Tripping over the red carpet

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:12 am

Not at all. Try, by all means. Just be sure to know your limits.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:58 am

Know your limit's, don't drink and conquer.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:13 pm

Yeah, look how Alexander the Great ended up.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:07 am

Would that be dead? 'Cos that'll happen anyway.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:42 am

Alcohol poisoning after he drank like 10 jugs of wine.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:50 pm

What away to go, well it would certainly beat getting killed at war.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ComW on Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:15 pm

Aeg'air wrote:I actually don't know how exactly it is worded, or even if it is worded the same in every country, just that at it's very basics that is rape.


Legal definition (england and wales) in the bottom paraagraph here [url]http://www.cwasu.org/page_display.asp?pageid=STATS&pagekey=35&itemkey=36
[/url]

note that most similar acts would be classed as "sexual assult" or "sexual harrasment" depending on the lawyers and judge.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:57 am

"Can only be committed by men".

Thank you, Government. Thank you for helping spread the myth that men are always monsters and women are always victims. Thank you for ignoring the suffering of innocent men, men who wouldn't be suffering if you'd just accept that women can be and sometimes are rapists.

I don't care that a woman who committed rape would still get convicted of sexual assault. That's not good enough, because it's pretending that the situations are somehow different. Nothing short of accepting that all non-consensual sex is rape is good enough. The Labour government prides itself on making things fair and equal, right? Why not this?

WHY is it defined as penetration with a penis? WHY? Do they think that any other kind of sex is any less horrifying when done against someone's will?

What's next? "Domestic abuse is defined as a man hitting a woman"? "Sexism is defined as mysogyny"? I hate this goddamn country.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:18 am

It's not so much that it's only rape if it's done by a man; it's more that only men have the equipment to do it under that definition. At least as far as I can imagine, actually having something stuck in you would be worse than being raped in other ways, although that may simply be because I'm straight.
I'm not saying you don't have a point - that law certainly isn't perfect (although with a subject like this it's hard to find one that could be). I just think you're taking that aspect of it a little out of context.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Proginoskes on Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:28 am

Tenebrais wrote:It's not so much that it's only rape if it's done by a man; it's more that only men have the equipment to do it under that definition. At least as far as I can imagine, actually having something stuck in you would be worse than being raped in other ways, although that may simply be because I'm straight.
I'm not saying you don't have a point - that law certainly isn't perfect (although with a subject like this it's hard to find one that could be). I just think you're taking that aspect of it a little out of context.

I think Illusionist's point is that the something that gets stuck in you shouldn't have to be a penis for it to count. The law should be "penetration", not "penile penetration".
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:38 am

Proginoskes wrote:
Tenebrais wrote:It's not so much that it's only rape if it's done by a man; it's more that only men have the equipment to do it under that definition. At least as far as I can imagine, actually having something stuck in you would be worse than being raped in other ways, although that may simply be because I'm straight.
I'm not saying you don't have a point - that law certainly isn't perfect (although with a subject like this it's hard to find one that could be). I just think you're taking that aspect of it a little out of context.

I think Illusionist's point is that the something that gets stuck in you shouldn't have to be a penis for it to count. The law should be "penetration", not "penile penetration".

That's the law's biggest inadequacy, I agree.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Darekun on Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:47 am

Illusionist wrote:WHY is it defined as penetration with a penis? WHY? Do they think that any other kind of sex is any less horrifying when done against someone's will?

I suspect they'd say rather that it's not sex, and kind of scratch their heads at the prospect of penetration being forced from the other side.

The first one I get a lot - there's a decent percentage of people who think I'm still a virgin despite, ah, being several years into a serious relationship, just because it's a lesbian relationship. Anything that doesn't fit their definition of sex can still be sexual assault, but not rape.

There is a path that would achieve equality while accepting these as possible views, but it has memetic drawbacks: expand sexual assault to fully cover rape, and treat "rape" as a nontechnical term referring to some forms of sexual assault.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:13 pm

Tenebrais wrote:
Proginoskes wrote:I think Illusionist's point is that the something that gets stuck in you shouldn't have to be a penis for it to count. The law should be "penetration", not "penile penetration".

That's the law's biggest inadequacy, I agree.


So then sticking a pen in your mouth is rape?
Its penetration, and the mouth is covered in the law.

I'll agree the law sucks, but I think all the suggestions in this thread are worse.

IMO, rape is a loaded word, and therefore should be dropped entirely from law. "Sexual Assault" can cover the whole spectrum. (After all, life in jail is life in jail. Does the name of the crime matter that much?)
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tuitsuro on Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:20 pm

ForkBomb wrote:IMO, rape is a loaded word, and therefore should be dropped entirely from law. "Sexual Assault" can cover the whole spectrum. (After all, life in jail is life in jail. Does the name of the crime matter that much?)


Nah, can't call it Sexual Assault either.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:05 pm

Proginoskes wrote:
Tenebrais wrote:It's not so much that it's only rape if it's done by a man; it's more that only men have the equipment to do it under that definition. At least as far as I can imagine, actually having something stuck in you would be worse than being raped in other ways, although that may simply be because I'm straight.
I'm not saying you don't have a point - that law certainly isn't perfect (although with a subject like this it's hard to find one that could be). I just think you're taking that aspect of it a little out of context.

I think Illusionist's point is that the something that gets stuck in you shouldn't have to be a penis for it to count. The law should be "penetration", not "penile penetration".


