[STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:31 am

agmlego wrote:As to the proposed plan for Miyu to colour comics, I would think that is up to Dan, and Dan only. Seeing as he has not yet commented on this thread, we have no idea what his opinions on the matter are.


We all knew that already. Give us a little credit, eh?
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Nocturn on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:34 am

Even if we knew with 100% certainty that Dan will dismiss that idea without so much as a thought, this is still a forum and we can still voice our appreciation of an idea, even if it won't happen.

Honestly, I am not too fond of these "but Dan won't" or "but Dan might not" style of post, because they always leave the bitter aftertaste in my mouth of being told not to think or consider ideas that someone else disagrees with because someone else disagrees with. I am fully aware that in the end I or anyone else on this forum has no say in this, but I still like the idea and I will voice my approval of said idea.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:35 am

What it said.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Raging Mouse on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:41 am

CidGregor wrote:be real. This is the internet. Stopping people from doing everything from coloring it to Rule 34-ing it is like trying to stop the tide.


Stopping people from colouring the comic is one thing -stopping people from colouring the comic officially is an entirely different thing. I will probably colour parts of the upcoming comics myself, for avatarising, but I make no claims of officiality, and never colour an entire comic. I think Dan has expressed himself perfectly clearly, both now and before -The current strips are B&W, and if any strips are to be officially coloured, then he will do so himself.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:43 am

What's your problem? Miyu never claimed to be official. We're saying that he/she is so talented that he/she should be made official. Nobody's making claims to Dan's territory. So quit the broken record routine, OK?
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:45 am

stopping people from colouring the comic officially is an entirely different thing.


Sure, but....given the quality of the work, why would he want to?

(I mean this metaphorically but I'm sure I'm going to get some literal answers, so meh...)
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Raging Mouse on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:50 am

Illusionist wrote:What's your problem? Miyu never claimed to be official. We're saying that he/she is so talented that he/she should be made official. Nobody's making claims to Dan's territory. So quit the broken record routine, OK?


AFNB wrote:Additionally: all in favor of Dan recruiting Miyu for a colorist on a trial basis?


Don't put words in my mouth. You saying Dan SHOULD do something just because you think it would be great makes me frown. If that is not making claims to Dan's territory, then what is?
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:51 am

But that's just it. It WOULD be great. The majority response here is that the comic was superior in color.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:52 am

I'm not looking for a colorist, and will get annoyed if EVERY COMIC I POST winds up getting colorized. That started happening at some point with the earlier greyscale comics and I don't want to see it happen again. Fan colorings don't necessarily bug me when isolated, but it happening constantly will.

I posted about how EGS is my personal project where I do what I want; bringing others into the comic creation would be extremely contrary to that. I might want to do collaborations on other projects, but EGS is something I want to keep solo.

The reason we go from Tedd's living room (not the basement) to this scene is for several reasons. Here are a few of them:

1) The introduction via "I helped!" I could have done that other ways, but I wouldn't want to. I like that transition.
2) The matters regarding how magic works getting over and done with.
3) I wanted Susan's phone call and news about the, well, news to come completely out of nowhere.

Things get more linear after this scene. Granted, it could easily jump around a lot more given that there will be multiple moments happening at different locations at what would logically be about the same time, but I'm going to avoid jumping around. One hop backwards is plenty.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:54 am

Raging Mouse wrote:Don't put words in my mouth. You saying Dan SHOULD do something just because you think it would be great makes me frown. If that is not making claims to Dan's territory, then what is?


Speculation. The way I see it, "Dan should hire Miyu" is equal to "Dan should put Greg back in the comic", or "EGS should focus more on comedy".

