Non-sexual Nudity: A What-If Scenario

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Non-sexual Nudity: A What-If Scenario

Postby Nocturn on Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:46 pm

I will be frank here: I post this to challenge ideas I believe I saw here. On that note, I work on the assumption that those ideas are held by the majority of this forum; if that isn't the case, you can point it out and let the topic die. Furthermore, I am not going to make any presented what-ifs and woulds a reality.

And with that bit of clarifying out of the way, the topic at hand:

Many of you seem to believe that nudity itself is not sexual, but that people's ideas of it make it sexual. I am quite certain that at least Dan Shive thinks so. Now this itself is a perfectly valid belief, and I myself like to think so as well, so please don't think this is just another Angry Feminist Rant.

Now, supposing the clear majority of this board shares the mindset, and since each separate board on Keenforums follows its own rules of approtiate content (I never found any global rules for Keenforums...), wouldn't I, in theory, be allowed to post pictures of me in the nude? Mind, just like a normal picture, only sans clothes, so nothing pornographic. Like, imagine we had a Bunny Picture Thread here (might be a nice idea, no?), so it wouldn't be something completely random, either.

So, yeah. Agree, disagree, think about it and speak your mind or remain silent. Just please take this topic as it is and don't let yourself be too influenced in your thinking about the things I said in anger.
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Postby Kalga on Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:49 pm

No. Not here. Dan has rules against it. Go to another forum that allows it.
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:55 pm

Kalga wrote:No. Not here. Dan has rules against it. Go to another forum that allows it.
1) She's not actually considering posting it, it's a thought exercise.

2) There is only a ban against "things not in the comic", and we have seen nudity in the comic...although there have been very few "naughty bits" shown...and those were fur-covered.

So I suppose you'd be limited to posting provocative photos, Noxy.
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:02 pm

This is sort of an open ended question. I mean, Damien murdered hundreds of people, does that mean we can do it too? There's sort of a line between what can be done in reality and what can be done in fantasy, you realize...
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:03 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:This is sort of an open ended question. I mean, Damien murdered hundreds of people, does that mean we can do it too? There's sort of a line between what can be done in reality and what can be done in fantasy, you realize...
...actually, it's more asking if one could post a fanfic of themselves murdering hundreds of people...


Also, minus several thousand points for putting nudity and murder on the same level.
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Postby Circe on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:16 pm

Kalga wrote:No. Not here. Dan has rules against it. Go to another forum that allows it.


While true this does not answer the question. The issue being raised is simply whether or not nudity is sexual. If it is not (as some have proclaimed) then why can't nude pictures be posted here? After all, it's not sexual, right?

The problem is that of course it's sexual. Anyone who tells you different is selling something -- either passes to a nude beach or a feminist agenda. The former just wants to make money, the latter wants to desexualize everyone because they believe that will make us equal. Oh joy, women can be just like men...what nonsense.

Men and women are different. Physically, mentally, and spiritually. I won't bother going through the list of differences -- if you haven't figured them out by now you must not have hit puberty yet. That is not to say that one is better than the other -- but the differences do exist and personally I'm very happy they do.

Men, we're often told, are visually stimulated, which is why men enjoy porn more than women, who are supposed to be more stimulated by more subtle things. Whatever. Guess what? Girls look at guys. A lot. Not as much as guys look at girls, but to pretend that girls do not get a thrill out of looking at guys is simply ridiculous.

So. Men and women both are visually stimulated. Seeing naked people is therefore stimulating to people in general and definitely a sexual thing.

Society in general has decided that viewing sexually stimulating things in public is taboo. Whether you agree with that or not is another question, but pretending that people are not turned on by seeing each other naked is silly.
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Postby Kalga on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:22 pm

I agree. It is normally sexual, but, some people aren't regularly nude for sexual reasons....

It all depends on the person......
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:34 pm

Tricia wrote:...actually, it's more asking if one could post a fanfic of themselves murdering hundreds of people...


Is she going to describe herself being nude?

...in detail?
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Postby Chaos Priest on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:37 pm

While the photo itself wouldn't be sexual many on this forum would likely take it to be so, no matter what your intentions were when taking it. The problem is with culture. I am going to venture a guess and say that most of us here were raised in a culture where nudity is taboo and typically with adults seen in sexual situations. While we have made some room for artistic nudes in things like ancient sculptures, it is far more difficult to get it accepted now. The response to a naked photo would probably be something along the lines of "OMG Porn!" (I admit that would probably be my first response too). Then there would be a massive reaction, with several members reporting the post (while others do, um, other things...) This is not to say that this is the way it should be, but sadly that is the way it is. The administrators would then likely delete the post, and likely ban you as the poster, either because they also find the photo objectionable or because an angry group flooding their inboxes and email accounts gets tiring very quickly. There could be nothing sexual about any of it, but sadly often it is not the intent of somebody that people care about, but how others react to it.

I'm reminded of an incident mentioned in a lecture I had in a class last week on censorship that illustrates just how little you can get away with sometimes in the way of nudity in this country. There was a children's author who wrote a book (and no, I can't remember the name of either, and I didn't think to write it in my notes for some reason) about a toddler dreaming he was searching for a present for his mommy's birthday in a pastry shop he had visited earlier that day. In the dream the toddler was naked, and at one point when an illustration showed him sliding down to an assembly line of cakes you could see the young boy's penis. A librarian who saw this decided to preemptively stem off the tide of parent protests by taking some whiteout and painting a diaper on him. It seems like a little thing, but it was still censorship over something that might have been seen as inappropriate (even though you'd have to be pretty %@$&#! sick to see that as sexual). Even with something as innocent as that, it just shows that a lot of times in the US at least you can't get away with nothing.

And just in case you were curious, the librarian got into trouble for that and ended up having to replace the book.
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Postby azrael_2001 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:39 pm

I am personally of the opinion "meh. knock yourself out" but I don't run this board.

Also, Circe, I think you are wrong. First time that's happened I assure you.

The idea that people will only tell you that nudity isn't sexual are selling you something (tickets or an idea) is horribly cynical. Have you ever spent an extended period of time around people who aren't naked, but are merely not wearing any clothes? Not drawing attention to it or doing anything out of the ordinary, just wandering about doing whatever, except nude? Nothing sexual there at all, unless someone brings it with them.

But then I guess I'm spoiled by the fact that no-one has ever tried to sell me a ticket to a nude beach because we don't have laws that would require the existence of such a permanent facility, with associated upkeep costs, in order for people not to get arrested for taking off their clothes.

Also, for some reason, I'm faintly amused by the idea that "nudity=/=sexy" is a feminist ideal, though I can't really say why.
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Postby Vene on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:41 pm

Circe wrote:
Kalga wrote:No. Not here. Dan has rules against it. Go to another forum that allows it.


While true this does not answer the question. The issue being raised is simply whether or not nudity is sexual. If it is not (as some have proclaimed) then why can't nude pictures be posted here? After all, it's not sexual, right?

The problem is that of course it's sexual. Anyone who tells you different is selling something -- either passes to a nude beach or a feminist agenda. The former just wants to make money, the latter wants to desexualize everyone because they believe that will make us equal. Oh joy, women can be just like men...what nonsense.

Men and women are different. Physically, mentally, and spiritually. I won't bother going through the list of differences -- if you haven't figured them out by now you must not have hit puberty yet. That is not to say that one is better than the other -- but the differences do exist and personally I'm very happy they do.

Men, we're often told, are visually stimulated, which is why men enjoy porn more than women, who are supposed to be more stimulated by more subtle things. Whatever. Guess what? Girls look at guys. A lot. Not as much as guys look at girls, but to pretend that girls do not get a thrill out of looking at guys is simply ridiculous.

So. Men and women both are visually stimulated. Seeing naked people is therefore stimulating to people in general and definitely a sexual thing.

Society in general has decided that viewing sexually stimulating things in public is taboo. Whether you agree with that or not is another question, but pretending that people are not turned on by seeing each other naked is silly.


That is entirely true, but what is fixated on may change. I remember reading something about Nuns covering their foreheads because it was considered the most attractive part of the female body (though it could be false). But as a more verifiable example look at clothing trends. What is considered immodest now is very different than what was in the Victorian age. Oh and as a heterosexual male absence of clothing may make the attraction easier, but that doesn't mean I won't have the same thoughts as a clothed woman so an attractive woman putting a picture of herself on the internet can be considered sexual in the sense I find myself attracted to her. So it's not just the nudity that's sexual, it's that humans are sexual beings (with the exception of asexuals of course).
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:45 pm

azrael_2001 wrote:Have you ever spent an extended period of time around people who aren't naked, but are merely not wearing any clothes?
...wait, what?
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Postby azrael_2001 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:48 pm

Tricia wrote:
azrael_2001 wrote:Have you ever spent an extended period of time around people who aren't naked, but are merely not wearing any clothes?
...wait, what?
A simple question of attitude.
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:52 pm

It's really a conundrum. See, if you really believe that nudity can be nonsexual, then a person can be unclothed without being nude. You'd see them as just normal and wouldn't have a reaction either way, just as you don't usually have a reaction to someone normally clothed walking past you on a sidewalk.
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:04 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:It's really a conundrum. See, if you really believe that nudity can be nonsexual, then a person can be unclothed without being nude. You'd see them as just normal and wouldn't have a reaction either way, just as you don't usually have a reaction to someone normally clothed walking past you on a sidewalk.
...er...do you actually know what the words "nude" or "naked" mean?
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:10 pm

Tricia wrote:...er...do you actually know what the words "nude" or "naked" mean?


Are you naked right now? Technically we're always naked, it's just that when you're clothed, you're covering up parts of your body. So when I'm wearing clothes, people don't tend to recognize the fact that I'm naked. Which is logic you can apply to anyone, when you're clothed you're just covered well, but it's not like you step out of your own body when you leave the house. So, then, apply that logic to being nude. If I'm nude, and you don't recognize it as such, then am I really nude?
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:12 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:
Tricia wrote:...er...do you actually know what the words "nude" or "naked" mean?


Are you naked right now? Technically we're always naked, it's just that when you're clothed, you're covering up parts of your body. So when I'm wearing clothes, people don't tend to recognize the fact that I'm naked. Which is logic you can apply to anyone, when you're clothed you're just covered well, but it's not like you step out of your own body when you leave the house. So, then, apply that logic to being nude. If I'm nude, and you don't recognize it as such, then am I really nude?
...so that's a no.
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:16 pm

Tricia wrote:...so that's a no.


You don't have to be condescending about it, you know.
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:23 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:
Tricia wrote:...so that's a no.


You don't have to be condescending about it, you know.
heh. That's not condescending.

For the record, no, I am not naked right now. Naked = without clothes. That's how...well, pretty much everyone defines it.

((Well, if we're not talking about other kinda of naked, such as "emotionally naked", but for the purposes of this discussion, that's how people define it.))
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Postby azrael_2001 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:24 pm

Tricia wrote:...er...do you actually know what the words "nude" or "naked" mean?
No, but the free dictionary does:
Nude:
adj. nud
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Postby Jared on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:25 pm

While I disagree that you can have all your clothes off but not be nude that's purley semantics. The situation they describe does occur with semi regularity. In nudist (see nude-ist)colonies (the legit ones) and beaches their getting on with normal buisness without clothes is the whole point. For some people it is quite relaxing.
To pose a new question though, on the opposite side of the coin would it be all right to post highly sexual but fully clothed pictures?* If its the nudity that makes the non sexual pictures inappropriate, would clothes make it appropriate no matter what? Also how many clothes? Underwear would certainly be out of bounds, but swimming gear? Maybe not, and swimming gear potentially covers more than undies.

*( Note: This is still hypothetical, I have no intention of doing this)
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:27 pm

Tricia wrote:For the record, no, I am not naked right now. Naked = without clothes. That's how...well, pretty much everyone defines it.


So, if all you have on is a barrel or a box, which covers everything up, are you still naked?
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:32 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:
Tricia wrote:For the record, no, I am not naked right now. Naked = without clothes. That's how...well, pretty much everyone defines it.


So, if all you have on is a barrel or a box, which covers everything up, are you still naked?
If it covers everything up, then no I'm not.

...though, either would have a hard time actually covering everything up well.
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Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:41 pm

Tricia wrote:If it covers everything up, then no I'm not.

...though, either would have a hard time actually covering everything up well.


Okay! Well, then expand on that. If you're covered, then you're not naked. What about, if you were taking a shower? Are you naked then? No one is around, and ( hopefully ) no one is looking at you, so technically you're covered, right?
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Postby Tricia on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:43 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:
Tricia wrote:If it covers everything up, then no I'm not.

...though, either would have a hard time actually covering everything up well.


Okay! Well, then expand on that. If you're covered, then you're not naked. What about, if you were taking a shower? Are you naked then? No one is around, and ( hopefully ) no one is looking at you, so technically you're covered, right?
...I don't know about you, but I tend to shower naked.

It's hard to get clean if you're not.

...and why am I even discussing this?
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