Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Ever have one of those days?

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Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Skullduggerous on Tue May 12, 2009 4:06 pm

I figure we needed this.

Get in here, Omeg@! Get in here, MrBigMr! Come one, come all, ye disputing theologians and bantering biologists! This be henceforth the place to discuss ye Matters of Divinity, philosophy, and general quandaries concerning the comic known as Zebra Girl.

I've noticed there's a lot of dispute over the fine points of good and evil, God/Satan, religion vs. realism, that sort of thing. This is the field in which to speak of such matters.

So, in the words of a certain deluded hamster, LET IT BEGIN! Dredge up those nagging questions, those confusing conundrums you've kept silent for so long!Who would like to be the first to voice an inquiry for the public to discuss?
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby vole-in-hand on Wed May 13, 2009 11:00 pm

Aiiiiiiiiiiight.

I forgot what we were talking about really. Anyway that God stuff was going nowhere; I think the demons are more interesting.

I'm personally fascinated by the Japanese youkai, which as I understand it are sort of a catch-all monster, a demon, ghost of man or beast, nature spirit, god, you name it. In many other cultures these beings intersect as well. So like when a man dies, he could become an animal spirit, or the wind, or whatever, or some wild force like lightning or flood could have a human-like form. Before it was all tidied up and cataloged by Jewish scholars "demon" was a much fuzzier concept.

I think the Zebra-land demons line up most nicely with the superstitions of recently-converted pagans in Ole Europe, exhibiting abilities like appearing out of nowhere, defying gravity, corrupting the minds of mortals, bestowing horrible curses, and generally just screwing with simple, honest people just for the lulz. Still consistent with that era, they can be thwarted with holy items, yes roam freely in the shadows, implying that Christianity is sort of like a band-aid or fire-extinguisher religion that may or may not work as advertised when the real baddies come wafting under the door.

Think about the really, really old vampyr legends and you're pretty close. I think Joe's pulling his inspirations from a myriad of sources, giving birth to creatures like the infamous Miskatonic demon, a being of snakes, smoke and heavy metal that combines elements of Christian tradition, pagan magic, and eventually Hollywood action-hero pragmatism in the face of it. You know, like Buffy.

Jack would know more about it than me. But apparently he thinks wizards are supposed to be all cryptic or something. I wonder if he believes in God? Eh?
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Omeg@ on Thu May 14, 2009 1:19 am

We do have the science debate thread, you know.
Though I guess this thread's idea differences a bit from that, since SDT heh is based on discussion how science and magic might work in Zebraverse.
I'm guessing that this thread is more about general non-science stuff, which makes it sort of a sister thread to SDT.


*ahem*
I myself don't like to define god and rest of that stuff too deeply. It very much loses it's spark when we can analyse it through cold hard facts.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby MrBigMr on Thu May 14, 2009 10:32 am

Omeg@ wrote:SDT heh is based on discussion how science and magic might work in Zebraverse.
I'm guessing that this thread is more about general non-science stuff, which makes it sort of a sister thread to SDT.

Did you even read what you wrote? Magic is more scientific than faith? After we've talked about pretty much any subject possible in the SDT thread, suddenly faith is not "scientific" enough, not like magic.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Skullduggerous on Thu May 14, 2009 1:29 pm

I figured I'd leave the poor ol' Science Thread alone, for two reasons.

1. The poor thing has been battered to kingdom come by all manner of inquisitories. I figured we should start with something fresh.

2. Any debate on the exact dimensions of existing ZG powers, magic, and general hoodah are actually up to Joe. Being the diabolical, arbitrary God of the ZG-verse, he is the ultimate authority on the subject. And since we can't ask him every little thing that pops into our heads (well, I can, because I'm writing a ridiculously over-researched fanfic) we should be content to hold our opinions to some extent. (Except that won't happen. So if there's a science or logic question you want to pose, go ahead. The supernatural stuff should outnumber it, thereby validating its presence.)

Yup.

