Tripping over the red carpet

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:37 am

Illusionist wrote:I disagree. Saying yes when you want to say no, or it's the only way to prevent something even worse from happening shouldn't count as consent, because you're still having sex you don't want.

Having sex when you don't want to IS NOT RAPE. If you don't say no, but regret it later, you're just an idiot / drunkard. This is why lots of the anti-rape groups are so unsuccessful, they view all men as rapists by default.
If its the only way to prevent something worse, then sure, but that's covered by forced. (Of course, "worse" is subjective...)
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:53 pm

Having sex when you don't want to isn't being raped? Excuse me?

There's a difference between not wanting something and regretting it. I want to eat a cake. When I feel sick I regret eating it - but I wanted it at the time.

Also, the third sentence of your post bears little or no relation to the rest of it. 'Splain.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Proginoskes on Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:58 pm

Illusionist wrote:Looks like Occam's razor needs sharpening.

Just to add yet another item of discussion: Occam's Razor is about reducing complexity. Your quarrel with DemonicAngel's view of things is that it isn't complex enough. Additionally, Occam's Razor properly deals only with complexity of logical structures, not any real-world concepts or constructs. We're talking about Law, not Philosophy, so invoking Occam's Razor would have been out of context anyways.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:04 am

Illusionist wrote:Having sex when you don't want to isn't being raped? Excuse me?
There's a difference between not wanting something and regretting it. I want to eat a cake. When I feel sick I regret eating it - but I wanted it at the time.

I don't want to eat healthy food, but I do. I don't want to go to lectures at 9am, but I do. Doesn't mean I forced. Equally, when a couple have sex and one wasn't really in the mood, they didn't "want" to, but they did it for their partner. Its not rape, its just doing something for someone you like.

Illusionist wrote:Also, the third sentence of your post bears little or no relation to the rest of it. 'Splain.

It has massive relation, I assume I failed to fully explain my last post.
Say you have two people, been dating for a while, never done it. They're fooling around and making out, and end up having sex. One of them then says they didn't want it, its still not rape, because they wanted to say no, but didn't. Making no attempt to say no, and having plenty of opportunity to do so, is effectively consent (in the right circumstances). Otherwise your getting back to the every man is a rapist.
If personA honestly believes personB wants it, and has reason to do so, and personB can but doesn't attempt to communicate there refusal, then how can it be personA's fault?
People aren't psychic, *wanting* to do something counts for nothing, and can't be proved.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:04 am

OK, thanks for clearing all that up.

As for lectures, I imagine wanting to pass exams forces you to go.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:42 am

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tricia on Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:08 pm

*just shakes her head and walks away...*
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:17 pm

Well that was a useful post. It certainly made very clear what precisely you disagree with, and made sure we could have friendly, interesting debates on these subjects in the future.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby azrael_2001 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:20 pm

Illusionist wrote:Well that was a useful post. It certainly made very clear what precisely you disagree with, and made sure we could have friendly, interesting debates on these subjects in the future.

Now, now Illusionist, you know what they say about feeding the trolls....
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Nocturn on Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:53 pm

She obviously raped him to save him.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:31 am

Nocturn wrote:She obviously raped him to save him from his loneliness.


Fixed.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tricia on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:04 am

azrael_2001 wrote:
Illusionist wrote:Well that was a useful post. It certainly made very clear what precisely you disagree with, and made sure we could have friendly, interesting debates on these subjects in the future.

Now, now Illusionist, you know what they say about feeding the trolls....
Shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

I'm biting my tongue on this matter because people seem to have reached a consensus around here for the most part. I strongly disagree with it, but there's no point in continuing, since it would only probably resume in an argument.

If trying to prevent an argument makes me a troll...then you're a f***ing idiot.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:37 am

If you wanted to avoid an argument then you wouldn't have posted.
I can see no reason for your post other than attention seeking, trying to make sure everyone knows that your not posting because you disagree, I would guess because you know you can't win the original argument so wanted to change it to being about you.
From where I'm looking you just look petty/self obsessed. (Or a troll)
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:31 am

Option C: A petty, self obsessed troll.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

Nobody ever told Picard that "Ye cannae change the laws of Physics!". They just DID it. - Vampiress Kat.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Nocturn on Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:51 am

ForkBomb wrote:If you wanted to avoid an argument then you wouldn't have posted.
I can see no reason for your post other than attention seeking, trying to make sure everyone knows that your not posting because you disagree


And yet, at the same time, no-content posts that conist pretty much entirely of quoting someone else are not only accepted, but actively encouraged. Then again, in a forum of non-non-conformists, that is not exactly unexpected.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Aeg'air on Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:33 am

Then what exactly is Tricia's problem? If she doesn't want to say so because it starts an argument then start it anyway, as far as I know there seems to be nothing wrong with the settled terminology, if you have something to say then say it.

Nocturn wrote:
ForkBomb wrote:If you wanted to avoid an argument then you wouldn't have posted.
I can see no reason for your post other than attention seeking, trying to make sure everyone knows that your not posting because you disagree


And yet, at the same time, no-content posts that conist pretty much entirely of quoting someone else are not only accepted, but actively encouraged. Then again, in a forum of non-non-conformists, that is not exactly unexpected.


To that I say: huh?
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tricia on Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:05 am

a) Noxy is referring to the insipid "Seconded" meme.

b) I have major qualms with the idea that not saying no is equal to saying yes, under this supposed definition.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Raging Mouse on Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:54 pm

Tricia wrote:a) Noxy is referring to the insipid "Seconded" meme.


Trolling is not the opposite of agreeing with someone. There are a hundred ways to politely disagree, and you have yet to use a single one.

b) I have major qualms with the idea that not saying no is equal to saying yes, under this supposed definition.


I cannot find the part you are referring to. Could you please quote it?
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:55 pm

Tricia wrote:b) I have major qualms with the idea that not saying no is equal to saying yes, under this supposed definition.

It's not so much the issue of "is it rape" but the one of "is it punishable" that that deals with. If you have sex with someone who doesn't want to, but doesn't let you know that don't want you, how is it your fault? It is at worst an honest mistake.
To be more general, should you be punished for doing something that it only later transpired that someone wasn't happy with?
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby BinaryWraith on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:00 pm

Tenebrais wrote:
Tricia wrote:b) I have major qualms with the idea that not saying no is equal to saying yes, under this supposed definition.

It's not so much the issue of "is it rape" but the one of "is it punishable" that that deals with. If you have sex with someone who doesn't want to, but doesn't let you know that don't want you, how is it your fault? It is at worst an honest mistake.


If by honest mistake, you mean rape, then you are correct. Proceeding with sex without establishing consent is rape. Full stop, end of sentence.

Arguing otherwise is really, really fucking creepy.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Tenebrais on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:02 pm

BinaryWraith wrote:
Tenebrais wrote:
Tricia wrote:b) I have major qualms with the idea that not saying no is equal to saying yes, under this supposed definition.

It's not so much the issue of "is it rape" but the one of "is it punishable" that that deals with. If you have sex with someone who doesn't want to, but doesn't let you know that don't want you, how is it your fault? It is at worst an honest mistake.


If by honest mistake, you mean rape, then you are correct. Proceeding with sex without establishing consent is rape. Full stop, end of sentence.

Arguing otherwise is really, really fucking creepy.


What about the rapist? Presumably they don't tell their victims that they consent to it.
In a similar vein, if both are pretty drunk. If just one is, you could consider it rape, but if neither are in a fit state to give consent, do they both rape each other?
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Cameo on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:21 pm

Just to get it out of the way before moving on to the main subject: On the internet, if you truly don't want to participate in a conversation, you have the option of giving no indication that you were aware of the conversation at all, i.e. not posting in it. Making a post where you conspicuously don't state your opinion, but context makes it obvious that said opinion is negative, is kind of like trying to have your cake and eat it (no relation to the cake later in this post); you get the moral high ground of having technically not said anything to spark an argument, but without having to give up the opportunity to make it clear that you don't think much of the discussion.