And Dan, if all Miyu did was colour art you drew, and you wrote everything, surely EGS would still be entirely yours? Most parents don't complain when someone says "Your baby would look really cute dressed in red", after all.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Ineluki on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:59 am

Yep, very nice job, Miyu! (Just gotta wonder why it's already so dark outside after school ;) )
Anyway, saved me the trouble of doing it myself. I already had started but then these pc parts finally came and... yeah.
Oh, well. Will shall plenty of opportunity I guess ^.^

And Dan, I dunno what you're so upset about. These colored comics will just wind up in the forum anyway -- and as you said yourself, we're only a very tiny part of your readership :P
So next to nobody will even acknowledge their existense anyway. Stop looking for things to get upset about! ;)
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:00 am

DarkShive wrote:I'm not looking for a colorist, and will get annoyed if EVERY COMIC I POST winds up getting colorized. That started happening at some point with the earlier greyscale comics and I don't want to see it happen again. Fan colorings don't necessarily bug me when isolated, but it happening constantly will.

I posted about how EGS is my personal project where I do what I want; bringing others into the comic creation would be extremely contrary to that. I might want to do collaborations on other projects, but EGS is something I want to keep solo.


If that's how you feel then you're entitled to that. As long as you're okay with the general opinion that the quality of work has diminished.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Raging Mouse on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:00 am

Illusionist wrote:
Raging Mouse wrote:Don't put words in my mouth. You saying Dan SHOULD do something just because you think it would be great makes me frown. If that is not making claims to Dan's territory, then what is?


Speculation. The way I see it, "Dan should hire Miyu" is equal to "Dan should put Greg back in the comic", or "EGS should focus more on comedy".


I don't think there would be any point in continuing this discussion after Dan's last post.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Nocturn on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:02 am

Illusionist wrote:And Dan, if all Miyu did was colour art you drew, and you wrote everything, surely EGS would still be entirely yours? Most parents don't complain when someone says "Your baby would look really cute dressed in red", after all.


To elaborate, you'd be in control of the story, the plot, the characters, dialogue, the concept art, line art, inking, panel layout, and of course all the decisions in regards to colours. Essentially 99% of the comic with a 1% aid by, in this case, Miyu. Of course, if that 1% bothers you that much, eh.

Angry Rodent wrote:I don't think there would be any point in continuing this discussion after Dan's last post.


Too bad you're not in control of this discussion, huh?
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:04 am

Raging Mouse wrote:I don't think there would be any point in continuing this discussion after Dan's last post.


Dan is not God. We are allowed to have our opinions and discuss them.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby somercet on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:05 am

Miyu, wow. Very good job.

First off, I am very happy Dan is back in production. Reading all my webcomics sans EGS for the last month gave me the nagging feeling of missing something.

Second: I love some B&W comics. I was a huge fan of Dave Sim’s Cerebus the Aardvark (until the ‘infamous’ #186) but I do admit that Gerhard's gorgeous, delicate line work made that possible. Also, Sim’s word-obsessed style was suited to the earlier, blacked-in solo work.*

But EGS, while it has its own wit, is far more emotional. The B&W art is good (a bit stark in 3-7, with no crosshatches, deliberate?), but Miyu’s color adds warmth and depth to it. Panel 4 suffers from the color: Susan’s half-profile is not as effective.

I understand the control issue, too, though. :-|

* How black? Cerebus spent 25 issues in “the Ambassador Suite: the Regency Hotel’s ‘fifth floor coal mine.’… Black burlap curtains. How tacky.”
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby The Old Hack on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 am

CidGregor wrote:If that's how you feel then you're entitled to that. As long as you're okay with the general opinion that the quality of work has diminished.

*scratches head* So, CidGregor's opinion = general opinion? Um, right. I suppose that saves me the bother of having an opinion of my own. :shifty:

Seriously, near as I can tell opinions seem to be fairly equally divided between "black and white is quite OK, this looks good", "I like EGS either way", "I would prefer it in colour but can live with B&W" and "It was much better in colour, this sucks." And that's just the small number of opinionat... err, opinions from the regular posters here, a very small fraction of the actual readership. How does that translate into a general opinion that the quality has diminished?
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:17 am

Because just about everyone who said they prefer black and white comics said so with the cop-out qualifier "because it will mean more comics" (which, as was discussed in the news post thread, is NOT necessarily a given), and many of those people also said they LIKE the color, and ONLY preferred B&W because of the pretense of increased production.

Having said that, however, I meant 'general opinion' as the majority response here, not a unanimous one.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby DarkShive on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:20 am

1%... rrriiiight...

