a problem for me. 8) ) Unfortunately he got personal, among other things wanting to know why *I* had stabbed him in the back by "sticking my head in the sand" as he put it. I just hung up.

Now, the question is: Should I be worried about this? Is he like going to go postal and show up here or something? Fer crying out loud, their house is maybe 2 blocks away. It's not like he doesn't know where to find us.

And worse: Was he right? Should I have involved myself? Tried to stop her leaving even? I don't think so (even though I think divorce is *usually* the wrong answer), they were already seeing a counselor, but still. I dunno.


*drains glass, heads off to the restroom*

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:18 pm
by azalea2
Let me see if I've got this straight:
- These people are more business associates than personal friends, though they were personal friend in the past.
- Both Joel and Clementine have had prior marriages.
- Joel and Clementine were in couples counseling together.
- Your wife has been talking to / helping Clementine, but you have kept your nose out of their personal lives.
- You think that Joel may be unstable to some degree. One possible indication of this is that he is not taking antidepressants that he was recommended to be on. (I'm hoping that this recommendation came from a psychiatrist.)

An aside note; you mentioned "I think it is very very ill-advised for married males to be counseling married females on marital issues. Personal opinion there." I will say that people seem to be closest to whomever they are spilling their hearts out to. If a married female refuses to talk to her husband but instead talks about all her marital problems with another man... I take that as a warning flag for the marriage.

(*ow. my head hurts from reviewing the story.*)

Should you be worried about him? My immediate question here is, is he seeing a counselor? I would say that he does need someone to talk to to figure this out. Please note that it does not need to be you; it is better for him to talk to someone professionally trained, or at least someone further removed from the situation. If I were you, I would recommend that he continue individual counseling with the couples counselor that they were going to.

Should you have involved yourself? I say that it's a good idea to not get *overly* involved in other peoples business. (The line between just enough and too much is hard to figure out.) They were seeing a couples counselor, so in theory he should have known that their marriage wasn't going perfectly. Also, since you knew they were seeing a counselor, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they were using counseling to try to save the marriage. You could have told him that his wife seemed very unhappy (since she did talk to your wife about it), but he should have already known that. I don't think that you should have tried to talk his wife into staying; they were already working in counseling, and since each of them had previous marriages... well, they both see divorce as a reasonable option.

The "pack up fast and move out" sounds odd; I can't say more because I'm only getting bits of the story. I would have hoped that they would have been able to use the counselor to plan out a separation, instead of having it happen abruptly. That does have to be a shock to him, even if she felt it was justified (fearing for her safety or her life?).

All I can say is, I don't think you did anything wrong.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:51 pm
by azalea2
Oh, gosh, I'm so slow. I was trying to figure out why, if she moved out a while ago, he broke into pieces tonight... but of course it's V-day. It's hit him like a ton of bricks that this woman, whom he was hoping to spend the rest of his life happily with, has up and left him. No wonder he's a mess. (Sure, their relationship was a mess, but he's glossing over that at the moment. Right now, he's just thinking that his second chance at a good life has vanished.)

If you're comfortable lending him an ear, do so. But if not, don't worry about it. You don't want the situation between Joel and Clementine to affect the relationship between you and your wife.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:36 am
by Ryalyn
I don't have a lot of experience with mental stuff, but he sounds bipolar to me. I really hope that he's smart enough to get that under control if he is.

I think you did pretty much what I would have done in your situation, Fhqwh. That being said, I have no idea what you should do next. I wouldn't get too worried just yet, but I'd keep an eye out for the guy. And pray, naturally, although I'm sure you've been.

Good luck. (I'm not much help, am I?)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:13 am
by Fhqwhgads
Yes. Well they are (were?) our friends; more friends than business partners I would say. I'm pretty sure he's not telling the truth about her seeing somebody else, since it was her parents' idea (and $$ for that matter) that got her started out of there. The speed with which it happened startled me as well; particularly given the speed (or lack thereof) with which she's moved on other things in the past. I doubt (although I have no way of knowing) he is still in counseling. Fear-mongering paranoiac that I am, what keeps going through my head is visions of him parked down the street in his truck with a rifle waiting for my wife. (Or me I spoze. Me, I'm not worried about so much.) KnowwhatImean, Vern?

Yeah, happy V-Day indeed. :o

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:49 am
by ajax
Sounds to me like you are maintaining an appropriate distance from what is evidently a bad situation. They are both adults (even if they don't always act like it) and you can't predict or alter their behavior. Your religious beliefs may admonish you to look out for their souls (part of being your brother's keeper) and counsel them on unChristian behavior, but that is action that not many of us feel very comfortable with (not that that's an excuse). At the very least, pray for them, and do what you can for reconciliation, but don't be dragged down by their behavior, particularly when you don't know (can't know) all the facts and conditions. It may be that there is some mental or psychological instability at work here, and then all rational bets are off.

