Tripping over the red carpet

It means "The Goonish Shive."

Moderators: DarkShive, corran_star, Berk

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Chaos Priest on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:03 pm

Free Radical wrote:
Illusionist wrote:A day or two ago, the wording was less ambiguous, though. I originally objected to the phrase "practically raped a guy", which was in the place of "pressured and forced"

You're right. The recent changes page shows someone actually pointing out that main Ellen wasn't the one responsible, and the original poster went back and deleted the other person's post and added some nonsense about the fans getting a Dethroning Moment Of Suck for defending Ellen's actions.

Begun this Edit War has.
Currently a Chaos Priestess.

"I don't want to be quoted, and don't quote that I don't want to be quoted." - Winston Burdett
Minionning for Cameo
User avatar
Chaos Priest
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:21 pm
Location: Strollin' through the archives

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby MOOMANiBE on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:39 pm

Maybe Dan should think of it as a compliment that people fight so vehemently over his characters...
User avatar
MOOMANiBE
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1176
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 8:17 pm
Location: CA

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby DarkShive on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:18 pm

So if one person in a relationship wants to sleep together, and the other isn't really enthusiastic but agrees to it to please the other person, it's THAT bad? I'm not saying it's good, but nobody was forced to do anything, the people involved were teenagers who weren't necessarily mature enough to get why they should've just broken up before it happened, and it wasn't traumatic enough for either to not remain friends after it happened even if there was significant awkwardness for a while.

If you REALLY want to get into issues of morality regarding that act, point fingers at Nioi. She made Ellen experience the dreams for both Ellen and Kaoli's sake, but that still means Ellen wound up experiencing that as a part of something she only vaguely, and not truly, agreed to. In addition, we only have Nioi's word for it that it was truly necessary for her mental stability. Ellen has apparently chosen to proceed under the assumption that it was, but her view on the matter could be skewed by her having experienced the second life to begin with.

Really, if one is that eager to point out something bad about that whole thing, go with the Nioi aspect. There's a lot more solid ground there than trying to over-dramatize SL Ellen and Archie sleeping together.

EDIT: Also, there are far, far more important things than whether some random person on the internet likes El Goonish Shive. Many people won't like it for various reasons, while many others will for various reasons. If the latter want to spend their time complaining about it, I guess it must be something they enjoy doing. I enjoy complaining about certain things myself, including things I like, so I can't really blame them. I believe there are better things they could be doing with their time, but we all have time wasters we indulge in.

So, yeah. It's not pleasant to hear negative comments about my own work, but people have a right to them, and it's understandable that they might want to make such comments.
El Goonish Shive - My Deviant Art Page
"Those shoes are definitely bi-curious." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
User avatar
DarkShive
Meddling Squirrel
 
Posts: 7595
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:39 pm
Location: Burn the land and boil the sea; you can't take the sky from me...

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby nitpicking on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:02 pm

DarkShive wrote:Really, if one is that eager to point out something bad about that whole thing, go with the Nioi aspect. There's a lot more solid ground there than trying to over-dramatize SL Ellen and Archie sleeping together.

I'm still hoping that Nioi ends up being revealed as a villain, or at least highly morally ambiguous.
nitpicking
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Long Island

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tricia on Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:46 pm

All's I'm going to say is that rape does not require physical violence. Pressuring and forcing in many ways could be considered rape...or at the very lease a very wrong thing to do.

But since Dan has already spoken, and said it's not that bad, the odds of anyone actually listening to me are nil...so meh.

I'm just gonna say, though, that I agree that that moment was handled absolutely horridly in the comic...and it was very close to making me stop reading, too. But I've gotten over it...so eh. *shrug*
Image
I love Darryl, yes I do.
And I love Noxy too.
User avatar
Tricia
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2763
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: Way too far away from Syracuse, New York...

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:11 pm

Nioi's already been revealed as morally ambiguous, didn't you read Dan's post?

And Tricia, the way I see it what Ellen did is roughly comparable to blackmail, where rape would be more like just going ahead with whatever threat you would make during blackmail. They're both bad, but there's different degrees.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Postby Free Radical on Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:17 am

Darkshive wrote:So if one person in a relationship wants to sleep together, and the other isn't really enthusiastic but agrees to it to please the other person, it's THAT bad?

