Translating EGS ?

[mdm]

I haven't noticed much of a difference. It could always be coincidence.

I was stating the fact that I never help staying on topic, notice this thread for example.

Nah, Mayhem's worse. Some of us down there generated 20 pages of pure nonsense in an art thread in the span of about 5 hours. Yeah. We did.

[Aeg'air]

I would love to read the nonsense it would be an inspiration to us all!

[Proginoskes]

Specifically considering German, what German should one translate into? Just about everyone uses at least a trace of dialect, after all, except those people who speak it non-primarily. The differences are usually something like those between American and British English, except that there are more than two groups.

Strictly speaking, there are <insert arbitrarily large number here> dialects of English as well. There are distinct Maritime, Shield, Prairie, and West Coast dialects within Canada. Other countries would have even greater diversity. The differences are very few, but noticable. Add in the slang vocabularies of both technical and non-technical subcultures, and a bewildering picture emerges.
I'm guessing that the dialects of German aren't quite so interoperable as the dialects of English, though. In that case, go for the lowest common denominator (or perhaps greatest common factor): whatever it is that second-language students are supposed to learn.

In any case, I think this is a pipe-dream. I suspect Dan's feelings on this would be similar to his feelings on fan colourings.

[Illusionist]

If they are, he's a moron. Translating EGS will open it up to more people. More people reading = more money. More money = something that is awesome and should be encouraged.

[Tarvok]

double

[Tarvok]

In any case, I think this is a pipe-dream. I suspect Dan's feelings on this would be similar to his feelings on fan colourings.

I don't know about that. A translation isn't an improvement. This isn't a case of someone following him around, picking up his finished products, and "finishing" them further. It's a case of a multi-lingual reader attempting to make it accessible to others who could otherwise not read it. It isn't an "improvement", it's a conversion.

I stand with Dan on colorings. I'd stand with Dan on translations, if he were not (possibly scrupulously) avoiding commenting on the issue altogether. Absent comment, and absent any likelihood of legal action as a result, I see nothing unethical about creating and posting translated versions of the comics... particularly if they are posted in an "area" of the Internet where they are unlikely to compete with the main site for traffic (such as a French language only site on a French server under a French domain name).

[Ineluki]

But since EGS is a strict solo project for Dan, you might just drop this already.

[Tybalt]

I don't know about that. A translation isn't an improvement. This isn't a case of someone following him around, picking up his finished products, and "finishing" them further. It's a case of a multi-lingual reader attempting to make it accessible to others who could otherwise not read it. It isn't an "improvement", it's a conversion.

Exactly. The whole point of my orginal post was just trying to make other people discover the comic. If EGS was just another random cliché-story, I might renounce and just find equivalent comics in French, but there are not. EGS seems to be pretty unique. That's why I'd be glad to help making it accessible to non-English readers.

I stand with Dan on colorings. I'd stand with Dan on translations, if he were not (possibly scrupulously) avoiding commenting on the issue altogether. Absent comment, and absent any likelihood of legal action as a result, I see nothing unethical about creating and posting translated versions of the comics... particularly if they are posted in an "area" of the Internet where they are unlikely to compete with the main site for traffic (such as a French language only site on a French server under a French domain name).

I agree, except for this :

particularly if they are posted in an "area" of the Internet where they are unlikely to compete with the main site for traffic (such as a French language only site on a French server under a French domain name).

If I've understood your sentence correctly, I think you're wrong : I think that is precisely what Dan wouldn't like to see happen. As far as I have understood, he seems to be quite attached to EGS being available only on one site (his), and not being posted on any mirror site. This is why I had proposed solutions in order to avoid this :
- use "subtitles" that could be displayed under the panels on the current site. This would be all the more useful that many people on the Internet do have a basic knowledge of English, but not enough to read the comic fluently. Some "subtitle system" would allow them to progressively catch up with the most common vocabulary used in the comic, and maybe to, in time, read the original version when they wouldn't need the translations anymore.
and/or :
- launch a translation topic here on the board, where us bunnies could post propositions for translations, and exchange questions and precisions about translation points (like Uruyom, puns, hidden references and stuff).
Note that both solutions avoid posting new panels anywhere, and that they are compatible : propositions debated on the board could in the end provide the "subtitles" for the site.

[nitpicking]

Money can be important without being the only possible motivation. If Dan were primarily interested in money, one suspects he'd be in Investment Banking school or something, not art.

