Tripping over the red carpet

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Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:18 am

Troper Bunnies may be familiar with the Dethroning Moment of Suck page. Essentially, it's the opposite of Crowning Moment of Awesome, as the title may suggest. My point is, that there's an entry for EGS - and it accuses SL Ellen of rape.

Now, many of you know I'm not too fond of Ellen. Her recent guilt doesn't really stop me from disliking her, especially as the most recent hiatus delays any real apology. I consider her the only person preventing EGS from being one of those rare pieces of fiction in which every main character is likable. However, I think that accusation is going too far - Archie clearly had a choice, even if he was being manipulated. He could have said "Ellen, I don't want this" and unless she was extremely out of character, Ellen would have accepted that and resigned herself to another night of handiwork. So, seeing her accused of rape pretty much blindsided me.

Your thoughts?
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Ineluki on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:05 am

There is such a page? Didn't know... *reads*
psh. Whatever. It's subjective and the article even states "But do have fun. This isn't meant to be that serious."
Besides that, people just use it as a whine-fest. *hands out cheese*
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:37 am

The guy in question seems pretty serious about calling Ellen a rapist, and it's such a serious accusation I thought it was worth mentioning here.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Ineluki on Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:07 am

Well, just because a moron is serious about something (on the internet on top of all things!) doesn't mean he's got a clue.
For hell's sake, of course Ellen is not a rapist.
That moron might as well bash on Tedd for subjecting Sarah to the horror of being turned into a catgirl - against her will!
*shaked head*
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:11 am

Excuse the hell out of me for thinking others might find this interesting.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Chaos Priest on Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:42 am

Wow, um, while it's certainly possible for a woman to rape a man, I don't really think that situation applies. Yes, Archie was pressured into it, but he was not forced to do it. He also did not seem to mind keeping the previous friendship he had with Ellen afterward so it doesn't seem like it was that traumatizing an experience to him. Besides, I don't think that puppy eyes count as a rape tool.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Nocturn on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:18 am

I was expecting menstruation jokes and/or cunnilingus jokes and am left sorely disappointed.

In any case, there is some merit in saying that, roughly as much as accusing someone related to the victim of murder because the person has no ability. That is to say, it's a possibility, even if it is very unlikely.

I assume this is common knowledge, but rape doesn't have to be violent, it can range from the use of drugs to coercion and black-mail. As far as "he had a choice" is concerned, I wouldn't back down from calling someone who uses "if you love me, you will have sex with me" method to convince an emotionally frail person into sex a rapist. However, rape is almost always more about power than it is about the actual act of sex, and it is pretty clear that what we have here is a case of two teenagers thinking they've been in a relationship for x units of time and feel it is now socially approtiate and/or expected they have sex and the more social-minded one is the more pushy one about this. This main characteristic of excerting power isn't present in this scenario. If you feel like it, you can call both of them victims to societal norms or something, though.

Ineluki wrote:That moron might as well bash on Tedd for subjecting Sarah to the horror of being turned into a catgirl - against her will!


I remember a discussion (I think I was the one starting it, actually), about hypothetical legal ramifications to involuntary/forced transformations, and there had been enough comparisons to rape and identity theft made. 'course, there were also those that disagreed, but I don't think I have to mention to which group I belonged at this point.

Edit:

He also did not seem to mind keeping the previous friendship he had with Ellen afterward so it doesn't seem like it was that traumatizing an experience to him.


Wives do tend to stay with their husbands even, or rather, especially after years of abuse, physical, emotional and sexual. That's the reason I rarely, if ever, take victim accounts a la "he never meant to hurt me" or "she only meant well" in account.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Melvar on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:28 am

Meh. Highly subjective, as said. And it's on DarthWiki, and therefore not to be taken seriously anyway.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:32 am

Nocturn wrote:I assume this is common knowledge, but rape doesn't have to be violent, it can range from the use of drugs to coercion and black-mail. As far as "he had a choice" is concerned, I wouldn't back down from calling someone who uses "if you love me, you will have sex with me" method to convince an emotionally frail person into sex a rapist. However, rape is almost always more about power than it is about the actual act of sex, and it is pretty clear that what we have here is a case of two teenagers thinking they've been in a relationship for x units of time and feel it is now socially approtiate and/or expected they have sex and the more social-minded one is the more pushy one about this. This main characteristic of excerting power isn't present in this scenario. If you feel like it, you can call both of them victims to societal norms or something, though.


I would disagree - anything short of physically forcing someone to have sex with you is coercion, manipulation, etc. Not rape. They can be very similar, but they are different.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby ForkBomb on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:35 am

Whoever wrote that is a moron.
People like that just lower the seriousness of things like rape. Its rape if its forced, if you just regret it it's not rape, you're just an idiot.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:37 am

I wouldn't call Archie an idiot. He did something he wasn't massively enthusiastic about for the sake of a relationship. To him, it was probably a more physical version of going to a movie you don't really care about.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Nocturn on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:40 am

"Highly subjective" is not a suitable defense in court when someone accuses you of committing rape. Either you are playing defense attorney or playing prosecutor, or you're playing this game wrong.