Well, from what we saw in this case, I'd be inclined to call it emotional blackmail, and I'd actually consider it pretty horrible, though still not really as bad as that troper was making it out to be. Since it's not something Ellen did herself, blaming her for it or complaining about how nobody told her what a horrible thing she did is just stupid, but at the same time I'm kind of surprised by how lightly you're dismissing it.
User avatar
Free Radical
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:10 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:26 am

Like I said, Archie didn't particularly care either way - to him, it was probably a more tiring version of going clothes shopping, or something else you do to keep a spouse happy. Like Dan said, they were both teenagers doing what they thought they had to do, and no real harm came of it. Dismissing it lightly, while acknowledging that it shouldn't happen again is a far better course of action than screaming and shouting about it.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby DarkShive on Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:17 am

I'm quick to dismiss it because I'm speaking from the perspective of the guy who knows for certain how the characters themselves felt about it and how much pressure there actually was. Looking back at the comic itself, I left it VERY open to personal interpretation just how severe the pressure was. I'll have an opportunity to make it less open to interpretation later, but people are going to reach their own conclusions. Even after that, different people will have different feelings about it, but what the hell. That's life.

And Tricia, your assumption that people will follow whatever I say is tired and insulting to all concerned.
El Goonish Shive - My Deviant Art Page
"Those shoes are definitely bi-curious." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
User avatar
DarkShive
Meddling Squirrel
 
Posts: 7595
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:39 pm
Location: Burn the land and boil the sea; you can't take the sky from me...

Postby Free Radical on Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:25 pm

DarkShive wrote:I'm quick to dismiss it because I'm speaking from the perspective of the guy who knows for certain how the characters themselves felt about it and how much pressure there actually was.

Fair enough, I suppose. When you get right down to it, all we really saw of it was Ellen's brief narration of the events, so I guess we kind of end up filling in a lot of the details ourselves...
User avatar
Free Radical
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:10 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Nocturn on Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:17 pm

DarkShive wrote:And Tricia, your assumption that people will follow whatever I say is tired and insulting to all concerned.


I for one would love to test that theory, but unfortunately, it'll remain in the realm of hypothesis.
Image

ilikepie wrote:Noxy = love + insanity + sharp pointy objects
User avatar
Nocturn
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:46 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tricia on Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:23 pm

DarkShive wrote:And Tricia, your assumption that people will follow whatever I say is tired and insulting to all concerned.
I'd believe that if it wasn't for the fact that that very thing has happened many times in the past.
Image
I love Darryl, yes I do.
And I love Noxy too.
User avatar
Tricia
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2763
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: Way too far away from Syracuse, New York...

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tuitsuro on Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:15 pm

DarkShive wrote:So if one person in a relationship wants to sleep together, and the other isn't really enthusiastic but agrees to it to please the other person, it's THAT bad? I'm not saying it's good, but nobody was forced to do anything, the people involved were teenagers who weren't necessarily mature enough to get why they should've just broken up before it happened, and it wasn't traumatic enough for either to not remain friends after it happened even if there was significant awkwardness for a while.


I think you could make a legal case of rape if the roles were reversed. Or say, if we put Tedd in place of Ellen and Grace in place of Archie. You'd have to prove that one party wasn't enthusiastic enough to give consent. I'm completely serious, there's a feminist movement currently going on that wants to make consent not just a case of 'she gave in' or 'she didn't say no'; it would be 'She enthusiastically said yes or else it's rape' which is currently being put to the test in civil courts in the US. Now, personally, I don't think what happened between Ellen and Archie was rape at all, but, if in our altered scenario Grace were to swear out a complaint against Tedd, given similar circumstances, I do think certain organizations (namely, groups like the ACLU) would pick up on it and she'd have a credible, perhaps even winnable, case.
User avatar
Tuitsuro
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3757
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:01 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Raging Mouse on Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:48 am

DarkShive wrote:So, yeah. It's not pleasant to hear negative comments about my own work, but people have a right to them, and it's understandable that they might want to make such comments.


Nocturn wrote:I for one would love to test that theory, but unfortunately, it'll remain in the realm of hypothesis.