My point is that you can be a victim of rape even if nothing was stuck in you. For instance, a woman holding a man or another woman at gunpoint and forcing them to do the penetrating is, to my mind, rape.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:17 pm

Illusionist wrote:
Proginoskes wrote:
Tenebrais wrote:It's not so much that it's only rape if it's done by a man; it's more that only men have the equipment to do it under that definition. At least as far as I can imagine, actually having something stuck in you would be worse than being raped in other ways, although that may simply be because I'm straight.
I'm not saying you don't have a point - that law certainly isn't perfect (although with a subject like this it's hard to find one that could be). I just think you're taking that aspect of it a little out of context.

I think Illusionist's point is that the something that gets stuck in you shouldn't have to be a penis for it to count. The law should be "penetration", not "penile penetration".


My point is that you can be a victim of rape even if nothing was stuck in you. For instance, a woman holding a man or another woman at gunpoint and forcing them to do the penetrating is, to my mind, rape.


I don't disagree, but at what point do you distinguish between that and what Ellen did? You don't have to threaten someone's life to coerce them into having sex with you. But between that and simply playing on someone's sympathy is a broad spectrum of grey, and finding a cut-off point between "this is rape" and "this is not rape" will leave a lot of people unsatisfied wherever you put it.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby nitpicking on Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:48 pm

ForkBomb wrote:IMO, rape is a loaded word, and therefore should be dropped entirely from law. "Sexual Assault" can cover the whole spectrum. (After all, life in jail is life in jail. Does the name of the crime matter that much?)

That's essentially what my own state of New York does. "Rape" is not a term of law here.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Raging Mouse on Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:51 pm

How about "An act wherein person A uses violence and / or threats of violence to force a sexual act upon person B" ? Remember, violence can be something as simple as pinning someone against the ground or whatever.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tuitsuro on Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:57 pm

It's not rape, it's non-consensual sexual intercourse! It's like saying, "That's not murder, it's non-consensual premature life termination!"
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:13 pm

Raging Mouse wrote:How about "An act wherein person A uses violence and / or threats of violence to force a sexual act upon person B" ? Remember, violence can be something as simple as pinning someone against the ground or whatever.

So if someone were to, say, threaten to post naked pictures of someone else on the Internet if they don't give sex, that would be alright?
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Raging Mouse on Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:19 pm

Tenebrais wrote:
Raging Mouse wrote:How about "An act wherein person A uses violence and / or threats of violence to force a sexual act upon person B" ? Remember, violence can be something as simple as pinning someone against the ground or whatever.

So if someone were to, say, threaten to post naked pictures of someone else on the Internet if they don't give sex, that would be alright?


You just described mental violence. Blackmail.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:37 pm

Raging Mouse wrote:
Tenebrais wrote:
Raging Mouse wrote:How about "An act wherein person A uses violence and / or threats of violence to force a sexual act upon person B" ? Remember, violence can be something as simple as pinning someone against the ground or whatever.

So if someone were to, say, threaten to post naked pictures of someone else on the Internet if they don't give sex, that would be alright?


You just described mental violence. Blackmail.

You're starting to stretch the definition of violence pretty thin there.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:41 pm

Raging Mouse wrote:How about "An act wherein person A uses violence and / or threats of violence to force a sexual act upon person B" ? Remember, violence can be something as simple as pinning someone against the ground or whatever.


Define sexual act? Some people like biting and have fetishes about it. If I bite someone in the street is it rape, or just me thinking I'm a vampire?
Also, some people get off on violence, so GBH/ABH/Common Assault/etc are all covered too?

Tenebrais wrote:So if someone were to, say, threaten to post naked pictures of someone else on the Internet if they don't give sex, that would be alright?

Not rape. Not in the slightest. Its blackmail, plain and simple.
If I blackmail you for money, Its not theft. If I blackmail you to kill someone, you are still a murder.
Equally, if you have sex for blackmail, its not rape. If anything, its prostitution, you are using sex as payment in a transaction. (Same a sucking a dealer to get free drugs; using sex as a form of payment / for payment).

So to answer your question, no its not alright, but its not rape / sexual assault, its sex between two consenting adults for none-too-honourable reasons, something that's not too uncommon.

EDIT: Being blackmailed isn't like them holding a gun to your head or threatening to hurt you / others. You have no reason (legal, moral, or otherwise) to expect protection from your past misbehaviour.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:14 pm

ForkBomb wrote:EDIT: Being blackmailed isn't like them holding a gun to your head or threatening to hurt you / others. You have no reason (legal, moral, or otherwise) to expect protection from your past misbehaviour.

Who said it had to be incriminating to be blackmail? Coercing someone into sex under threat of humiliation is little different from threat of violence.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:28 pm

I have the right to expect to not be attacked. Its covered by the bill of human rights, the US constitution, and many places in the law over here too.
Nowhere does it say anything about humiliation. If whatever they are holding over you is real and legal, then sucks to be you.

What I'm getting at is, you didn't have to screw them, so its not rape. With the threat of violence, its something you have the right to expect to not happen, and is a serious thing. If I told someone to have sex with me or I'd cry, its not rape, its not a "real" threat. Even if the threat is illegal, have sex or I steal your TV?

The way I see it, when someone is raped without physical restraint, then IMO its a balancing game for them, pick the lesser of the two evils. What's worse, getting raped or getting shot?
Personally I'd take the getting beaten up over getting raped, even if the getting beaten was just to be followed by getting physically restrained and raped anyway, I think I'd be able to live with it easier if I did everything in my power to avoid it. However if they have some photos? Hell no. Worst case, I end up getting what I deserve for some past transgression. Can't be worse. (Or I guess it could be, but then well its a balancing act. And I'd still argue not-rape).
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