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Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:21 pm
by Dragonstar
Oh, and btw, Kaiser (the title for the German Emperors) literally means Caesar, as does Czar.

Interestingly enough, a would-be dictator in the combined post-apocalyptic/medieval fantasy series The Death Gate Cycle is named Xar, supposedly named after the Czars of Russia, and, thus, after the Roman Emperors.

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:55 am
by Tarvok
Illusionist wrote:
nitpicking wrote:The German Empire lasted longer than the Russian one. Not by long, mind.


Technically, you could say the Russian Empire lasted until the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Rome was still Rome when the Republic gave way to the Empire, yes? Why not continue when the Empire gave way to the Soviet Union? Russia was still Russia, despite the regime change, and her territory remained intact. Exclude the Soviet Union from chain, and you might as well declare that the Rome at the end of what is generally accepted as the Roman Empire was not the same Rome that Julius Caesar seized power in, nor was Julius Caesar's Rome the same as all the other Rome's that had the succession decided by warfare.

AND you could say it lasts even beyond, since we're already not counting the split between east and west, the initial division of Charlemagne's empire, the final division of Austria and Germany, or any other event of territorial dissolution (we have to do this to get the West to migrate to Germany, and The East to Russia, right?). Just because the Union broke up into Russia and <insert name>istan, doesn't mean the line of succession is broken, right? :wink:

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:58 am
by Illusionist
Rome was still Rome, but it wasn't the Republic.

Moscow was still Moscow, but it wasn't the Empire. Lenin, Stalin et al may have been dictators but they weren't royalty. As for the line of succession, the Revolution put paid to that. With bullets.

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:55 pm
by The Old Hack
Illusionist wrote:Rome was still Rome, but it wasn't the Republic.

Moscow was still Moscow, but it wasn't the Empire. Lenin, Stalin et al may have been dictators but they weren't royalty.

And the precise difference between a dictator and an emperor being...? *scratches head*

(I am actually being at least partly serious here. *sigh* Given that so many Caesars came to power through military coup d'etats and the like, for one thing. And for another, I suspect that the average Joe Schmoe inhabitant of the Empire wouldn't be able to notice much of a difference. :/ )

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:37 pm
by Dragonstar
The Old Hack wrote:
Illusionist wrote:Rome was still Rome, but it wasn't the Republic.

Moscow was still Moscow, but it wasn't the Empire. Lenin, Stalin et al may have been dictators but they weren't royalty.

And the precise difference between a dictator and an emperor being...? *scratches head*

(I am actually being at least partly serious here. *sigh* Given that so many Caesars came to power through military coup d'etats and the like, for one thing. And for another, I suspect that the average Joe Schmoe inhabitant of the Empire wouldn't be able to notice much of a difference. :/ )


Well, Julius Caesar was named "Dictator for Life" before his murder cut his employment short.

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:45 pm
by The Old Hack
Dragonstar wrote:Well, Julius Caesar was named "Dictator for Life" before his murder cut his employment short.

There you are, then! He was dictator for the rest of his life!

:shifty:

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:57 pm
by Tarvok
The Old Hack wrote:
Dragonstar wrote:Well, Julius Caesar was named "Dictator for Life" before his murder cut his employment short.

There you are, then! He was dictator for the rest of his life!

:shifty:


He figured that "dictator for life" bit was fairly self explanatory, so he signed the contract without reading the fine print, which specified a term limit. :lol:

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:07 am
by Illusionist
The Old Hack wrote:
Illusionist wrote:Rome was still Rome, but it wasn't the Republic.

Moscow was still Moscow, but it wasn't the Empire. Lenin, Stalin et al may have been dictators but they weren't royalty.

And the precise difference between a dictator and an emperor being...? *scratches head*


Emperor is a hereditary title, either by birthright or by force. If you kill the Emperor and call your self something other than Emperor, no more Empire.

For example, England was not a kingdom under Oliver Cromwell, because he took the title of Lord Protector.

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:14 am
by nitpicking
"Dictator" was a specific government role in the Roman Republic, with term limits. "Imperator" (which became "emperor" in English) was a different one with no such limit, and the institution of which is considered to have ended the Republic, although under the Emperors Rome continued to call itself a republic.

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:58 pm
by Tarvok
Illusionist wrote:
The Old Hack wrote:
Illusionist wrote:Rome was still Rome, but it wasn't the Republic.

Moscow was still Moscow, but it wasn't the Empire. Lenin, Stalin et al may have been dictators but they weren't royalty.

And the precise difference between a dictator and an emperor being...? *scratches head*


Emperor is a hereditary title, either by birthright or by force. If you kill the Emperor and call your self something other than Emperor, no more Empire.


Actually, Imperator was not hereditary, which was the whole point. Romans, devoted to the ideal of the republic as they were (for many, many years even after Octavian cemented the new position), were not about to accept a hereditary king. So instead they combined a bunch of titles into one, including Imperator, which predates the Empire (and is what we derive the modern name for the combined office from). The position pretty much evolved to having all the authority of a king without actually being called a king. It took a while, but over time the position we now call the Roman Emperor evolved into having all the qualities of an oriental despot.

And the Romans couldn't even decide what to call it. Imperator, Augustus, Caesar, Dictator... these were all titles variously stressed at various times... and even these are merely loose translations of various related terms depending on whether you're talking about Latin titles for Roman emperors, or Greek titles for Byzantine emperors. About the only title they never took was Rex, since after all, Rome was a Republic, right? And Republics don't have kings.

Re: [STORY 1/12/2009] And I had better not hear you singing!

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:10 am
by Stardrake_
Illusionist wrote:
nitpicking wrote:If you want to really stretch it, the reason the Czars of Russia were the "Romanovs" was their very plausible claim to be the hereditary emperors of Rome. (A founder marred a princess of the Eastern Roman Empire.) So right until the Russian Revolution by that logic, too.


The German Empire lasted longer than the Russian one. Not by long, mind

Except that the HRE had pretty much disintegrated by the Thirty Years War, or the Napoleonic Wars at the very latest. Bismarck's empire was a new political entity which gained control of similar territories.

This is why Nazi Germany was the Third Reich. The first was the Holy Roman Empire, the second was the empire Bismarck formed in the 1800s and which was dismantled in the First World War. However, Russia has also fallen and been reformed in its history

That said, Russia did have a much stronger connection to Byzantium than the HRE did to any of the Roman empires. The original Russian empire was an ally of Constantinople and, as previously mentioned, there was the marriage of a Byzantine princess to one of the early Russian empires. As far as I know, there was no such direct link with the Holy Roman Empire - although with intermarriage between royal and noble families, it is possible that the closest claim to the Byzantine throne is now held by a German. Or a Russian. Or an English(wo)man.