Tricia wrote:I'd believe that if it wasn't for the fact that that very thing has happened many times in the past.


*sings* Ebony and irony, living in perfect harmony....
User avatar
Raging Mouse
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:17 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tricia on Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:21 am

I'm not making a negative comment about Dan's work...I'm making a negative comment about his fanbase.
Image
I love Darryl, yes I do.
And I love Noxy too.
User avatar
Tricia
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 2763
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: Way too far away from Syracuse, New York...

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby kyevan on Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:15 am

Tricia, that's rather flawed - just as flawed as 'all Americans are overweight pigs who think they're better than everyone else'. I won't deny a large portion of the groups in question match at least parts of the stereotypes, but, you seem to imply that it's true of everyone who enjoys Dan's work - which I'm guessing includes you, since you stick around.
Image
Whee! Little Dragon! ^_^
User avatar
kyevan
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:30 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:40 am

Tuitsuro wrote:I think you could make a legal case of rape if the roles were reversed.


But, would it hold up in court? Like you said, there's an extremist movement trying to change the definition - so by the definition they're trying to change, our hypothetical guy would get off free, as well he should.

And Tricia, you believe that every EGS fan will follow Dan blindly. Am I to assume this is you finally admitting that you don't like anything about EGS? How about Nocturn, or me, or any other fan who says "I didn't like this" or "You should have done that"? Every single fan of EGS disagrees with Dan about something or other, and every single fan would change things were they the writer and/or artist. Now kindly keep your conspiracy theories to yourself.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:08 pm

I'm with Tricia on the grounds that it could have been classed as rape, though apparently (Wording from a teacher not my own) "Women can't rape men". I do not believe this though in the eyes of the law this seems to be the case. So on the grounds of my own belief and on the comics which have been wrote, yes what Ellen did could be the equivilant of rape.

...

And I am now going to hide from sharp objects and Tricia arguing with my ... support?
ImageMy devart page now has stuff!
Inventory
I will soon upload an avvy I have made. Until then I will use this Namin'e avvy for the sake of confusion and the text.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Aeg'air
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:06 pm
Location: fingers typing on the keyboard!

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby kyevan on Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:25 pm

Aeg'air wrote:"Women can't rape men".

To be fair, by the traditional definition, which required penetration, this would be true. However, in modern usage, 'rape' refers to a much larger set of actions, and even if an action does manage to slip through that, there's always the even broader 'sexual harassment', 'assault', and several others depending on the exact case.

I think this is more a case of "slEllen pressured Archie into making a bad decision" than "slEllen forced Archie into sex" in any case. She's not totally innocent... but at the same time, you can't really say she's guilty, either.
Image
Whee! Little Dragon! ^_^
User avatar
kyevan
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:30 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby nitpicking on Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:31 pm

Tuitsuro wrote:I think you could make a legal case of rape if the roles were reversed. Or say, if we put Tedd in place of Ellen and Grace in place of Archie. You'd have to prove that one party wasn't enthusiastic enough to give consent. I'm completely serious, there's a feminist movement currently going on that wants to make consent not just a case of 'she gave in' or 'she didn't say no'; it would be 'She enthusiastically said yes or else it's rape' which is currently being put to the test in civil courts in the US. Now, personally, I don't think what happened between Ellen and Archie was rape at all, but, if in our altered scenario Grace were to swear out a complaint against Tedd, given similar circumstances, I do think certain organizations (namely, groups like the ACLU) would pick up on it and she'd have a credible, perhaps even winnable, case.

Speaking as a long-time ACLU member, you are so far off base you aren't on Earth. The ACLU defends civil liberties. We simply do not get involved in criminal cases unless someone's civil rights have been violated, generally on constitutional grounds.

Also, there is no such feminist movement currently. There are a few crazy people who don't constitute a movement. A less hyperbolic version of what you suggest was current among a small minority in the previous century, however.
nitpicking
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Long Island

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tuitsuro on Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:06 pm

nitpicking wrote:Speaking as a long-time ACLU member, you are so far off base you aren't on Earth. The ACLU defends civil liberties. We simply do not get involved in criminal cases unless someone's civil rights have been violated, generally on constitutional grounds.


