QoW Update - comic for 1/17

There are no monkeys in here. Really.

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Postby Mira Mira on Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:26 pm

Flameoftheabyss wrote:Angela might not have been completely honest with Kestrel, because she knew Kestrel would not take it well.

But the problem is, Angela presented herself as someone who was completely honest and open and free of BS games. And Kestrel, who does take people at face value for the most part, believed her. So now that it turns out that Angela is guilty of the romantic games she claimed to hate so much, I find it hard to blame Kestrel for questioning how much she really knows Angela and how much faith she can really have in their relationship. And I also find it hard to blame her for wanting to break things off before those questions consumed whatever was left of that faith.
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Postby Calisto on Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:33 pm

ZotKitty wrote:I don't understand why people are saying Angela betrayed Kestrel. I think Angela truly has wanted to be her friend, and she can't help the attraction as well.
It's not necessarily that Angela was betraying Kestrel, but that Kestrel feels betrayed by it.
Zotkitty also wrote:Kestrel has known since the kiss that Angela harbored feelings for her; in my book, if she didn't jump up and run out of the apartment THAT day so long ago, why is this so much harder to deal with?
Because Angela assured her they could be friends without all that between them. I'm sure she meant it too. I'm not trying to blame Angela for this. I'm sure her intentions were good when she originally said this, but over time the feelings grew to where she couldn't control it. For me, this isn't a so and so is wrong dammit! kinda thing, but I was reading where people were thinking Kestrel was overreacting etc and I felt I had to defend her a bit. I'd feel the same way were it me.

sidenote: I should really use the preview button first, she says as she edits her post for the 3rd time :lol:
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Postby snowden on Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:20 pm

I just got back from reading through the archives to see this, and it really does put a LOT of what was said in a different light. I guess we did kind of know this, but still. I really like Angela's character, and I hope they manage to stay friends, but I have no idea where this is headed.
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Some thoughts

Postby Chronodin on Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:35 pm

Mira Mira wrote:But the problem is, Angela presented herself as someone who was completely honest and open and free of BS games. And Kestrel, who does take people at face value for the most part, believed her.

This is a very good point, but if Kestrel can only be good friends with people who don't play any games whatsoever -- intentionally or not -- she will live a very lonely life.

I believe almost everyone (almost) plays them. A lot of good people don't mean to. I don't think Angela meant to. She really truly wanted to be friends with Kestrel, but the fact is if, when they had that talk before, if she said, "No, I can't let go of my feelings, I can't just be friends," then Kestrel most likely would have stopped being friends with her at that point, and Angela knew that. Maybe she really believed that she could let go of them. Or maybe she knew that she couldn't, but when you care about someone that much, and you know that being honest will take them out of your life, then being honest is a pretty difficult thing to do. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong thing to do, but I'm not sure I'd be able to do it.

And I still think that Kestrel needs to see that Angela really needs a friend right now, just someone to talk to. In my opinion, and this is only my opinion, saying that they shouldn't hang out anymore like that makes Kestrel, not Angela, the one being selfish.

Ahh, irony.

And being new to the forums, I'm sure there have been discussions like this one before, but this is the first one I'm involved in, and I must say that it really takes some talent to write something that can spark so many people having such an intelligent discussion (Nobody has resorted to name-calling! Are you sure this is an internet message board??). Bravo, Aeire.
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Postby ZotKitty on Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:01 pm

Good points, everyone!

I really wonder what Kestrel will say to Shannon when she gets home and Shannon asks what was going on ... and what Shannon will say to Kestrel about the whole scenario.
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Re: Some thoughts

Postby Pips on Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:14 pm

Chronodin wrote: (Nobody has resorted to name-calling! Are you sure this is an internet message board??). Bravo, Aeire.
N00b >=0

(just joking and being the kettle here.)

I wonder what Kestrel expected Angela to do, anyway. Tell her from the get go that she had a horrible crush, and then let the friendship never evolve - or somehow just lose all her feelings the instant Kestrel said she was straight? As many others have said, you can't just go BAM!~~ I feel nothing for you!

Kestrel's being unfair. Sure, she feels betrayed and embarrassed even, but it was rather obvious that Angela wasn't going to act on her feelings, and didn't even really think she'd get a chance - and with that in mind still wanted to be Kestrel's friend. A really good friend, at that, and I think Kestrel's being foolish to let her go.

Besides, doesn't absence make the heart grow fonder? :lol: They should spend a month together - every single moment togeether. That would soon stifle any romance o.o
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Postby seasong1 on Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:31 pm

Kestrel may have been acting selfishly, but she did (in this case) the best possible thing for Angela - she gave Angela a clean break. Now Angela can get over Kestrel and get on with her life.

And to be honest? Of the two, Angela was the better friend. That's why Kestrel made a good main character - the wise and caring friend is always in the supporting cast.

As a side note, I can't believe I registered for the sole purpose of talking about this. I've resisted registering on KeenSpot for almost two years now, despite the number of comics I read around here. Damn you, Aiere!
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Postby HiFranc on Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:34 pm

Welcome to QoW and it's forum, seasong1.

Am I too late for the first sentiment?
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Okay, maybe I've missed it already

Postby jpcrim on Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:56 pm

I have been in this situation. I have gone for all the straight guys that I thought were cute (I'm male). Of course, it never turned out the way I was hoping. It turned out similar to what Angela and Kestral are going through now. I stopped hanging around them for a while, and then friendship grew later. Nothing more than that.

Along with what everone else seems to be saying (i.e. Angela has broken Kestral's trust, and so on) I also think that maybe Kestral is cutting her ties preparing for her move. After all, it is much easier moving when there are few, if any, people that we are emotionally attached to (romantically, or otherwise).

Is Kestral acting unfair and selfish? Maybe, she is. Kestral has, however, come to a time in her life where being selfish isn't necessarily a bad thing. Those of you that have moved out on your own probably know what I'm talking about. She can't possibly get her life together if she is putting everyone else first constantly. She knows what she wants (to move to a better job), and knows what she has to do to obtain this goal, even if it means cutting those bonds that keep her and Angela friends. Will the friendship start up again in the future? I'm thinking only Aiere knows that, despite the fact that the comic is ending in February
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Postby Ambystoma4 on Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:34 pm

ZotKitty wrote:I've had friendships with men (I'm a woman) in which one of us has confessed feelings for the other. I don't think it's all that unique.

Kestrel kind of reminds me of Roast Beef from Achewood at moments.

Platonic relationships are perfectly normal. It just depends on how mature the people involved are going to be about it, and how well they can handle their emotions. I have several relationships like that, with some being like extended family.
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Not dishonest, not games...

Postby gwalihir on Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:39 pm

Angela confessed her feelings to Kestrel before: Kestrel turned her down, Angela has been her friend. Feeling the way she has towards Kestrel may have made her more interested than other friends in what was going on in Kestrel's life, but she has been the friend she promised to be.

Honestly, Angela hasn't been "hiding" anything: she had these feelings, she confessed them, agreed to be friends and hoped and expected that in time those feelings would go away. They didn't go away right away: and they didn't go away a little later: but what was she supposed to do? From the day after the kiss, start telling Kestrel: "I expect to stop feeling this way for you soon, but it hasn't happened yet?"

It wasn't a "game" for her to try to deal with her emotions on her own: it was her problem, not Kestrel's, and she knew it. She didn't talk about it because she didn't want to pressure Kestrel when Kestrel had already given her an answer.

As one poster said, I hope Angela doesn't try something desperate like suicide. But that's me thinking of her as a person, not a character: which just goes to show how good Aeire's writing is.

Darn it! As a piece of fiction, I could see all kinds of positive satisfaction coming out of this: two people who really care about each other crossing artificial boundaries and becoming what each other needs. But that's not the story Aeire is telling. Her story is closer to reality, and deals more with the frustration of NOT getting what you want, even when it is so close and can look so right from the outside. If she wrote a sequel about Kestrel years later, I fully expect we would see times when Kestrel looked back on her actions this night with regret.

Ending stories usually means closure. Stepping away from one potentially happy ending opens room for unhappy endings. But I am coming to realize that Aeire has a creative enough imagination to come up with something that will touch us all much more deeply than any of our off-the-cuff predictions. That's probably why she's writing QoW, and we're writing Forum posts.

Looking forward to the rest...
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Postby HiFranc on Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:59 am

Welcome to QoW and its forum, jpcrim.

gwalihir, you're right. QoW is actually starting to take over as my favourite webcomic.
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Re: Welcome

Postby gwalihir on Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:36 am

HiFranc wrote:gwalihir, you're right. QoW is actually starting to take over as my favourite webcomic.

"Starting to?" Man, I'm already there! Seeing you on as much as you are, I just assumed it already was yours!

Other than QoW and S*P, I don't know of any other web comics that have appealed to me nearly as much. With QoW getting close to the end, do you have any alternate suggestions that come close?

(I'm gonna be needin' a substitute fix... ;-)
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Postby GabrielTane on Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:26 am

(preemptive edit: This post was supposed to go in last night, but my computer was giving me problems.)