[Illusionist]

He gots bills to pay.

[Tarvok]

Boy, it'd sure be nice if our MORONIC COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION AND JUDICIAL PRECEDENT combined with Dan's paranoia about said body of "law" didn't preclude him from commenting in this thread, thus ending our speculation. It hangs like Sword of Damocles over every artist, be he holder of copyright or creator of legitimate derivative work.

[ForkBomb]

I see nothing unethical about creating and posting translated versions of the comics... particularly if they are posted in an "area" of the Internet where they are unlikely to compete with the main site for traffic (such as a French language only site on a French server under a French domain name).

That would be illegal. Its Dan's copyrighted work, and for that matter Dan's trademark etc too. It's piracy plain and simple. And while I'm not against piracy per-se, in this case it would be harming the original artist, so is wrong (Not that's not hypocritical, read it again.) (Just getting page views is in its self worth money,

If you were to just post up the text, like OhNoRobot, then I have no idea if that would be legal. I'd guess Dan would be more likely to say yes as he doesn't have to do any linking or whatever, and it has no "official" stamp, and is useless without the comic, which it would I assume link to. You could then use GreaseMonkey or whatever to bodge the text on to the comics pages if you want. Or I guess Dan could make a egs.com/French page or something.

[Tarvok]

Legal, schmegal. I have up on government years ago. Government scribblinegs only counts when:

a) It happens to coincide with morality (or rather, what was once meant by law before its functions were monopolized), OR
b) There is a reasonable likelihood of enforcement, thus the consequences of disregarding it must be considered.

I suppose you've never risked a speeding ticket, and you run straight to the cops if you happen to hear about an old lady using marijuana to ease her glaucoma symptoms.

As to hurting Dan's pageviews, that is precisely why I specified

they are posted in an "area" of the Internet where they are unlikely to compete with the main site for traffic (such as a French language only site on a French server under a French domain name).

Now, admittedly, this isn't what the OP is going for... he wants it put on the main site. That aspect is likely a pipe dream, since it would require additional work on Dan's part.

[kyevan]

Imagine how Dan would feel if one of us were to viciously parody his work... and yet, that would be protected under the law.

Heck, the good ol' Slay thread probably /isn't/ protected, and Dan at least tolerates that.

Anyway, I think the 'best' way to do this, for now, would be to create a text file linking back to EGS, and put that wherever. Something like, for a translation of the first comic to Uryuomoco (BECAUSE I CAN!):

Code: Select all

First Comic ("Hyulcg Senyus") - http://egscomics.com/d/20020121.html

Hello - Foraeh, Yu'n Elliot. Chyuc chot geh ni rohg yuc munoja Tedd
Sup. - Cak.

As - Uc iea ulo klevuvri uquulo, chyuc yuc eal hyulcg senyus, umja uc iea pmequ, hyulcg senyusc _urquuic_ casp.
_Always._ - _Urquuic._

And - Umja eh sealco, eal hyulcg senyus quyura vo meh ozsokgyuem.
Yup. - Iak.

Oh, - Ef, umja yum suco iea sum'g gora, Tedd'c u tai.
HEY!!! - FOI!!!


[ForkBomb]

Legal, schmegal. I have up on government years ago. Government scribblinegs only counts when:

a) It happens to coincide with morality (or rather, what was once meant by law before its functions were monopolized), OR
b) There is a reasonable likelihood of enforcement, thus the consequences of disregarding it must be considered.

I suppose you've never risked a speeding ticket, and you run straight to the cops if you happen to hear about an old lady using marijuana to ease her glaucoma symptoms.

DCMA makes it very easy for anyone to get anything removed. Go USA! Land of the free and all that.

As to hurting Dan's pageviews, that is precisely why I specified

they are posted in an "area" of the Internet where they are unlikely to compete with the main site for traffic (such as a French language only site on a French server under a French domain name).

Now, admittedly, this isn't what the OP is going for... he wants it put on the main site. That aspect is likely a pipe dream, since it would require additional work on Dan's part.

IMO that just makes it 100x worse. You are stealing traffic that would go to dan, and now goes to your site. Ergo, you are directly profiting from Dan's copyrighted work, which as I recall is a jailable offence, on-par with selling pirate DVD's etc (eg infringement-for-profit). Also, just because its a French domain, doesn't make it any less global.

[Tarvok]

I seriously doubt people who are able to read English would visit the hypothetical site I have in mind. And, OF COURSE the translator would provide links to the main site, quite possibly the pay-pal link, acknowledging the original creator of the translated work. The only people who would go there are people directly involved with the project, and people who would be otherwise unable to read EGS due to the language barrier.

What you're saying is like trying to say American scanlations are competing with creators of manga that ARE NOT being localized in the US. If they were, you'd have a point... but they're not, and neither is EGS.

And, BTW, using the words "is a jailable offense" in a discussion of ethics (I have already specifically excluded written law from my analysis) is the rhetorical equivalent of of saying "agree with me, or my people will kick your ass."

[nitpicking]

You don't get to exclude law just because you say so. The activity you describe is illegal. It's also illegal to 'scanlate' manga, it's just that Japanese creators seem to have a more relaxed attitude and are less likely to seek prosecution.

[ForkBomb]

There is no discussion on ethics to be had. Dan has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't like people screwing with his work. I like Dan and his comic and don't want to annoy him. So breaking the law in a way that's going to annoy him seems pretty clear cut to me.

[Tarvok]

Meh, at this point I think I'm just trying to be sufficiently annoying to draw Dan into the discussion. I strongly believe there is a material difference between translation and coloring, and in the end, his position on that is the only one that matters to me. But, whatever. I think we've all stated our positions as clearly as we can. (Insert tired but mostly satisfied looking smiley here.)

[Tybalt]

Yes, the discussion seems to be progressively shrinking to "Dan would think this - No, he'd think this !", while Dan has probably had the time to come and see the topic, and probably doesn't want to post an opinion on the subject for some reason. I suppose I'll just post my fan translations on the board some day, and if I get devoured by some evil monkey sent by angry DarkShive, you survivors will know for sure and inform future generations of bunnies that fan-made translations aren't approved.

[Nocturn]

Dan won't post in this thread because OH DAMN LEGAl MATTERS! Or at least I figure that's the reason, given how he gets very paranoid about the law.

But honestly, it's nice how you all think "But if it bothers Dan, we should not ever do it!". Yeah, even if this forum takes that to hard, there's a whole internet out there that doesn't give a f**k. If Dan is really this annoyed by people messing with his work, then he shouldn't put it on the internet. Yeah, it's illegal and immoral and what-have-you, but when you walk into the bad part of town, the fact that theft is illegal won't keep you from getting mugged, and this being the internet every part is the part part of town.

Hell, people edited his work into cheap porn before. The only way Dan would be able to deal with people messing with his work is putting fingers in his ears, sing "LALALALALALA" and look the other way, and given his lack of participation in this thread and his stance on fan-fiction, he is very much looking away a lot already, so there's not much of a point of trying to hide this from Dan to begin with.

[Aeg'air]

So your basically saying sharing your work with the world immediately gives the world the right to steal and twist it?

[theopenandclosedbook]

So your basically saying sharing your work with the world immediately gives the world the right to steal and twist it?

There is a big grey area here. I don't think so but I don't think there has even been a law suit about this. Plus most fanfics are terrible (mine included).

[Aeg'air]

So your basically saying sharing your work with the world immediately gives the world the right to steal and twist it?

There is a big grey area here. I don't think so but I don't think there has even been a law suit about this. Plus most fanfics are terrible (mine included).

To be honest so long as noone kidnaps my devArt stuff I don't care for fan fic. I'm just saying that by Noxy's description you can do anything regardless of copyright.

[Nocturn]

So your basically saying sharing your work with the world immediately gives the world the right to steal and twist it?

This has little to do with rights. I am merely pointing out how it is impossible to protect your work once it hits the net. You don't have to like it, you probably shouldn't like it, but it's simply a fact and whether it gets your Moral Approval stamp or not, things will keep being that way.

And speaking of deviantART:

16. Copyright in Your Content

deviantART does not claim ownership rights in Your Content. For the sole purpose of enabling us to make your Content available through the Service, you grant to deviantART a non-exclusive, royalty-free license to reproduce, distribute, re-format, store, prepare derivative works based on, and publicly display and perform Your Content. Please note that when you upload Content, third parties will be able to copy, distribute and display your Content using readily available tools on their computers for this purpose although other than by linking to your Content on deviantART any use by a third party of your Content could violate paragraph 4 of these Terms and Conditions unless the third party receives permission from you by license.

I rest my case.