Okay, I'll rephrase. "...given similar circumstances, I do think certain organizations, namely the ACLU, would push the case in Grace's favor by threatening suit against Mr. Verres's 'company', the prosecuting attorneys, Moperville High, the investigative team assigned to the case, the judge, and his little hedgecat too; if the courts did not side with her case." Seriously, I apologize if I offend, but the ACLU wields considerable power and I don't doubt that if quite a few cases it's political weight is a ( maybe not 'the' ) deciding factor in how a trial case turns out. Then again, we have no idea if anything like the ACLU even exists in the EGS universes so it's probably pointless to argue it either way.
User avatar
Tuitsuro
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3757
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:01 am

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby nitpicking on Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:54 pm

[quote="Tuitsuro"Okay, I'll rephrase. "...given similar circumstances, I do think certain organizations, namely the ACLU, would push the case in Grace's favor by threatening suit against Mr. Verres's 'company', the prosecuting attorneys, Moperville High, the investigative team assigned to the case, the judge, and his little hedgecat too; if the courts did not side with her case." Seriously, I apologize if I offend, but the ACLU wields considerable power and I don't doubt that if quite a few cases it's political weight is a ( maybe not 'the' ) deciding factor in how a trial case turns out. Then again, we have no idea if anything like the ACLU even exists in the EGS universes so it's probably pointless to argue it either way.[/quote]
We have remarkably little power, and we would, as I wrote, never do that. Even if we could, which we can't. The ACLU might offer legal help to a defendant. It has essentially no influence over any prosecutor anywhere.
nitpicking
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Long Island

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:55 am

kyevan wrote:To be fair, by the traditional definition, which required penetration, this would be true.


Does the definition literally say "penetration"? That's goddamn stupid. If you word it that specifically, you're asking people to find loopholes.

On the other hand, any jury worth the air it's breathing will follow the spirit of the law if there's a case involving a woman, a man, some derpdrugs, bondage gear and some non-consensual sex, so I guess it's a moot point.

And Aeg'air, coercion and rape are two different things. One is convincing people to do something they shouldn't really do (what Ellen did) and one is physically forcing someone to do something (what Ellen obviously didn't do).
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
User avatar
Illusionist
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 4697
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 am
Location: Probably not where I'm supposed to be

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:33 pm

Illusionist wrote:And Aeg'air, coercion and rape are two different things. One is convincing people to do something they shouldn't really do (what Ellen did) and one is physically forcing someone to do something (what Ellen obviously didn't do).


Well actually rape is sex without consent, forcing someone into sex is rape so coercing them into it is rape also.
ImageMy devart page now has stuff!
Inventory
I will soon upload an avvy I have made. Until then I will use this Namin'e avvy for the sake of confusion and the text.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Aeg'air
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:06 pm
Location: fingers typing on the keyboard!

Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:38 pm

Illusionist wrote:Does the definition literally say "penetration"? That's goddamn stupid. If you word it that specifically, you're asking people to find loopholes.

You'd prefer some fluffy law that lets shop-lifters get done for rape and gets thrown out as soon as someone with a real lawyer gets at it?
Laws are misused all the time, (cf. anti-terrorism laws used for littering, purely financial issues, heckling politicians, and just about everything else they can think of). Crappy laws that are overreaching wont get in, and if they do are booted out by judges for being "unconstitutional" or whatever.

Illusionist wrote:On the other hand, any jury worth the air it's breathing will follow the spirit of the law if there's a case involving a woman, a man, some derpdrugs, bondage gear and some non-consensual sex, so I guess it's a moot point.

If the law really is like that, (Probably been updated), then it wouldn't get to a jury. The jury says if they did it, the judge gets to decide matters of law, such as if its illegal.
The jury does have some powers to ignore that, but its pretty much guaranteed to be thrown out on appeal, as its not illegal. As soon as people can be thrown in jail without breaking the law, its a police state.

EDIT:
Aeg'air wrote:Well actually rape is sex without consent, forcing someone into sex is rape so coercing them into it is rape also.

Is that what it says in he law? It will be very strictly specified.
User avatar
ForkBomb
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 8:00 am

 
PreviousNext

Return to El Goonish Shive

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests