[STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Redattack34 on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:40 am

Speaking as a CompSci student, I'd like to point out that my area of expertise is full of instances of people modifying and improving on work done by others.

It's the entire idea behind Open Source programming, Wikipedia relies on it, and there wouldn't be a Counter Strike or Team Fortress 2 is nobody had tried to modify or improve on Half Life. Regarding that last one, many a game has seen a great success with allowing the users to modify and improve on it; Half-Life is just one example.

If I had written some code and some guy emailed me saying "Here's a better way to do it" I'd probably be quite grateful. Assuming he was right, that is.

On the other hand, as has been pointed out, EGS (or at least the production thereof) is an intensely personal and private thing for Dan, whereas programmers pretty much have to work in groups if they want to do anything big in a reasonable time, so I can see how it might be different.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:42 am

I bet Half-Life was pretty damn personal for everyone at Valve.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Raging Mouse on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:45 am

Illusionist wrote:
Raging Mouse wrote:That remix most likely pays royalties to whoever has the rights to Moonlight Shadow. It is also likely that the remixer had to ask permission before so much as releasing a five-second part of it.


See my post. Remix.nin.


Congratulations, you found an example where someone feels it all right to remix their songs. However, I recommend you don't try calling Trent Reznor if you ever try remixing, say, a Metallica song and releasing it.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:48 am

I'm pretty sure Ministry were OK with it.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Redattack34 on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:49 am

Illusionist wrote:I bet Half-Life was pretty damn personal for everyone at Valve.

I was just trying to point out that people making uninvited improvements can be a good thing and is extremely common. Besides, who knows? Game developers can get somewhat intense about their creations, though possibly not as much as Dan.

"If I see farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants" - Isaac Newton.

I do so hate it when people try to nitpick the examples rather than arguing the points presented, and that seems to happen a lot around here. You also seem to have skipped a sentence. Please read the entire post before responding.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:50 am

"A chef has tons of assistants?" Yeesh. I thought I was going overboard with trying to make it clear who the "someone" was, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. In my example, "someone" is not an assistant, not an employee, not anyone who is welcome in your kitchen. They may or may not have their own cooking talent, but that doesn't mean they're supposed to be back there.

The teacher is also not a valid example. You're in a class. The teacher is not only supposed to do that sort of thing, it's a critique. I'm not talking about critiques, and I'm not talking about anyone who is supposed to do such things. Something similar I would consider valid: A fellow student taking your song immediately after you've finished and presented it, doing their own version, and doing so on multiple occasions.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:51 am

Redattack34 wrote:
Illusionist wrote:I bet Half-Life was pretty damn personal for everyone at Valve.

I was just trying to point out that people making uninvited improvements can be a good thing and is extremely common. Besides, who knows? Game developers can get somewhat intense about their creations, though possibly not as much as Dan.

"If I see farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants" - Isaac Newton.

I do so hate it when people try to nitpick the examples rather than arguing the points presented, and that seems to happen a lot around here. You also seem to have skipped a sentence. Please read the entire post before responding.

I agree with you, man. I love the colour comics. I was just pointing out that your example was better than you thought.

And Dan, of course the teacher is a valid example. Surely you learn from your audience? Oh, and I'm not in a class. 1-on-1 lessons.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:58 am

It is NOT a valid argument for what I'm talking about! How specific do I have to get about what I'm talking about not being about critiques? I am VERY SPECIFICALLY referring to people frequently coloring my comics on their own, without my consent and in spite of my objections, very soon after I post them. How the hell is you voluntarily meeting with a teacher and being given a critique by the very person who is supposed to give you criticism relevant?
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:00 am

Because the audience is your teacher. I get exactly what you're saying, now how about you get what we're saying? You challenged us to find examples of people liking other people altering their work. We did. Acknowledge it.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby eman on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:05 am

Dan, you shouldn't let the forum's opinions bother you! Step back and look at the big picture. You can still do whatever you want. You're the one with the power here.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:06 am

eman wrote:Dan, why are you letting the forum's opinions bother you? Step back and look at the big picture. You can still do whatever you want. You're the one with the power here.


Exactly! The coloured comics never appear on the front page, do they? You have to look for them. Many people don't know they exist.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby somercet on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:14 am

Amusingly, this was the weekend my daughter watched The Wizard of Oz for the first time. :lol: “I dropped the tab, Auntie Em, but I don’t feel anyth—oh, wow…”

Dan: On the one hand, I'm not going to stop reading EGS, and I am happy you’re off the university meat hook and back to posting. I have no idea how one hires a colorist (free or not), nor do I know how one writes a contract to settle the copyrights. So I gave no advice, only my opinion. (But yes, I do know the great legal difference between coloring one or two comics and coloring all of them.)

On the other hand, I think the stark look of the Susan/Verrückt confrontation has shocked many readers. Perhaps you need a bit more faith that your new-new-new-new-new-new style will win over the majority, as it has apparently (and repeatedly) done in the past.

On the gripping hand: yes, I liked the color you've been using. That's my opinion, and I would note that, as a graphic designer, you will need to exercise control over your area of a group project, or even lead it. I would ask a trusted prof or friend what he or she thinks. Again, up to you.

More amusement: the third site I visited after the forums reviewed another old Technicolor movie:
Also, it’s in super-extra-ultracolor. From the before-and-after restoration examples shown in the “Special Features,” it looks like they actually had to desaturate the movie to make it watchable. When it first came out in 1942, people must have felt their eyeballs flatten and their brains smoke from the effort of processing ALL THAT COLOR.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:19 am

Illusionist wrote:Because the audience is your teacher. I get exactly what you're saying, now how about you get what we're saying? You challenged us to find examples of people liking other people altering their work. We did. Acknowledge it.

I'm sorry, but I acknowledge squat here. I'm not talking about simply altering your work, critiquing your work, etc. What I'm looking for are examples that follow a very specific structure:

1 - You work hard and complete something, then share it.
2 - Someone else, whose help you never asked for, whose help you don't want, and is not someone whose job it is do so (i.e. not a hired editor, assistant, etc.), takes your work, alters it slightly, and also shares it.
3 - This happens repeatedly and frequently, if not always.

The teacher example fits 1 and 3, but I'm specifically talking about scenarios with ALL 3. That's what I'm looking for personal examples of before I can really take someone seriously when they say I shouldn't find it annoying.

I'm looking for evidence of first-hand similar experience, and two out of three doesn't really cut it, and even if it did, it would have to be points 1 and 2. Point 3 is simply saying it happens repeatedly, so that really makes the teacher example just 1 over and over again. That leaves out the teacher critiquing, but again, that's not the point I'm trying to make here.

I welcome critiques. I request critiques. I get critiqued all the time in my classes and get annoyed if people don't. I have opened critiquing sessions with, and I quote, "tear it apart." That is not what I'm talking about here. Teachers are people whose job it is to do so, and assistants were specifically mentioned in my earlier post.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Ineluki on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:51 am

Dan: ask yourself. Why does it annoy you?
This may sound like a stupid question, but I assure you it is not.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby The Old Hack on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:54 am

Illusionist wrote:Because the audience is your teacher.

That is so much codswallop. Dan's teacher is at the university, and the audience is not confined to the dozen or so loudmouths posting here. For a true audience reaction Dan would presumably need the number of unique hits on his site over a period of time. If they increase, he is doing something right, if they drop, what he does may need work.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby warrl on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:13 am

You know what really makes for lousy art?

An artist doing something because he thinks some other party demands it, without any internal feel for it.

Or what happened to Blue Crash Kit, another of my favorite comics, over the last six months.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:16 am

I don't really think Illusionist is arguing in favor of people coloring comics against Dan's will, ultimately. The argument just got centered around the 'unwanted fan-coloring' detail rather than the big picture. I'm sure his ultimate point (and mine) is that the color is an improvement and doing it in color is superior to plain black and white. Maybe not in every case or example of a comic, but in the example of EGS, yeah, the color works and is preferred.