My annoyance is an emotional response, but if I had to justify it, I would have to say it has to do with me working hard on something, posting it, and having it be constantly followed by someone messing with it and saying "ooh, look! I made it better!" People here might make excuses as to why this shouldn't annoy me, but seriously, how could people not find this annoying?

Examples, with each case the "someone" being a person whose help you never asked for, whose help you don't want, and is not someone whose job it is do so (i.e. not a hired editor, assistant, etc.):

You're a chef. Every time you cook something, someone appears and adds their own seasoning to it.

You're a musician. Every time you write a song, someone comes along and redoes the tempo.

You're some guy working in an office. Every time you e-mail a memo, someone rewrites and re-forwards it.

Seriously, think of something you like doing yourself and enjoy, and imagine it always being followed by someone messing with it. If anyone claims that would not annoy them, I would need actual examples of it happening to them for me to even consider possibly taking their claim seriously. I think one would have to have no pride in their work at all to be okay with that.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:23 am

I repeat: Nobody posted black and white versions of colour comics.

People post colour versions of black and white comics, and are praised.

That should tell you the general attitude to whether the comics should be in colour or not.

And Dan, you could not find it annoying by thinking "This makes people happy! Happy people like my comic!"

As for your examples, what musicians do you know that go "RAR NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO COVER MY SONGS!"? What chefs do you know that won't allow anyone but themselves to make their recipes?

People like different things. That means people will alter things so they like them more. This is a fact of life. Get over it.

As for examples, I play guitar. If I come up with some little ditty, and then my teacher says "change this chord, it'll be even better", I'll give it a shot. And if it sounds better, great! If it doesn't, oh well. Either way, I won't be annoyed, because it's just someone trying their best to make something nice.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Nocturn on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:30 am

I am fairly certain chefs have, by default, a ton of assistants. If you're a chef, you're probably going to have to cook for lots of people at the same time, and in most cases a single person can't do it alone.

And songs get covered all the time. If a song is awesome, there WILL be remixes about it. Hell, a few days ago, my sister was listening to a remix of Moonlight Shadow.

And if you consider office work as "something you like doing yourself and enjoy", I'm not sure what your point was at all.

So, in your first example, hiring help is pretty much a necessity, in your second, if you're popular enough, someone will "redo the tempo" to fit their own musical taste either way and potentially even make money with it. In the third, well, that one is out there to begin with.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby CidGregor on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:31 am

Besides, this case is more akin to a chef having an existing recipe, then removing an ingredient from the recipe, and the 'someone' thinking the original recipe was superior and replacing that ingredient.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:35 am

In all 3 examples, there can be no new version without the original. I love the coloured comics, not just because of the color but because it's EGS. If someone said "Check it out, I've done Dominic Deegan in colour" I wouldn't read it, because I hate Dominic Deegan.

The colourisations aren't stealing your thunder, or making you look bad. They're just someone expressing their love for EGS in a way you didn't expect.

Also, about the music example: Trent Reznor set up a website for people to post remixes of Nine Inch Nails songs. He has also released several albums of remixes of his work.
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The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Raging Mouse on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:37 am

Nocturn wrote:I am fairly certain chefs have, by default, a ton of assistants. If you're a chef, you're probably going to have to cook for lots of people at the same time, and in most cases a single person can't do it alone.


By default, if you exclude the small restaurants, the family businesses, and all the other very small businesses selling foodstuffs.... You are comparing Dan to Disney Enterprises.

Nocturn wrote:And songs get covered all the time. If a song is awesome, there WILL be remixes about it. Hell, a few days ago, my sister was listening to a remix of Moonlight Shadow.


That remix most likely pays royalties to whoever has the rights to Moonlight Shadow. It is also likely that the remixer had to ask permission before so much as releasing a five-second part of it.
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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

Postby Illusionist on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:39 am

Raging Mouse wrote:That remix most likely pays royalties to whoever has the rights to Moonlight Shadow. It is also likely that the remixer had to ask permission before so much as releasing a five-second part of it.


See my post. Remix.nin.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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