Science debate|current topic: Tea for the wicked!!!

Ever have one of those days?

Moderator: JoeEngland

Postby MrBigMr on Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:02 am

Dacheran wrote:I've noticed you try to provide analogies to us and other earth creatures to disrepute various arguments

This is science DEBATE, not science AGREEMENT. I think it's wrong to lull ourselves into backslapping and holding our theories as truthiness.
Since the angry mob is gathering, time to release the theory monster from its slumber:
As for the claws, I find them to be very much like the ones Raziel and other evolved vampires have in the Soul Reaver series. They are very crude, acting as weapons and enabling Raziel to climb walls. He can also hold weapons and manipulate items, but I don't think he'll be able to perform successful surgery with those hands.
As they are claws, designed for rending and such, I have little belief that they have much feeling nor use other than rending. As claws they must have some sort of hard part for them to cut with. Otherwise it would be like cutting down stuff with karate chops.

For one thing we already know that she's nothing like an animal like you and me, otherwise Jack would have much less problem.

And from there we can reason that the "creatures have evolved not to do self harm" is not valid as she is not a naturaly evolved creature. And in one of the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy books there was a creature that was so horrific and had so many claws and teeth that it actualy kept hurting itself all the time with them.
But what does stop her from scarring up? Her claws must be sharp as she always eviscerates something, like her pillows, 'Shoulers' head (not demonshoulders, the one in the mall before the harpooning) and so on.
As her touch feels delicate, her skin is able to absorb the sharp feeling of the claw, or her skin has less feeling than normal.

Shape changing claws would explain things, but Sandra hasn't stated that her claws change shape and I'd think your notice such alterations. As for hellfire style demonic aura, it would be understandable, but I also wonder if demons have a sort of resistance against their own attacks. As all the demons seem to be so friendly with each other, they don't seem to need to hurt each other and as such could/would/should be protected from this demonic aura cutting power.

but they dont' hold water.

Neither does your bladder, bed-wetter.
Don't make me revive another long dead thread, you poopy head.
"May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy their fate be granted glory."
- Edel, Princess Tutu
MrBigMr
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: Finland

hmm...

Postby Dacheran on Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:39 am

The thing is though, obviously she DOESN'T cut herself, and obviously she CAN slice through other demons. So in that matter why would other demons be resistant to her? (They may not actually be precisely the same kind of demon, they're similar, but there are subtle differences. I imagine these demons are more along the lines of Rage and Cage, which I also beleive to be different from Sandra, despite the hellfire. I'm just looking at the patterns on the skin, the other demons have already been noted to be a lot more geometric than her, she has a more natural stripy look.)

There's not any reason for demons to be resistant to eachother, going with the slicy aura thing. I don't need to go next door and poke someones eye out, but I could. I suppose they CAN have a resistance, but I don't see why they would.

Likewise the no "creatures evolved not to do self harm" route, it's true she may not have. But it makes sense, here we can invoke occam's razor. It's really the simplest way to do things, and even if she's not our kind of creature, there are already similarities, I dont' see why not stabbing yourself every time you take a shower isn't one of them.

(You said a potty word! I'm telling teacher!)
Live defines itself, the rest is nothing more than cosmetics.
User avatar
Dacheran
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:19 pm

Postby BrianJ on Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:20 am

Teeth have nerve endings inside them, which is why you can tell when you're biting something, and can instinctually determine how much jaw pressure will be needed to cut through it, and when to stop when you have finished the chewing. I will grant that nails do not, but there ARE nerves directly under the nail and at the near end of them (the base end inside your finger near the cuticle). This is why it hurts if you cut your finger nails too short.

I actually did the experiment: I rapped my fingernail very lightly against a table. You know what? I felt the impact. Then I taped a toothpick to my fingertip and tried to lightly tap the table again (yes, I have WAY too much free time on my hands). I felt nothing. If it wasn't for the sound of the impact between the stick and the table, I wouldn't have known contact was ever made.

The point is, feeling is there, even with claws, as long as they are a part of you. Knives and gloves-with-knives do not have that advantage. And Sandra has stated that she can feel with her fingers. With feeling, you can determine (more or less) amount of pressure.

There has been no actual "proof" that her fingers can change from rounded to edged other than vague glimpses in different scenes in the comic (which may be attributed to the slight changes in drawing style as Joe perfects his art). There is also no evidence that her fingers can grow and shrink, nor that there is any sort of nimbus power around her fingers when striking. There is also no proof to refute these claims. Most of the things discussed in this thread do not have much proof one way or the other. That's why they're being discussed as possibilities in this thread.

I believe an argument can be made that IF there is some sort of hell-power surrounding/infusing her claws when she slices, other demons MAY be immune to the effect of that power. Just as the hell-power doesn't hurt Sandra when she uses it (if it is a cutting power that surrounds her fingers, what would keep her own finger from being cut by it unless it cannot harm her?), other demons may not be affected by it, since they would theoretically have that same power. However, such immunity to the hell-power aspect of the attack would not (necessarily) make them immune to the physical attributes of the attack (meaning when she slices through in that 7th panel, it was probably just her raw frenzy strength doing all that damage. Dang, she's strong!).
Last edited by BrianJ on Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby BrianJ on Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:25 am

(edit: double post, so I'll just change this one to say something new and different)

It also occurs to me that demons ARE so friendly toward each other BECAUSE they know how much damage they could do to each other if they were savage toward each other.
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby vole-in-hand on Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:37 am

I'm getting the feeling her claws are a little out of the ordinary for demonkind. Most of the other examples have been more like hands or bird talons. Could it be that even down there she's exotic?
User avatar
vole-in-hand
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:04 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Postby MCWagner on Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:24 pm

You know, the term "claws" is only a label of convenience for her & us. In closeups of her hands, there doesn't seem to be anything like distinct finger/fingernail junctions... her fingers just get thinner & thinner and pointier and (presumeably) harder as they reach the tip. It's the difference between a keratinous protective/weapon coating on the tips of her fingers, and fully enervated tissue, however hard, sharp, or inflexible. We're used to the former, but the latter would make more sense for a creature with fingers as long and potentially clumsy as Sandra. Being able to "feel" with the full length of her finger would at least help with the "not stab yourself" aspect, although not completely prevent it.

It's weird to think of... the only comparison I have is the comic version of "Lady Deathstrike" from X-men... her hands were very Sandra-like, with the Adamantium "claws" being merely a lengthening of her fingers and a shaping into blades, as opposed to the sharpened fingernails they showed in the movie.
MCWagner
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:33 am

Postby MrBigMr on Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:17 pm

Looking at the newest strip, it seems that the cutting power comes from some demonic thing on command, as her tail didn't cut things before. Right? I can't remember anymore, getting old.
Wonder what else she can use to cut things. Makes hugs dangerous.
"May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy their fate be granted glory."
- Edel, Princess Tutu
MrBigMr
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: Finland

Postby BrianJ on Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:48 pm

Actually, the tail has cut before, but not much attention has been drawn to it. Third line of this comic (at "ZOW!"), for instance.

Also, her tail, as discussed before in this thread, is pretty flexible and able to change shape a little, going from a curved "hook" tip to "spear" straight.
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby Krehlmar on Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:09 am

hah, seriously, in a comic where demonhood is present aswell as magic you bring in the second law of thermophysics as an argument?

Best left to the imagination Id say : )
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams beneath your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams...
User avatar
Krehlmar
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Everywhere, Always, Forever.

Postby MCWagner on Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:47 pm

Now for some theories about the nature of hell!

(Just thought I'd re-start this if anyone wanted to discuss more about Hell now that we've been granted a glimpse.)

So, if every wound eventually heals in hell... does that make daemons in their native plane immortal? It doesn't necessicarily follow, since aging isn't specifically addressed, but it seems appropriate...
MCWagner
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:33 am

Postby Skippy the Neandert(h)al on Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:52 am

` Wow, I think this thread is a demonstration of people having way too much time on their hands.
` Through the Goggles of Science and Wackmobiles, I can see into the mind of anyone... Occasionally, this sensory madness causes me to have Spurious Brainchildren. Want proof? Be my guest.
` While you're visiting, feel free to wander into my lab. Watch that I don't keep you there.
` Oh, apparently I'm also some sort of artist and lame photo comedian. Who knew?
User avatar
Skippy the Neandert(h)al
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:41 pm
Location: My Big, Dark Secret Laboratory

Postby BrianJ on Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:43 am

Yep. We's gots da piles o' time. In my spare time, I waste time! :evilgrin:

It seems very appropriate that all wounds heal in hell, even fatal ones. Immortality is absolutely NECESSARY in hell, since it's supposed to be (in most theologies that include a hell) a place of ETERNAL torment. If one could die from the tortures, it'd no longer be eternal. It also answers the question, "if someone dies in Hell, where would they (meaning their souls) go?" Answer: They DON'T die. They just regenerate, and the agony continues.

Aging in demons is somewhat addressed, as Lord Incubus was supposedly imprisoned for three kajillion years (give or take a kajillion). For someone his age, he doesn't look a day over a zillion. :lol:
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby Omeg@ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:26 am

I've been thinking in my own hell's theory that if you regenerate forever, you kinda live forever, right. So, what happens when some-one/thing eats you as a whole? You regenerate in one's stomach? or become one with your devouer?
If Pavlov and Mengele had a child together, his name would be Omeg@.
-MrBigMr
User avatar
Omeg@
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2438
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:11 am
Location: above the ground level.

Postby BrianJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:36 am

My first thought is that you'd probably have to wait until you pass through the eater's system and come out the other side as fecal matter, THEN you'd slowly start to regenerate. You'd probably also still be conscious through the whole process, able to remember forever every sight, sound, and sensation of passing through the colon.

With that in mind, I'm not sure the eater would get much in the way of nutritional value from the eating, but might still get enjoyment of the meal anyway.
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby Skippy the Neandert(h)al on Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:41 pm

` Weird! ...Then again, how could you have senses if your eyes and ears are shredded up?
` Through the Goggles of Science and Wackmobiles, I can see into the mind of anyone... Occasionally, this sensory madness causes me to have Spurious Brainchildren. Want proof? Be my guest.
` While you're visiting, feel free to wander into my lab. Watch that I don't keep you there.
` Oh, apparently I'm also some sort of artist and lame photo comedian. Who knew?
User avatar
Skippy the Neandert(h)al
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:41 pm
Location: My Big, Dark Secret Laboratory

Postby MCWagner on Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:42 am

BrianJ wrote:My first thought is that you'd probably have to wait until you pass through the eater's system and come out the other side as fecal matter, THEN you'd slowly start to regenerate. You'd probably also still be conscious through the whole process, able to remember forever every sight, sound, and sensation of passing through the colon.

With that in mind, I'm not sure the eater would get much in the way of nutritional value from the eating, but might still get enjoyment of the meal anyway.


Hmm... that may explain the unique way that Sandra "eats" with the direct draining away thing. Daemons apparently don't "eat" in any real sense, but drain essence.

As to the "heal every wound" vs. "eaten alive" I suppose it's a question of how you "heal"... whether you "regrow" limbs lost or all the bits and pieces that were you get pulled back together. If it's the first, then being devoured whole might possibly obliterate you, if the stomach acid just dissolved you away faster than the "healing" takes place until there's no part of you actually left to regrow from. If it's the "pull back together" aspect, then you would reconstitute (slowly, probably) from the leavings of the monster once you come out the other end.

(If I'm not being clear, think of that old movie "The Monster Squad". They blow up a wolfman with a stick of TNT, but it doesn't kill him. After a few minutes all the pieces just fly back together and reassemble.)

Just looking at Sandra and BS's battle, especially now that Sandra's getting her horns back, it appears more of the "regrow" type. This also goes along with her regrowing her wings previously.