So there's your critique that you welcome and request, Dan. If you disagree, that's your right, and you can defend it all you want with your arguments of saving time and preferring black and white, and that's your right too, but I will always - respectfully but vehemently - disagree. And While I understand that life comes first and all that, that doesn't mean I'm going to excuse what I see as poorer-quality work as a result.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Circe on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:32 am

DarkShive wrote:2 - Someone else, whose help you never asked for, whose help you don't want, and is not someone whose job it is do so (i.e. not a hired editor, assistant, etc.), takes your work, alters it slightly, and also shares it.


I can't speak for everyone, but personally this is where I'm hoping you'll consider a different approach. You're right -- altering someone's work without their approval is not acceptable.

I've unfortunately had some personal experience with this lately. One of my clients is a PhD in computer science. He is the stereotypical academic -- brilliant but socially inept. He has a habit of "improving" what I or other people have done, often without any understanding of what we were doing in the first place and therefore creating all sorts of new problems. To add insult to injury, he then complains about our progress on the things he has messed with.

Having said that, when I ask him to help and get things going on my terms, he can be very helpful. The difference is the context; when he is shown a particular problem he can usually help solve it. I simply have to make sure I'm going to him instead of the other way around and things generally work out. That only took about a year for me to figure out. :roll:

My point is simply that I'm hoping you'll decide that having an official colorist would not be a bad thing and quite different from a fan constantly coloring your work. You, like all of us, have limited time. The best use of your time is on story and drawing / inking. Having someone that you choose to do the coloring would allow you to keep up the pace you've set for yourself and give the audience something it wants (I believe...maybe a poll is in order?).

Of course you have to think about the downside also. Coordinating with a colorist, making sure their work is what you want it to be, dealing with any potential copyright or other business issues -- all of these may be more than you want to take on.

Just my 2 cents...
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:02 pm

DarkShive wrote:1 - You work hard and complete something, then share it.
2 - Someone else, whose help you never asked for, whose help you don't want, and is not someone whose job it is do so (i.e. not a hired editor, assistant, etc.), takes your work, alters it slightly, and also shares it.
3 - This happens repeatedly and frequently, if not always.


Remix.nin.

1- Trent Reznor works hard on an album, then shares it.
2 - Many other people, whose help he never asked for, remix his songs. Sometimes slightly, sometimes they're unrecognisable afterwards.
3 - This happens all the time.

Game mods

1 - Valve work hard on a game, then share it.
2 - Many small teams of people, who were never asked to do anything, mod said game into a multiplayer deathmatch, or zombie uprising game or what have you.
3 - This happens every time Valve release a game.

And Hack, any self respecting artist must learn from his audience. If a band release an album and the audience don't like it, they learn what not to do. True, the audience is not the only teacher, but it is one.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby AFNB on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:17 pm

I feel like I opened a can of worms.

And after re-reading the commentary, I feel bad for it. I originally mentioned the idea under the apprehension that the B&W comics were just because they were quicker to do and easier to maintain a schedule. The idea was, "Dan needs time. If he does the line art and someone else does the coloring, he can get that time he needs."

But, like I said, I re-read the commentary, and I saw this:

For one thing, I don’t really enjoy doing color comics. I might enjoy coloring one or two specific panels, but then there are the rest to deal with. I’ve found that I like to color singular images, but not sequential art. That’s a term I avoid using because it sounds pretentious to me, but I feel it fits here because I’m specifically referring to coloring a sequence of images instead of just one, and I generally don’t have fun doing that.

Now that I’ve brought it up, does a single panel gag cartoon count as sequential art? I’m taking a sequential art course this semester, so I guess that’s one thing to ask about.

Anyway, I DO enjoy working in black and white. A lot. It’s just more natural and fun for me somehow, and that’s what EGS is SUPPOSED to be for me. I’m studying to do graphic design for other people, but EGS is meant to be the project I do where I only answer to me and do it the way I want to do it and have fun with it. While I wouldn’t object to it somehow paying all my bills, it is not my job. It is a hobby with benefits, and should be treated as such.


I hope that Dan finds this post, and accepts my sincere apologies for opening this can of worms.


PS: As much as I like the comics in color, I really can't object to the current "Bone" style either.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:18 pm

Having a colorist makes it more of a chore. Seriously, the biggest point for me here is enjoying the making of the comic. EGS is too personal for me to enjoy having it be a collaboration. I could possibly do something else as a collaboration, but not EGS. Hell, if I was going to make something that I wasn't describing as a hobby with benefits and was going for the uber-professional "gonna make the big bucks" deal, I would WANT it to be a collaboration (if for no other reason than to allow me time for my hobbies with benefits).

Also, thank you, AFNB ^_^
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:20 pm

The problem is, EGS is the only thing we've ever seen you do. You call it a hobby with benefits, but at the same time you sell merchandise, ask for donations and debate printing costs. So we have no way of knowing whether to use a business argument or not.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Tuitsuro on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:22 pm

DarkShive wrote:You're a chef. Every time you cook something, someone appears and adds their own seasoning to it.


I worked as a chef; one of the employees I cooked for always came in and asked for garlic, because he thought there wasn't enough garlic and he liked it so much. Same with salt; I never add a whole lot of salt to my recipes but the employees always wanted to add salt, pepper, ketchup, mustard, etc. And every once and a while you'd get the complaint 'You know, It'd be better if you made it like this' or 'This was good, but it'd be better this way'. Of course, I'm fully within my right to tell them to shut the &^%@ up; I'm the cook. I can make whatever I want. However, that comes at a price, because if I constantly made food that no-one likes, then I'd probably end up losing my job, or at least getting so many complaints that I'd want to quit. But if I make really good food, then ocassionally, I'll get that one little comment that'll just brighten my whole day. Or I'll have a day when absolutely everything was eaten and I'll know the food I made was liked by everyone. But even on those days, I'm sure there are still people who will insist that 'their way is best' or 'things should have been done another way'. The point is, when you do your job well, you'll satisfy most people; but once your work is done and placed on the table, you have no further control of it. You don't put a salad out and then not expect people to dress it how they want to. I can cook a gorgeous steak to perfection; perfectly flavoured, and it'll cheese me off when someone wants to pour A1 steak sauce all over it, but it's their decision.

You may think the situations between a chef and an artist are disimilar; after all, there's a certain amount of ownership in artwork that may not exist as much in food prep; but generally our goals are the same, we want the consumer to be happy with what we've made; even if it's just for show or as a hobby. People generally will seek approval from others. But whereas your ownership as an artist comes from the final form of your work; ours as chefs comes, not necessarily from the final forms of our's, which is fleeting, but from the final forms of our recipes, as well as our techniques and particular styles which make us the signators of our work. And you think graphic artists have it hard; when a good recipe is created, not just a few but hundreds of people will attempt to figure it out. Through trial and error, hundreds of imitators will publish their own... unique... versions of your dish. Case in point; look up any restaurant you know of online for their recipes. If they're good, chances are there's a lot of imitators. And what'll really get your goat is when people start selling direct and [/b]blatant[/b] copies of your uniquely-created foods. There's absolutely nothing that can be done, after all I can't really prove that someone stole my recipe. Once I make the recipe and sell it to people as food; I have no real ownership of it. The only thing that I can do is continue to improve and be better than everyone else; because in the end there's no substitute for the real thing.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:22 pm

A month ago, I would have said business. My "hobby with benefits" outlook is recent, but long overdue.
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DarkShive
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:26 pm

DarkShive wrote:A month ago, I would have said business. My "hobby with benefits" outlook is recent, but long overdue.


So why do you even care about printing costs now? By your own argument, they would have been a concern a month ago, but now you shouldn't care.

Oh, and why do you only reply to the posts mentioning the teacher? Can you not see the arguments regarding remixes and mods or what?
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
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Illusionist
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