Now that that's over with: I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where a sex act could go from start to finish, with both partners unimpaired and appearing to be totally willing, without consent being established at some point. It doesn't have to be a formal declaration; seems to me that there's plenty of ways to make it obvious, verbally, that you're okay with having sex. Of course, "saying no/yes" makes for convenient shorthand.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that consenting to sex -- i.e. being (genuinely) willing to do so-- and wanting to have sex are always the same thing. (Usually they are, but there's the case of doing it for your partner's sake that was brought up before.) To use Illusionist's cake analogy, it'd be like eating the cake because otherwise it'll go stale and have to be thrown out, rather than because you just want to eat some cake. If you really weren't up for eating cake (as opposed to being indifferent/not in the mood but willing) it would be more sensible to just turn it down, but nobody's forcing you to eat it; nothing especially bad would happen if you didn't eat it. (Or if you gave it to someone else who wanted it more than you did, but that's where the metaphor breaks down. Except maybe if you're polyamorous.) Also, you can still enjoy the cake even if you didn't originally start eating it just for the sake of eating it, but enjoyment isn't that relevant to my point (aside from the fact that, if it's not enjoyable at all for at least one of the participants, something has clearly gone wrong).

Dropping the cake metaphor, coercion is kind of a muddy area. I'd still consider it rape if your sole reason for agreeing was to prevent something you considered to be worse from happening, but you weren't technically forced into it, i.e. you could have avoided being raped if you were willing to deal with whatever the other option was, assuming that the "other option" wasn't, say, your death. Also, it's not exactly a choice if your options are "be raped, or be beaten into submission/unconsciousness and then raped". To (badly) reestablish the cake metaphor, it'd be akin to eating the cake because someone'll burn your house down if you don't. No lives are being threatened (we'll assume that no one would be in the house at the time), but it would obviously suck a lot. However, eating it because not eating it will make the person who baked it feel bad/think you're ungrateful isn't really the same thing.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby BinaryWraith on Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:54 pm

Cameo wrote:Dropping the cake metaphor, coercion is kind of a muddy area. I'd still consider it rape if your sole reason for agreeing was to prevent something you considered to be worse from happening, but you weren't technically forced into it, i.e. you could have avoided being raped if you were willing to deal with whatever the other option was, assuming that the "other option" wasn't, say, your death. Also, it's not exactly a choice if your options are "be raped, or be beaten into submission/unconsciousness and then raped". To (badly) reestablish the cake metaphor, it'd be akin to eating the cake because someone'll burn your house down if you don't. No lives are being threatened (we'll assume that no one would be in the house at the time), but it would obviously suck a lot. However, eating it because not eating it will make the person who baked it feel bad/think you're ungrateful isn't really the same thing.


However there is a line to be drawn here, albeit not one that can be done in generalizations. Being coerced into sex in order to please a partner is still not a good thing. It can still be rape in the spirit if not the letter of the law if the method of coercion is emotional abuse, threats, or mind-altering substances. That is something that has to be handled on a case by case basis between the partners, however. Getting a prospective partner drunk because you want to sleep with them and know they won't say yes sober is shaky moral (and possibly legal) grounds.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Cameo on Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:00 pm

Yeah, I agree completely. I just wasn't sure how to work full-blown emotional duress in there. (Or something like that. I'm very tired.)
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby nitpicking on Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:36 pm

By most Western laws, sex with someone who cannot consent is rape. For instance, it is assumed that a severely retarded person or young child cannot consent meaningfully, because they do not understand. This is the basis for statutory rape laws.

In one European case I remember, a man charged a woman with rape for performing oral sex on him while he was drunk, and won.
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