BTW, what is "w1xf0r" or whatever? Code?


PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:21 am
by azalea2
Yeah, I can understand your fear. Truth be told, he's unlikely to pull out a shotgun and do something foolish; the scary news stories are the exception rather than the rule. Not saying that keeping a bit of an eye on him is a bad idea, though...

The first thing that popped into my mind at the "missing money" statement was drug use by Joel. That would also be a convenient explanation for his paranoia and erratic behaviour. If this is the case, he's the one that has to drag his ass over to NA (or wherever) to get help. Even if not, well... he's still the person primarily responsible for his own mental well-being.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:51 am
by Fhqwhgads
azalea2 wrote:The first thing that popped into my mind at the "missing money" statement was drug use by Joel.

Ha, that's funny, I used to *BE* a huge pothead and that didn't even occur to me; I was thinking more along the lines of strip bars/hookers/whatever. Ah, who knows? And does it even matter. Like you say, he's still the person primarily responsible for his own mental well-being. Part of me's still guilt-tripping though. Just have to get over it I s'pose.

ajax wrote:BTW, what is "w1xf0r" or whatever? Code?

Oh, "wife". Just being stoopid. What, am I not "leet"? :lol:

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:38 am
by azalea2
|-|3|-|. J0O 4r3 08\/10U5ly |\|07 700 l337. :wink:

(Ow. I think I sprained my eyes typing that.)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:53 pm
by Fhqwhgads
....I... think I'ma take that as a compliment. So thank you. :D

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:01 pm
by Lugnut
l33tspeak gives me a headache! ;)

I second the drug use comment though. The whole situation rang too many bells for me not to think of it.

I second ajax's comment though. You're maintaining an appropriate distance. Trust me, you've helped someone excape a bad situation. Goodness knows what could have happened had she stayed.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:50 pm
by Madhatter45
Hey gang. :lights a black and mild: I'm new here (obviously) and found that this is a pretty friendly community where I can share my problems. I know for this particular one you guys are going to say Leave/ignore, but I know that. My question is how? A friend of mine recently has been coming onto me. The past few times shes been over we've kissed and such, but it feels like she's using me. I read her livejournal and such (those things are great to complain in, anyhoo) and she talks about liking this other guy and such. Well this hurt me pretty bad emotionaly and I know I should stay away from her. The problem is she attends my church and I see her every single sunday, she also constantly flirts with me. I'm not sure what to do anymore and i don't wish to stop going to my church. Any suggestions?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:30 am
by EdSaari
Joel / Clementine:

This situation has more red flags waving than I can count.

I strongly suspect that there is *much more* happening below the surface than what was mentioned here.

Two MAJOR indicators of REAL trouble: The unexplained disappearance of money ... I can think of three possibilites - support of substance abuse; keeping a mistress "on the side"; and a gambling addiction.
The other, even more significant: Joel refuses to have sex with Clementine (too fat), and yet, he is convinced that she is being unfaithful - (other men do not share his aversion to her weight). That, in itself indicates a badly tangled emotional mess.

There is enough potential of disaster to justify an emergency flight. Joel surprises all in the middle of this and shows no emotion. Later he dumps on you - hard..?

That situation is volatile enough to warrant prefessional help. I would suggest that you start by talking to your local Law Enforcement people. My son-in-law is an active Police Officer, and he has had extensive training/ experience with situations much like this one.

Be careful in dealing with Joel. There is MAJOR instablity there.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:28 am
by Fhqwhgads
OK. Thanks EdSaari.
Madhatter: Have you told her how you feel? If there is any way you can communicate your position to her (preferably in terms of "I feel like such & such" rather than "you're doing such & such"), I'd go for it. And if she's church folk, you can always say "Hey, I really like you and all, but I really don't feel comfortable with the flirting and the messing around like this unless it's going to be a serious long term relationship" (drop the word "marriage" in there if you can) - if she's just messing with you to get at this other guy like you seem to suspect, that should be the end of the deal right there. 8)

Of course, this could backfire. :o This could be good or bad. Depends on what you want to have happen.


Sounds like y'all are church-folk-types. Have you asked God what's best? (Warning: The answer you get may not be something you like.) He's looking out for you, man. Check out Jeremiah 29:11. Regardless of the crap we pull on each other on a day to day basis, he is still *crazy* about you. I don't know why. I don't get it either. He just is. (Sorry if that's too far out for some people but I'm only one guy with one point of view; I don't have any other to speak from.) So I guess any advice I might have would boil down to: Pray about it and then go talk to her. Hope that helps somewhat...


PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:01 am
by Madhatter45
Hey thanks man, that does help somewhat. Your right I should pray about it. God will let things pan out however he wants them to. I feel a bit better now, thanks again!