::clears throat::

First I'd like to say... Damn. I'm post number 35 (or so) in one day. If ever I could think of an example to tell outsiders about why this comic, and Aeire's story-telling ability, is just so... im out of words for this, so I'm settling for indescribably amazing... this would be it. 35 in one day. that means that whatever was going on in this story and however it was being told, it has sparked a lot of intelegent debate and inversation between a large group of people that don't really know each other that much.

Aeire, my deepest admiration and applause. i do not have enough words.

Now, on to my opinion. First: the conversation about Kestrel feeling betrayed... Mira Mira ponted out that Angela had represented herself as being free of the emotional mind-games and that she hated the very idea of them. Only to show that, on some level, she plays them afterall. I can see this hurting Kestral a good deal. If Kes is anything like me (and quite a few other people, I'm sure), that kind of hipocrasy is hard to overlook. And when that hipocrasy directly affects you, it is a personal situation. In this situation, I can see Kestral feeling betrayed.

Later in the post, MIra Mira also mentioned that the questioning from this revelation would eat away at Kestral's faith. One: there will be questioning after something like that. I've lost count of the sleepless nights I've spent questioning the "what-if's" and the "why's". Two: that kind of questioning will eat away at more than Kestral's faith. It will eat away at her hope and her happiness. Again, speaking from experiance here.

My second point of the evening. Is Kestral being selfish? Well, maybe. But the main point I want to bring to light is "so what?". I direct your attention to this visual aid:

http://www.queenofwands.net/d/20040730.html Particularly, Kestral's speach about 'its time to live my life for me'

There comes a time when you have to take a stand and say "NO! This life... this decision here and now is for me." Yes. absolutly no argument that this kind of decision will hurt someone. But if you don't break off those things that are poisoning your happiness, it will die. I'm not saying run away from all of the things that make your life uncomfortable, but you cannot choose to endure the pain every time just to avoid hurting others. Yes, someone will get hurt, but you have to choose your own happiness sometime.

Once, my mother had asked me "who's the most important person in the world?". I,being about 10 or so at the time, thought that she was fishing for a compliment so I answered "you are, mom!". She said "no, you are the most important person in your world. Never forget that." She also taught me to be a caring and giving person; to give all that I can to those that I care about. What I have learned from these two seemingly conflcting lessons is that you have to balance the two out. Give all you can without losing yourself. I think that's what Kestral is deciding to do now.

::takes a deep breath::. whew.
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Postby KitKaru on Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:00 am

I have remained silent the past few comics because it was hitting a little too close to home. Although there wasn't any of the same-gender issues, something eerily similar happened to me. The only difference was that I was open and honest about my feelings for her. I told her my feelings for her, understood that she was not going to return those feelings, and I accepted that and was grateful for the friendship we had. We ended up becomming unfriends because of this. She said that somehow I betrayed her by not eliminating my feelings for her that I already had disclosed and under control.

I guess this is a basic misunderstanding of that little word called 'love'. To say you love a person, you must first define it. Yet, that word tends to defy rational, logical definition, being a word of nearly pure emotion. While I am normally fluent, on this topic I find myself struggling with the confines of language, for emotions are things that language but poorely describes. However, I shall make the attempt, and apologise in advance for any errors I may make.

To define what love is, first we must exclude what it is not.
Primarily, we must seperate it from the common mis-conception that it goes hand-in-glove with Lust. Lust is a simple, basic, carnal emotion. It is, as was stated eariler, 'wanting to get into their pants'. That is lust. It is a biological urge programmed into all life to see to it that life will continue to the next generation. It is powerful, true, but limited in scope.
Love and trust have an interesting relationship. You can fall in love without trust, yet trust is the foundation of any real relationship, and without trust, any relationship will sour. Love gone sour is, perhaps, one of the most bitter and wretched droughts to plumb the human psyche. For a perfect example, watch Phantom of the Opera (in movie theaters now). This love was soured by his lack of trust. He did not trust her to see him without his mask, for fear that she would revile him for his appearance.
Perhaps the most critical part of love is caring. You must care about another person to love that person. So now we must define care. What does it mean to care about someone? To me, it means putting their feelings ahead of yours. To consider how something would affect the one you care for ahead of considering how it would affect you. To realize that you are not the center of your life anymore.
But Love is more than Caring and Trust together. There is something... ephemeral... something which defies all definition... something that I do not believe even has words to describe. Should I have to try and define it, I would say that it is the opposite side of the coin of lust, like anger is the flip side of happy. Perhaps I can define it thus:

There is a difference between 'making love' and 'doing the nasty'. If you are sleeping with someone because they are attractive, that is lust. If you are friends who sometimes screw around for the fun of it, that is lust. If you sleep with someone because they make you feel good, that is lust. But if you sleep with someone because it is the ultimate expression of an emotion so big that it is the only way to fully express the way you feel... that is love.

I do not think Angela loved Kestrel. I think she held some lust for her, but she did not trust her and did not care about her. She put her own lust ahead of Kestrel's feelings. She did things to manipulate Kestrel so that she just might have a chance with her. That is not love. I think... I think that the reason why this hit Kestrel so hard was that she was beginning to fall in love with Angela. She trusted Angela. In many ways, she cared about Angela. However, she was still not going to sleep with Angela because she just didn't feel that way about Angela. Then she finds out that Angela, quite frankly, lied to Kestrel and admitted to manipulating Kestrel, and put her feelings ahead of Kestrel's.

I do not blame Angela for not being able to banish her feelings. You can not banish feelings. If you try, they will jump out at you, usually at the worst time. However, you don't have to give into them either. That is where I blame Angela.

And yet... I feel pity for Angela. I understand her loneliness all too well. I see a hurt in her past that is far beyond what she has said so far. But she has confused the opposite of lonely with love, and it is not. She is trying to find someone, anyone, to love and to be with forever. She has forgotten, or never knew, that friendship can also be the opposite of lonely. Angela cannot see someone caring about her unless they are sleeping with her, which speaks of some rather severe abuse in her past. She craves caring, desperatly seeks it, and is doomed to never find it. Her blind panic to find someone who will care for her is keeping her from caring about anyone, and caring is never a one way street. So she will keep flailing about trying to find someone to care for her, and keep hurting those who would care about her just like she just did with Kestrel.

Something in Angela's life, likely her childhood, taught her to be this way. In some sense, she doesn't have a choice in being like she is, yet in another way she does. No one is holding a gun to her head and forcing her to be like this (anymore), so she does have the potential to change. However, she is so blinded by her teaching that she cannot see it. Is this fair? No. But then again, since when was life fair?

I apologise if I have rambled on too long, this topic hit a nerve for me.
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Postby rukh03 on Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:47 am

jpcrim wrote:Kestral has, however, come to a time in her life where being selfish isn't necessarily a bad thing... She can't possibly get her life together if she is putting everyone else first constantly.

Those are words of wisdom if I ever heard 'em. Good point Jpcrim. I myself am at a similar point in my life. Not the moving part, but just realizing that it is okay to do things for myself once in a while.

I just want to say again that I am so impressed with Aeire's writting. The characters have such realistic faults and problems. You can tell they are all trying their best and messing up in such understandable ways.

Bravo Aeire!

P.S. Can't wait to see how it all ends.
I'm rooting for a realistic, hopefull ending. (happy endings aren't realistic)

[EDIT]: I type slow, so I'll add it here: KitKaru, that's a very deep insight.
Thank-you for sharing.
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Favourite comic and quick comment or two

Postby HiFranc on Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:38 pm

My favourite comic is actually Clan of the Cats. I may not post as much there but it does mean much to me. Like QoW it's progressed from a gag-a-day strip to something deeper and multidimensional.

Onto the discussion. I can't really add much to what has already been said except, as I understand it, a psychologist's definition of love is: the ability to perceive another's needs and to meet them.

I will say this, however, Angela doesn't seem to be trying manipulate Kestral. However, the comments of Seamus (amount she talks about Kestral) and the diary entry (as I mentioned in another thread) means that Angela has defined herself, very largely, in terms of how Kestral views her. Her self confidence is going to take a very large knock as Kestral was her self confidence.
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Postby TornRagDoll on Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:32 pm

Nayl wrote:Thing I'm wondering at this point is just why Kestrel is reacting this way. I don't really buy her stated reasons. I'm guessing her impending move and the feelings of loss that go with it are making her a bit less than rational where her friends are concerned.

I agree with this to some extent. I think that Kestrel is maybe trying to use this as an out, not having to deal with the fact that she's leaving and will thus be losing Angela as a friend anyway. This makes it easier on her and makes it "not her fault" in a way.

I'm sure that's not the only issue, it would also be difficult to have to deal with that kind of emotion coming from someone you care about in a totally different way than they care about you.. and the shock of not knowing what was going on with that person for that long...

I don't really feel either character is being "selfish" persay. Angela can't help the feelings she has for Kestral, and perhaps she didn't realize the extent that they were controling her actions. And Kestral can't help the way she reacts to the situation. She's hurt by what she feels is an extreme betrayal on Angela's part. She can't be expected to just bouce back. Even if she already knew about Angela's feelings, it's still something she hasn't had to deal with as they elevated.

I don't know. It's just those defense mechanisms kicking in. Hopefully Kestral will sort it out before she leaves. It wouldn't be right to leave Angela like that. Regardless of how Kestral may feel about the situation, and what motivation Angela had for being involved in Kestral's life, it does not change that fact that Angela has cared for Kestral, and vice versa, and they have developed a friendship that has meaning for both of them. I believe there's too much between them for them to be able to just cut ties.
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Postby walking spanish on Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:52 pm

Ain' it great how many of us long time readers just decided to sign up to give our two cents about this situation?

It really grabbed me, too. My favourite comic is a lot different from this one. Up until this month I would check in every so often, and usually end up missing a few comics here and there. Now I've become so engrossed in this that I've forgotten to check a few old stand bys.

Anyway, about this here situation.

It's interesting how so many people are taking it from the "What if this happened to me?" kind of thing, and you can almost tell how which of her readers have been in Angela's position recently (or painfully) enough for the comic in itself to hurt them.

That being said, I'm not sure how Angela's playing those typical highschool girl emotion games, and I'm beginning to think that everyone else is assuming that she was because Kestrel accused her of doing that. I've always thought part of what made those games what they were was the desire for attention behind them, and Angela doesn't really seem to be trying to draw Kestrel in or want attention from her. She's not even playing mind games. She was just flat out avoiding a question that she knew Kestrel wouldn't like the answer to, which is another thing. Angela made it seem that the reason why she didn't bring up that she was in love with her is because Kestrel's happiness and friendship means more to her than the feelings that she has for her, which should be at least a little proof that not everything she's done for Kestrel was motivated by the love thing, and Angela probably would have been just as good of a friend to Kestrel if she wasn't in love with her.

And it seems like Angela's put a lot of energy into hiding her feelings just so that this uncomfortable situation wouldn't happen, and she could keep her as a friend... and to have to lose her anyway for something she tried her damndest to control but really couldn't must be really defeating.

Yay for asigning emotions to fictional characters.
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Postby Ambystoma4 on Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:47 pm

This has been a favorite since I found it. For suggestions I'd say Questionable Content and Gin and the Devil. Not exactly the same, but not many are able to pull off the dark attitude that QoW and S*P can.

Walking Spanish, I agree with you. We know that Kestrel is kind of clueless about "girl games", so she's probably not the best person to make that judgement call. She has probably adapted to not calling attention to herself as a survival technique. If anything I'd think that Angela has the right to be royally pissed if anyone does.

If Kestrel does feel that Angela has been manipulating her then she really doesn't understand what it's like to be in love with someone, and she doesn't persue people very often. I'm still trying to figure out why Kes is reacting the way she is unless she is realizing that she has been a jerk to Angela and is covering rather then admit to it. Angela probably could have worded everything different too.

For me the difference between love and lust is love is mental and is lust physical with the two frequently combining or leading into one or the other. The best way to I've found to explain it is that if I'm in lust my thought patterns are still clear and in love I'm foggy and on autopilot. You can't really have one with out the other since it all starts off as lust after all.

As for KitKaru's assessment of Angela, I doubt she is lonely in the actual sense of the word; I think longing is a better descriptor for her feelings. Angela has always read as a very extroverted person who's emotions run very close to the surface. Some people are very emotional and touchy feely like that. It has been mentioned that she has been on her own since she was 16, why was never explained, so I'm thinking her optimism is more an outgrowth of having to motivate herself to survive tough times. Also the way she described poly makes me think that she is very sexually uninhibited and big hearted. Not necessarily damaged just very free. After all sex is just a series of motions that are designed to stimulate nerves and chemical releases. Think beyond the puritan ideas of sex being the ultimate token of affection into something where it is something in significant, and the mental connection and commitment to stay with that person is the ultimate token. I think she is more hurt by being taken advantage of because of her free spirit rather then people appreciating it for what it is. She is just a very caring, open person.
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Postby Gerbie on Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:47 pm

KitKaru wrote:I have remained silent the past few comics because it was hitting a little too close to home.

Same here.

I am currently in exactly the same situation as Angela (except that I'm a guy). Only difference is I don't have anyone spilling the truth for me. (thank the gods) I've also had the same situation before get ended in the way it's been ended for Angela.

For obvious reasons, I don't like talking about it much, but I will say this.. Kestrel reacted EXACTLY as Angela feared she would. And that is why Angela kept it hidden from her.

She would rather live with lasting pain and a friend, than with temporary pain and no friend. Trust me, I've had both, the former is better.

Angela has my sympathies.
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Postby HiFranc on Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:09 am

Welcome to the forum (and QoW), walking spanish and TornRagDoll.
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