Illusionist wrote:I would disagree - anything short of physically forcing someone to have sex with you is coercion, manipulation, etc. Not rape. They can be very similar, but they are different.


I was gonna find some precedences here, but in the end this would just turn into a politics definition game, so I guess it's just quicker to simply agree to disagree.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:41 am

Nocturn wrote: politics definition game


Politics? Methinks you meant "legal" or "semantic".
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Nocturn on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:45 am

I guess I did, yeah.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:46 am

It's forgivable, seeing as politics and semantics are practically synonyms.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Melvar on Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:08 pm

Nocturn wrote:"Highly subjective" is not a suitable defense in court when someone accuses you of committing rape. Either you are playing defense attorney or playing prosecutor, or you're playing this game wrong.
I'm saying it is highly subjective whether this is a dethroning moment of suck. I was talking about the trope side.
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Postby Free Radical on Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:36 pm

Illusionist wrote:Troper Bunnies may be familiar with the Dethroning Moment of Suck page. Essentially, it's the opposite of Crowning Moment of Awesome, as the title may suggest. My point is, that there's an entry for EGS - and it accuses SL Ellen of rape.

Reading it, it doesn't actually seem to call it rape anywhere. It does, however, seem to be confusing Ellen with SL Ellen. Apparently, it's a bad thing that nobody is telling Ellen that she should feel guilty about things that someone else did...
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby nitpicking on Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:39 pm

I'm not sure that Archie regrets being with SL Ellen, per se. He isn't sexual, so it probably wasn't as big a deal for him as for her. Certainly in main-Ellen's retelling he ended up comforting her afterwards.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Jake R on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:54 am

Illusionist wrote:... you is coercion, manipulation, etc.


I could make some very female-unfriendly remarks about this bit but I won't because A) I don't mean them anyway and B) under 10% would think of them as funny.

Back on topic: yeah, Ellen did some very unkind stuff, and she's pretty weird at times, but rape? She knows where to draw the line, as shown by her actions right after her 'creation'. She tried to 'destroy' Elliot's life, and she did it by... just sitting there watching the girls change? ZOMG. SHE IS SO EVIL.

Seriously. The guy who thinks of Ellen as a rapist is... weird.
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Postby Free Radical on Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:10 am

Jake R wrote:Seriously. The guy who thinks of Ellen as a rapist is... weird.

And nonexistant, apparently. Here, this is what it actually says:

"Care to know why this troper dropped El Goonish Shive and never came back? Two reasons. The first was Ellen, during the interminable "Grace's Birthday Party", revealing that she pressured and forced a guy into sleeping with her during her Second Life... and nobody, nobody calling her on it. There isn't even any hint from the story she should feel bad. Dan Shive, there are a million ways to establish a female character prefers women, and you picked the worst possible one. What really killed it, though, was the sudden addition of yet another storyline (Chaos Child)... only to discard it without comment less than a few months later. If Dan Shive doesn't care enough to actually use any of the myriad stories he's already rammed into the plot, then this troper doesn't care enough to read his work."

It does make an obvious error, blaming Ellen for something that SL Ellen did, and that Ellen was simply forced to experience in her dreams, but while it does blame main Ellen for what happened, it doesn't actually call it rape anywhere.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:19 am

Forcing someone to have sex sounds like rape. A day or two ago, the wording was less ambiguous, though. I originally objected to the phrase "practically raped a guy", which was in the place of "pressured and forced"
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Raging Mouse on Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:37 am

There is a slight chance the poster reads this forum.
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Postby Free Radical on Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:41 am

Illusionist wrote:A day or two ago, the wording was less ambiguous, though. I originally objected to the phrase "practically raped a guy", which was in the place of "pressured and forced"

You're right. The recent changes page shows someone actually pointing out that main Ellen wasn't the one responsible, and the original poster went back and deleted the other person's post and added some nonsense about the fans getting a Dethroning Moment Of Suck for defending Ellen's actions.
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Re:

Postby Raging Mouse on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:54 pm

Free Radical wrote:
Illusionist wrote:A day or two ago, the wording was less ambiguous, though. I originally objected to the phrase "practically raped a guy", which was in the place of "pressured and forced"

You're right. The recent changes page shows someone actually pointing out that main Ellen wasn't the one responsible, and the original poster went back and deleted the other person's post and added some nonsense about the fans getting a Dethroning Moment Of Suck for defending Ellen's actions.


That has to be one of the more ironic actions on the internet. Can't say "most" by any stretch, but it's irony quotient has to be above average.
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Re: Tripping over the red carpet

Postby Illusionist on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:54 pm

And here I thought Dan was the one who was supposed to suck. Good use of links, by the way.
The book is almost always better than the movie. You could have no better case in point than FROM HELL, Alan Moore's best graphic novel to date, brilliantly illustrated by Eddie Campbell. It's hard to describe just how much better the book is. It's like, "If the movie was an episode of Battlestar Galactica with a guest appearance by the Smurfs and everyone spoke Dutch, the graphic novel is Citizen Kane with added sex scenes and music by your favourite ten bands and everyone in the world you ever hated dies at the end." That's how much better it is. - Warren Ellis.

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