Of course, there's the starfish question... chop off a daemon's head, and which part regrows? The head or the body? Or do you get two daemons?
MCWagner
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:33 am

Postby ShardZ on Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:22 am

There's also the less-interesting question: are demons even "physical," in the strictest sense, while in hell? DS himself calls them "elemental beings"--unless he got that from the same source as Chalk's "essentially an essence" essay, which could always be misinformation. :smug:

but if Chalk and DS are correct, are those physical bodies just extensions of the mind, which is why they "heal" so easily? It could be the same for the human souls suffering in hell... they believe they're being burned, sliced, etc., so they "feel" it, even though their physical bodies are back on Earth, rotting into dust.

Or maybe the line between "mortal" physical and "Hell" physical is essentially blurred, and it doesn't matter... if they are physical beings, and regrow lost parts (as it seems) rather than reattach them, could there be some interesting leftovers lying around once the bubble has dissolved? :evilgrin:
User avatar
ShardZ
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: The haunts of grues, lucksuckers and eldritch vapors.

Postby Sekenre on Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:58 am

a different mike wrote:Something like the human 'break the fall of the sharp/heavy tool with your foot / grab the falling knife/soldering iron/whatever' reflex - dating from a few tens of millenia when a cut-up foot or hand might be less of a survival problem than shattering a flint tool/weapon that can't be replaced quickly.


Sorry I have to disagree with this. Flint or obsidian tools are cheap and easy to make once you have a bit of practice. Recovering from a (possibly infected) wound is much more difficult.

See: http://flintknapping.com/index.html

a different mike wrote:(Note that people CAN replace that reflex with "pull your hand/foot AWAY from the falling object, once they realize they HAVE the reflex and it's no longer appropriate.)


I think that the pull away reflex is the natural one that is replaced whenever we are punished for dropping things as children. In Pre-history we did not often live in places that had hard floors, and we did not have expensive tools or glass.

My parents only used plastic drinking vessels, and taught me to respect knives and the like, so I never lost the dodge reflex. Now I'm all growed up and a juggler, I can catch thinks if I like, or get the heck out of the way.

God! I'm such a pedant and it's an older post too, I hope it didn't sound trollish!

EDIT: Actually, looking through more of the posts here I have come to the conclusion that this is the thread for pedantry! Wooohoo! :D I have found my place in the world!
e<sup>i π </sup>+ 1 = 0

"Gentlemen, that is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means. But we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth." Benjamin Peirce
User avatar
Sekenre
Junior Keenspotter
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:00 am
Location: The Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral Arm

Postby Omeg@ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:41 pm

Sekenre wrote:EDIT: Actually, looking through more of the posts here I have come to the conclusion that this is the thread for pedantry! Wooohoo! :D I have found my place in the world!

I glad. ^^


Now burn



Image
If Pavlov and Mengele had a child together, his name would be Omeg@.
-MrBigMr
User avatar
Omeg@
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2438
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:11 am
Location: above the ground level.

Postby Omeg@ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:52 pm

ShardZ wrote:There's also the less-interesting question: are demons even "physical," in the strictest sense, while in hell? DS himself calls them "elemental beings"--unless he got that from the same source as Chalk's "essentially an essence" essay, which could always be misinformation. :smug:

but if Chalk and DS are correct, are those physical bodies just extensions of the mind, which is why they "heal" so easily? It could be the same for the human souls suffering in hell... they believe they're being burned, sliced, etc., so they "feel" it, even though their physical bodies are back on Earth, rotting into dust.

Or maybe the line between "mortal" physical and "Hell" physical is essentially blurred, and it doesn't matter... if they are physical beings, and regrow lost parts (as it seems) rather than reattach them, could there be some interesting leftovers lying around once the bubble has dissolved? :evilgrin:

Ah, but to define hell is a work of a different magnitude. If hell would have a physical- and meta-physical laws that are nothing close to our own, 'eating' ,as we understand it, might be impossible. But to 'harvest' one's energy to yourself might not. Is hell a prison where not even death can be an escape tunnel, or is it a merely a place inside space and time? If yes, is no, then why? what? how? when? pie, anyone?
If Pavlov and Mengele had a child together, his name would be Omeg@.
-MrBigMr
User avatar
Omeg@
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2438
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:11 am
Location: above the ground level.