Oh! My opinion on demons of ZG universe: So far we've seen very basic demons, all seeming to hail from the same region of whatever hellish dimension they reside in. The tattoo-stripe things, the three eyes (excepting Lord Incubus, of course, Satan rest his evil soul) and the general horned nastiness suggests to me that while they're all related, there's probably every manner of nasty out there waiting to be introduced. Joe simply showcases the Oorth demons because they're his specialty, they're awesome, and they seem to be the evil modus operandi of choice in the comic's small world.

Consider Pooka Zin and Mary Shrieks (two of my FAVORITE characters despite their short cameos). The two of them could very well be demons--although my personal opinion is that they are malevolent fey of some kind. Well, the point is that there are all sorts of unpleasant, people-hating/people-eating critters in Zebra Girl's world. We've only seen a small portion of what's out there. And while Sandra's powers are expansive, she's restricted to her species' limits on powers--for instance, she can't control water or anything. But fire, smoke, shadow, and reality itself are all easily malleable for her. (Although it should be noted that she provides frequent exceptions to the "standard" demon rules. I see her as very similar to Hellboy in this respect: because she is part human, she can wield strengths that no human or demon could ever achieve.)
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby BrianJ on Thu May 14, 2009 4:49 pm

So far as I have understood ZG's demons, they do NOT originate from the Earth. Heck, they don't even originate from this plane of existence. In this manner, they are different from the idea of the Japanese youkai that Vole mentioned, as those creatures used to be living humans, but then got themselves killed and morphed into these other things.

As far as I can tell, all demons in ZG started off as demons (except Sandra), will always be demons (except Sandra, we can hope some day), and come from a demony world/dimension (such as Oorth, except Sandra). They show up here ("here" meaning the ZG "Earth") because they were summoned, and so were magically granted limited access to trans-dimensionally shift through a rift in the fabric of reality, or whatever (except Sandra).

Hmm. I'm Noting a lot of "except Sandra"'s up there. That's probably why she is of such interest to the other-dimensional and magically-high-powered beings roaming around: she IS the exception. She's a demon who did NOT originate from a demonic realm, who was NOT transported to Earth (originally. There was the time Sam had to drag her back to Earth from between realms, but you know what I mean). She was human, she is demon, and therefore has a foot (er, hoof) in both realms. It's very possible (and I think even hinted at a bit) that she could freely move between the realms if she wanted to, without summonings, banishments, or dimensional splicings of cemeteries - something the other demons seem to not have the ability to do, even higher powered Arch-Demons. She is very unique in this respect, and I'm sure several critters would REALLY like to study her to find out how she can manage that trick. The concept of this potential might even have been what originally brought Sandra to Chalk's attention (of course I'd get around to speculating on Chalk in here. I always come back to speculating about Chalk).

As for Mary Shrieks and Pookah Zin, I'm not sure WHAT to classify them as, except very cool and extremely scary :evil:. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't rate a "demon" name tag. One thing of note, at least we know Zin is not actually alive ("...as I live and breathe, or as I don't do either"). They seem to travel around quite a bit, roaming the Earth, causing terror and perhaps some havoc. They might have originated from here. They might have originally been alive on Earth. Then again, they might not. Who knows (besides THE SHADOW and Joe)?...
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby vole-in-hand on Thu May 14, 2009 11:04 pm

BrianJ wrote:So far as I have understood ZG's demons, they do NOT originate from the Earth. Heck, they don't even originate from this plane of existence. In this manner, they are different from the idea of the Japanese youkai that Vole mentioned, as those creatures used to be living humans, but then got themselves killed and morphed into these other things.

As for Mary Shrieks and Pookah Zin, I'm not sure WHAT to classify them as, except very cool and extremely scary :evil:. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't rate a "demon" name tag. One thing of note, at least we know Zin is not actually alive ("...as I live and breathe, or as I don't do either"). They seem to travel around quite a bit, roaming the Earth, causing terror and perhaps some havoc. They might have originated from here. They might have originally been alive on Earth. Then again, they might not. Who knows (besides THE SHADOW and Joe)?...


I think I'm with you on this one; most of the creatures in the story have a very Earthy flavor to them, while the stripey types are clearly delegated to their own dimension. This explains how they can effectively break most rules of reality without effort. But... then there's the whole alternate worlds thing. Sam isn't as alien to Earth as Sandra is, but what is it that makes Hell so special? Or what looks like Hell.

BrianJ wrote:(of course I'd get around to speculating on Chalk in here. I always come back to speculating about Chalk).


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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Omeg@ on Mon May 18, 2009 1:54 am

MrBigMr wrote:
Omeg@ wrote:SDT heh is based on discussion how science and magic might work in Zebraverse.
I'm guessing that this thread is more about general non-science stuff, which makes it sort of a sister thread to SDT.

Did you even read what you wrote? Magic is more scientific than faith? After we've talked about pretty much any subject possible in the SDT thread, suddenly faith is not "scientific" enough, not like magic.

Well, I was trying to make room for this thread, but if you really want to, I'll go get my shovel and dig that thread up :)



BrianJ wrote:As far as I can tell, all demons in ZG started off as demons (except Sandra), will always be demons (except Sandra, we can hope some day), and come from a demony world/dimension (such as Oorth, except Sandra). They show up here ("here" meaning the ZG "Earth") because they were summoned, and so were magically granted limited access to trans-dimensionally shift through a rift in the fabric of reality, or whatever (except Sandra).

That's a pretty big assumtion there. The only two demon births that we've seen (opposed to zero) have been from human to demon. What if all the demons are born that way?
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby BrianJ on Mon May 18, 2009 12:46 pm

Omeg@ wrote:That's a pretty big assumtion there. The only two demon births that we've seen (opposed to zero) have been from human to demon. What if all the demons are born that way?

Hmm. Good point. It could very well be that demons were once humans, then went through some sort of process to be transformed into demons, then were brought back to the demonic realm. There is no other evidence for the system of demon creation except for these two events in the comic. We have no information that demons actually procreate in any sense as we understand the ("bow-chika-bow-bow") act.

However (counter-point), such a strange and bizarre set of circumstances revolved around both of these changes as to not be readily repeatable to create the size and breadth of the demon species.

In the case of Sandra, it required a random blast of magic. RANDOM, which means it could very well have vaporized her or otherwise killed her in a billion different horrifying ways instead of transforming her, or could have transformed her into a trillion other different creatures/species just as readily as it would have a demon. It was an all-out fluke, a one-time chance occurrence that turned her into a demon. If a billion magic tomes were later slammed a billion times each, there is every possibility that the effect of turning someone into a demon would never have been repeated.

In the case of Demonshoulders, that required a demonic intervention (curse) earlier in his life (which could lead to "chicken-and-egg" debates), then the super-saturation of mystic energies via witch funnels in the cemetery, then the introduction of a near-death experience from fighting another demon (more "egg-and-chicken" debates) in that super-charged environment, which combined to triggered his transformation.

These seem like such bizarre sets of circumstances that they would not readily lead to the sheer number of demons that is hinted at in the alternate universe.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Omeg@ on Mon May 18, 2009 9:51 pm

However (counter-point), such a strange and bizarre set of circumstances revolved around both of these changes as to not be readily repeatable to create the size and breadth of the demon species.

In the case of Sandra, it required a random blast of magic. RANDOM, which means it could very well have vaporized her or otherwise killed her in a billion different horrifying ways instead of transforming her, or could have transformed her into a trillion other different creatures/species just as readily as it would have a demon. It was an all-out fluke, a one-time chance occurrence that turned her into a demon. If a billion magic tomes were later slammed a billion times each, there is every possibility that the effect of turning someone into a demon would never have been repeated.


Again it feels like you're jumping into conclusions too soon. Trillion other different creatures? Here's a counter theory: What if we all have a some sort of demon inside us? The magic burst just brought Sandra's to the surface. Her mind just took a bit longer to cope with the sudden transformation?
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby BrianJ on Tue May 19, 2009 2:51 pm

Omeg@ wrote:Again it feels like you're jumping into conclusions too soon. Trillion other different creatures? Here's a counter theory: What if we all have a some sort of demon inside us? The magic burst just brought Sandra's to the surface. Her mind just took a bit longer to cope with the sudden transformation?

My point is that the "random" magic burst from slamming the tome had a "random" magic effect. If the result from slamming the tome would only be to bring whatever you were deep down inside to the surface, then the effect is, by definition, no longer random.

Slamming the tome could have done anything. It could have turned Crystal into a gerbil. It could have painted all the walls of the house chartreuse. It could have caused everyone's clothing to suddenly jump 5 feet to the right of the occupant. It could have popped them all back in time. It could have brought a black hole into the living room and ended the world. Anything. To rely on such an extremely random occurrence as tome slamming for the creation or proliferation of a species would seem to lead rather quickly to that species extinction.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Skullduggerous on Tue May 19, 2009 3:27 pm

Slamming the tome could have done anything. It could have turned Crystal into a gerbil. It could have painted all the walls of the house chartreuse. It could have caused everyone's clothing to suddenly jump 5 feet to the right of the occupant. It could have popped them all back in time. It could have brought a black hole into the living room and ended the world. Anything.


But it DIDN'T.

Originally, the transformation occurred for the purposes of storytelling. Without a Zebra Girl, there wouldn't be a Zebra Girl, so to speak. But while we're debating Tomie's effects on our heroine (villainess?) we might as well touch upon the matter of demon origins as well.

Like the tome-slamming-induced transformation, the demons in ZG are there for the purposes of telling the story. At least at first. But I find it fascinating that we've come this far and not touched once--not once--on exactly what a demon is. (At least not in the comic. I'm sure you guys have hacked that question to pieces, but why not give it another shot?)

This is intrinsic to understanding where they come from. We know they're evil--but good and evil can be pretty relative. So what the heck are they? Are they spirits of human malevolence, given shape in some other realm? Are they Biblical torturers, created by God to punish sinners in Hell? Have they always existed, ancient beings of a forgotten origin, just waiting for an opportunity to wreak havoc in the mortal realm?

In all likelihood we'll never know. But I've given some thought to the origins of demons in other universes (read: D&D) and I've decided one excellent theory: that they are simply the embodied spirits humans that have attained a status of evil beyond that which is required to enter Hell.

Confused? Allow me to explain. A human soul goes to Hell for its evils, is punished (as befitting the usual "hell" mythos) by demons, and after millennia, still has not repented wholly for its crimes. Either that, or the soul was simply so evil that it is worthy of ascension to demon status. In either case, the evil soul then becomes a demon (most likely driven to hateful madness by centuries in Hell, on TOP of being evil in the first place.) Thus the demon origin point is established.

Although there are loopholes in this "cycle," I've come to think it's one of the better demon origin stories. It even works on the most basic of original Biblical and/or historic levels. For example, Cain (or his anthropoligical equivalent) kills his brother (or commits some similar evil act.) He then goes to Hell, which is empty because no one evil has died yet. But of course it's Hell, so it's full of FIRE. Cain burns (for however long, it seems time is relative in Hell) until a new evil soul shows up. Out of spite and hate, he tortures the soul, and a cycle is born.

Whaddya think?
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby vole-in-hand on Tue May 19, 2009 9:34 pm

Skullduggerous wrote:I've given some thought to the origins of demons in other universes (read: D&D) and I've decided one excellent theory: that they are simply the embodied spirits humans that have attained a status of evil beyond that which is required to enter Hell.


You may recall that what makes Sandra special is that she has a human soul. How could someone both be a soul and have a soul? Anyway I don't think this is the kind of the Hell that people usually go to, unless they're explorers like Tool.

Maybe, instead, in antiquity when they said that sinners "go to Hell" they actually knew what they were talking about (in continuity of course). Jack used the Tome to summon a demon with little effort, suggesting that at least the ancient Sumerians had regular dealings with the sort.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby MrBigMr on Wed May 20, 2009 3:13 am

BrianJ wrote:Slamming the tome could have done anything. It could have turned Crystal into a gerbil. It could have painted all the walls of the house chartreuse. It could have caused everyone's clothing to suddenly jump 5 feet to the right of the occupant. It could have popped them all back in time. It could have brought a black hole into the living room and ended the world. Anything.

Image

Skullduggerous wrote:Originally, the transformation occurred for the purposes of storytelling. Without a Zebra Girl, there wouldn't be a Zebra Girl, so to speak. But while we're debating Tomie's effects on our heroine (villainess?) we might as well touch upon the matter of demon origins as well.

Like the tome-slamming-induced transformation, the demons in ZG are there for the purposes of telling the story. At least at first.

Ok, now we're venturing out of the story, even beyond the readers and judging it from there? This is like "story within a story" sort of thing, right? So instead of "Where do demons come from in the ZG universe?" We should ask "Joe, why demons in the first place?" Why, Joe, why? Why do you hate Sandra so much to put her through all this?" If you zoom close enough, you can see the pain and desperation in her eyes as she's dragged on the invisible puppet strings to the will of a madman with a pen.

Joe is like a bunny version of D.D. Drosselmeyer from Princess Tutu. Just like Drosselmeyer, he makes little speeches here and there, commeting on the progres of the story and its events, though so far Joe hasn't interacted with the story personally to nudge it in the right direction, where as Drosselmeyer does creep up when needed, and uses Edel literally as his puppet to put a spin in the dragging wheels.

In all likelihood we'll never know. But I've given some thought to the origins of demons in other universes (read: D&D) and I've decided one excellent theory: that they are simply the embodied spirits humans that have attained a status of evil beyond that which is required to enter Hell.

In the Warhammer universe daemons are fragments of the gods of Chaos, who, along with some "free" daemons, are manifestations of the emotions of sentient creatures of the material plane. So while they're "evil", they also incorporate "good" feelings, but those aspects are not as prominent (anymore) in the game.

For one, Khorne the blood god might be the god of anger and slaughter, but - at least in ye olden days - incorporated honor as well, and he frowned upon killing defenseless people. Nurgle might be regarded as the god of death, though he's very much pro-life and creates new life all the time. Slaanesh incorporates both lust and decadence, but as the author of Liber Chaotica told me, he/she/it also feeds on fluffy feelings as well. And then there's Tzeentch, the great schemer. Change is always good, no? And he himself has said that he loves a traitor, even if he himself is betrayed, because nothing shakes things up as good as a traitor.

The nice touch is that "good" things are governed by the same rules as "evil" ones. Avatar of Khaine, a large iron statue animated by a fragment of the Eldar god of war, is basically the same as a statue animated by a daemon, and in fact can be affected by items affecting daemons (such as daemon hammers and other anti-daemon weapons). And Living Saints are like Daemon Princes, but instead of drawing their power from the gods of Chaos, they get their feathery wings and inhuman abilities from the Immortal Emperor.

Although there are loopholes in this "cycle," I've come to think it's one of the better demon origin stories. It even works on the most basic of original Biblical and/or historic levels. For example, Cain (or his anthropoligical equivalent) kills his brother (or commits some similar evil act.) He then goes to Hell, which is empty because no one evil has died yet. But of course it's Hell, so it's full of FIRE. Cain burns (for however long, it seems time is relative in Hell) until a new evil soul shows up. Out of spite and hate, he tortures the soul, and a cycle is born.

Cain didn't go to Hell. God put Cain under a curse. Cain was to be a restless wanderer on the earth. The ground would no longer yield any crops for him. Cain moved to the land of Nod (Meaning "to wander" in Hebrew, if I'm not mistaken. In other words, he was forced to wander forever.), to the east of Eden. He built a city which he named after his son, Enoch.

And then, after few millennia, he changed his name to Kane, established the Botherhood of Nod, advised Stalin and plotted world domination.

Seriously, that's one of the sub-plots of the Command & Conquer series, the fact (or hint) that Kane is in fact Cain. In Renegade the player comes across an ancient, simple tomb in the Middle East, of which Kane says "Watch your step, you are stomping on holy ground. This is the tomb of my brother." (or something to that effect) and at the same time tells the player it was the site of the original Temple of Nod. On the wall there is a stone carving of a figure stabbing another figure, and the names "Cain" and "Abel" written in Hebrew.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby BrianJ on Wed May 20, 2009 11:02 am

The biblical demons are fallen angels. Angels are created beings who have existed since before the concept of time (meaning they have always been there). It is a misguided myth that humans who die and go to heaven become Angels, complete with fluffy wings and halos sitting around on clouds strumming harps. We don't. The angels are already there, and will always be there. No more angels are created, and no angel ever dies or ceases to exist. Their number is set, and there are more than can be counted. Before time began, about a third of them thummed their noses at God and followed one of their own (Lucifer, highest of the Angels) who wanted God's position. They failed, and were cast out of God's presence, and became demons.

In other cultures, demons are physical manifestations of pure evil emotions, saturated in an area until it becomes sentient. Many cultures have the concept of bad people becoming even badder demons.
A human soul goes to Hell for its evils, is punished (as befitting the usual "hell" mythos) by demons, and after millennia, still has not repented wholly for its crimes. Either that, or the soul was simply so evil that it is worthy of ascension to demon status. In either case, the evil soul then becomes a demon (most likely driven to hateful madness by centuries in Hell, on TOP of being evil in the first place.) Thus the demon origin point is established.
I understand this concept, but it doesn't make much sense: If you are bad, you are punished by torture. But if you are REALLY bad, you are rewarded by becoming a powerful demon? :okthen:

Man, I haven't played C&C for a while, but I remember that scene :) .The story of Cain and Abel has also been tied to the origins of vampires, postulating that the curse and mark that was placed on Cain was vampirism, the whole "Legacy of Cain" thing. I had a very interesting theory that runs along that line of thought that I'm surprised has not been used in stories or games before, dealing the Enoch. I might tell you guys about it some time...

In the ZG universe, demons seem to be just one of many different groups of beings that exist somewhere out there in the dimensions, who happen to thrive on the fear of other beings and like/need to feed on the life forces of others, which is an act that we (the prey) classify as "evil".
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby vole-in-hand on Wed May 20, 2009 11:47 pm

BrianJ wrote:The story of Cain and Abel has also been tied to the origins of vampires


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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby MrBigMr on Thu May 21, 2009 5:00 am

BrianJ wrote:The biblical demons are fallen angels. Angels are created beings who have existed since before the concept of time (meaning they have always been there).

In the most common view, yes. But there are, especially in the older, pre-Christian texts, references that would suggest that not all spirits are angels and daemons, that there's a whole library of things, instead of the same old God and Devil dualism, which to me is a little too small minded and doesn't explain everything that was before Jewism and Christianity.

A little like The Exorcist. It wasn't the Devil they were driving out, but Pazuzu, an Assyrian and Babylonian deity. In other words, the priests were using the power of Christ not to fight a demon or the Devil, but a deity of another religion altogether. It's like if Buddha sucker punched Kali's head clean off, or something.

No more angels are created, and no angel ever dies or ceases to exist.

Then how can God or the Devil ever win, when neither can really eradicate each others armies? Maybe it's like in Sacrifice, where you have to capture enemies and format their souls to use them on your side? Capture a demon and bring it to God, and all its sins will be forgiven and it'll become an angel, or bring an angel to the Devil, and it'll be corrupted and turned into a demon. Mix it with different classes of angels and daemons, who all have their own abilities, alternating between their allingment, so that a strong anti-demon angel won't turn into a strong anti-angel demon, but maybe get the ability to seed corruption in good with the cost of its combat abilities, etc.?

Of course, you could also choose the type of a deity you were using. Do you play as the Old Testament vengeful God, or the new age down to earth hippy liberal deuche? Or are you the child eating goat headed Devil, or the one that wears Prada? One has more combat strenght, but the other one is better at scheming. The new age hippy liberal deuche God also gets to use His son on the battlefield to boost the troops, and has the ability to gather undivided mortals to his aide to form a retinue. The Devil can counter this for the price of 40 credits. The Devil is always present on the board in both forms.

Before time began, about a third of them thummed their noses at God and followed one of their own (Lucifer, highest of the Angels) who wanted God's position. They failed, and were cast out of God's presence, and became demons.

Another theory from the 6th century is that it was because they mated with mortal women and created a whole new race of creatures, the Nephilim (such as Goliath), which angered God.

In other cultures, demons are physical manifestations of pure evil emotions, saturated in an area until it becomes sentient. Many cultures have the concept of bad people becoming even badder demons.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
-Ephesians 6:12

Even the Bible know that the struggle against evil is a spiritual one.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby Skullduggerous on Thu May 21, 2009 4:22 pm

It's like if Buddha sucker punched Kali's head clean off, or something.


That sounds freaking awesome.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby BrianJ on Fri May 22, 2009 10:09 am

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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby ltcdruphs10 on Sun May 30, 2010 3:04 pm

It would seem to me that in the end we are all just speculating at something quite none of us will really understand until we die (or there's a giant explosion of understanding brought about by something or other). But to that end, giving educated guesses can't hurt.

Anyway, it could be that the multi universe theory that Joe has employed (that with the Demon, Cartoon Character, and Human realms being just a few), allows for an infinite amount of realms and universes for all manner of being to be created.

I shall now posit:

It could be that the demons are the offspring or runoff from some super evil deity, such as a god of say, Chaos. That this one god, or mayhaps more, owns or controls the Demon realm, with it's offspring continually spawning from it and adding to the cramped existence. That could be why the demons want to leave the realm, such cramped conditions, as well as why they want to go to somewhere with living life, to add Chaos to the mix. It could also be that although endowed with certain abilities and strengths, they might be unable to, using an Organized fashion, crossover to those realms. They would have to rely upon outside sources to get in, because the Chaos embodied in themselves prevents any sort of cohesive effort, and only leads to more chaos and destruction. (think, if you can't drive a car in a straight line, you need someone else to drive for you).

And that's my interpretation. Feel free to nitpick and analyze.
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Re: Good, Evil, God, Heaven and Hell, and Zebra Girl.

Postby dragondeathlord on Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:50 pm

I have my own guess about Zebra Girl.Only Joe knows the real truth but hear goes.
I think She is not Random at all but Jack's opposite. Joe already created in his universe concept of Destiny and free will and Karma.
And the whole Point of Destiny and free will and Karma is there is no Random. Her form might be but not it's purpose.(she could of been a angel or a Vampire)
The word that Sandra lives in is having it's magic restored and Jack was one of the first of newly created Wizards. Just as Sandra was the first of newly created Magic creatures.
Her purpose is to fight Jack.
He's the action she's the reaction. Yin and Yang. Wizard created = Monster created.

I think its not about Good vs Evil.

But Free Will and Chaos vs Destiny and Order.

A Angel would worked just as well as would a Vampire or in this case a Demon. The Magic Effect was Random but selective (None human and dangerous.)

She serves Chaos and fight Jack who seeks Order.
Both are restoring magic to the world.
Jack with nice Bunnys and free magic park show.Helping people to slowly believe and Sandra By flying though town Howling and scaring People silly.

Both are doing the same thing and making each other more powerful by fighting.
Both Serve Ultimately the Returning Magic.

So here my Guess .. And it's Just a Guess.. What if Sandra and Jack are the source of the returning Magic.
Jacks way to powerful for his age as is Sandra who Joe kind of hinted might well be a Arch Demon or more.
What if they are it's Avatars?
Jack the White orderly Magic and Sandra The Dark Chaotic Magic Or Maybe Jacks Human Magic and Sandra's the Inhuman/monstrous ?

I mean what would Jack of become if he did not have his Guilt driving him? And If he had Managed to Master Magic with out Guilt would he of screwed up the world with his power level with out Sandra to keep him both humble and busy?


Well Joe will Get around to telling us sooner or later, I hope.
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