Postby BrianJ on Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:29 am

I'll have pumpkin, thanks! :D
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby strange_person on Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:23 am

I suspect that demons collect souls for the same reason humans "collect" arable land; it's a continous food supply (since the soul makes the body self-maintaining; the soulless magi looked like the kind of people who need feeding tubes), and provides aesthetic pleasure. Trees look nice to us, pain feels good to them.

Sandra might actually be a succubus, and (at the same time) physiologically indistinguishable from an angel.

Succubus: People think she's attractive (not just Jack; Doyenne, Mike, Mike's freinds). She sucks what could be interpreted as life-energy from people, by close physical contact.

She's insanely dangerous to actually have sex with, but that also fits. Intercourse itself is not necessarily (in fact, rarely) the best way to cultivate lust.

She feeds from people indiscriminately and in a completly non-seductive context because she's new at it, and she's really freaking hungry. When she managed to nab Broadshoulders's soul, there was definitely a sex vibe involved.

She doesn't shapeshift to look human because, again, lack of practice. She's discovering new powers all the time, that one could be next. Halloween is a whole separate thing, automatically granted to all demons. Like one of those office secret-santa deals, only everyone gets what they actually want.

Angelic qualities:

Barring injury or preference, she's a filter-feeder, and whatever else you say about angels, they don't seem to need 3 squares a day.

The "chill of death" Chalk mentions isn't itself un-angelic. What, never heard of the Angel of Death?

She disinfects stuff just by touching it. "Purifiying touch" doesn't sound very demonic to me, but that's one of the things she can do.

Angels sometimes look human, but they're still angels underneath (and can be indentified as such if you know how to look). Sandra turned into a human for Halloween, and even called herself "Angel."

Angels have a long history of smiting sinners with fire at a distance and righteous wrath up close. Jack's pervier moments and the guy who didn't like his wife's cooking could both be interpreted as "sinners."

Sandra gets really angry when she is injured, to the point that a random guy with a chair distracts her from Broadshoulders.

The only time an O-class demon gets hungry for macrobiotics, let alone sentients, is when it's been injured.

Injuring an angel (or trying to) => righteous wrath and all kinds of nasty punishments, up to and including nasty plagues and death, and then the angel is all fine afterwards.

Commanding presence. In Angels with Dirty Fur, she (briefly) tells Crystal and Sam when to start and stop talking, and the do, without question. She does the same thing to the demons in the hellbubble.

That last one seems to be as much Sandra as Zebra; even pre-transformation, she was the responsible one. Sandra is, like, what you would get if you combined the X-chromosomes of Bruce Wayne and Gregor Samsa.
strange_person
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:37 pm

Postby Omeg@ on Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:20 am

Sandra seems to be more into wrath than into lust, you know. I wonder if there are demons for every seven sins.
If Pavlov and Mengele had a child together, his name would be Omeg@.
-MrBigMr
User avatar
Omeg@
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2438
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:11 am
Location: above the ground level.

Postby BrianJ on Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:54 am

strange_person wrote:Angels have a long history of smiting sinners with fire at a distance and righteous wrath up close... the guy who didn't like his wife's cooking could both be interpreted as "sinners."

And say what you want, it was effective: Alex "repented" ("I love you, let's make up"). :lol:

Omeg@ wrote:Sandra seems to be more into wrath than into lust, you know. I wonder if there are demons for every seven sins.

That'd make sense. D'ya ever read Jack?
"Man. Floating in a Mindscape while getting sucked on by an evil parasite isn't NEAR this boring in the comic books." -Jack
User avatar
BrianJ
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 am
Location: San Diego

Postby BillyGoat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:29 pm

BrianJ wrote:
Omeg@ wrote:Sandra seems to be more into wrath than into lust, you know. I wonder if there are demons for every seven sins.

That'd make sense. D'ya ever read Jack?


...or the movie "Pumpkinhead"? (also known as "Vengeance the Demon")
--William T. Goat, Esquire
Chicks dig the hooves.

I am now a deviant! Wheee!
User avatar
BillyGoat
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:35 pm
Location: Zombietown

 
PreviousNext

Return to Zebra Girl

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron