[S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby The Old Hack on Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:24 am

I feel that the whole issue of abuse, regardless of which gender is doing it to which, has become somewhat sidetracked. There has indeed been movies which have dealt with various levels of social unfairness by inverting the roles, as well as literature and plays. The movie White Man's Burden springs to mind. But where the whole idea starts to break down for me personally is when it is being treated purely as comedy and played for laughs. I do not see anything amusing about domestic abuse. Nor about slavery, sexual predators, racial persecution or genocide. I can see the need to deal with these issues as well as the possibility of certain kinds of incredibly black and acid humour, but I do not feel comedy belongs among them -- at the very least, not pure comedy.

In EGS, the 'hammerings' do not proceed so far as to being on the level of domestic abuse. I see them more as a kind of wishful thinking given form; I myself have often found myself fondly dreaming of replying with a really big hammer when listening to sexist jerks in action. The hammers have also more or less faded from the continuity, a running joke that may reappear as an echo or image but which Dan himself has stated strikes him as funnier when merely implied or used as conversational horseplay. I myself see them as a product of male discrimination against other males as well as a somewhat absurd attempt of providing females with an equaliser in this kind of situation, possibly because Dan did not want to have his female characters stoop to merely being sexist in the other direction.

Not having seen the episode of 'Scrubs' in question, I cannot tell how well or how badly they balanced absurdity against seriousness in it. However, in these issues it is all too easy to cross the line for some people -- me included, I'm afraid. And I admit, it's very arbitrary. Dan's hammers do not cross any lines for me for whatever reason, though I do see how they might for some. Also there is the whole thing that one of the most important purposes of humour is to push at barriers and cross lines. It's just that when it deals with serious issues, it needs to be leavened with a degree of seriousness itself, or it may become mere slapstick and laughing at someone because he is being kicked while he is down. *sigh*
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Illusionist on Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:34 am

Ineluki wrote:
Illusionist wrote:Strawman? I only applied your logic to different situations. If that's me strawmanning you, almost every single debate on the planet has eventually descended into strawmanning. Also, if every company on the planet hires people according to history and quotas, every single company on the planet will go bust due to shoddy work. If the best person for the job just happens to be a poor black woman, hire her. If, however, the best person for the job is a middle class WASP, hire him. Any company that thinks "Hey, we don't have a Chinese guy. Let's hire an incompetent one over a competent white guy just so we have one." is obviously run by morons.

Secondly, yes, the 19th century is a long time ago. 108 years is a long time.

Thirdly, you missed my point. I was saying that the issues you raise - rampant male on female abuse, for instance - are nothing like as prevalent as they were when your relatives experienced them.

Somebody please quote this so Cooper can see that it was a misunderstanding. Alternatively, please inform him that it's good manners to let your opponent explain himself, instead of leaping to conclusions.

np, we don't need more hostility here...


Who's being hostile? We're just debating.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby kyevan on Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:19 am

Oh! Oh! I know! CENSORED, CENSORED, and CENSORED!

Illusionist wrote:Secondly, yes, the 19th century is a long time ago. 108 years is a long time.

This reminds me of a phrase - Americans think 100 years is a long time. Britons think 100 miles is a long ways.

Seriously, though, the hammers do all the damage of those big air-filled hammers you see at fairs or whatever. Pretty clearly NOT actual, damaging abuse - not to mention, he deserved it :P
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Illusionist on Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:25 am

I'm not American, though. I'm not sure what that says about your saying.

Secondly, i wasn't really objecting to the hammers, more to "acceptable" misandry in general.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby kyevan on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:10 pm

Illusionist wrote:I'm not American, though. I'm not sure what that says about your saying.

Secondly, i wasn't really objecting to the hammers, more to "acceptable" misandry in general.

It's just a saying, and it's intended to be funny (because it does have a grain of truth. American history, ignoring the history of the natives which most people do, is very young compared to the British Isles (or Europe in general) but is very, very big.)

Secondly, I don't see 'acceptable' misandry, really. It's more 'even looking at a female funny is evil and wrong'. In most (not all, but most) situations where a female acts violently against a male, two males would likely have similar reactions, as would two females... but a male acting against a female would be labeled as misogyny.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby ChronosCat on Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:01 pm

Chaos Priestess wrote:
Crystal wrote: :grumble: The second panel brings up another issue - the abuse of males by females seen in some Anime. While it's funny if the victim truly deserved it, in series such as Love Hina and Ranma 1/2 it's often based on misunderstandings and done by girls with hair-trigger tempers. I don't think it's appropriate treating abuse like that as humor, and I hope this series doesn't fall into that trap.

Frankly some of the time I'd say even the "innocent" victims like Ranma and Keitaro have it coming because they act like such idiots in those situations it's like they're going out of their way to get beaten. Like when Ranma tried to break into the girl's locker room to get the Japanese Nannichuan. I'm still not sure how many idiot balls he was juggling during that one. He deserved every blow and humiliation during that.


First of all, the version of me you quoted was from 2006, so technically it should have been "Chronos", not "Crystal". :)

Secondly, Ranma doesn't need to juggle idiot balls - the way I see it, doing idiotic things is part of his nature. ...That being the case, hitting him in the head probably isn't the most effective way of getting him to stop.

As for Keitaro, it's been a while since I read through the series, but I seem to recall being far more disturbed by the way he was treated than the way Ranma was. I'm not sure if it's just because he isn't a martial artist and so doesn't have an excuse for being able to take it physically (though he somehow does anyhow - cartoon physics at work, I guess), or if he was treated more unfairly - I suspect it was some of both.

Finally, I would like to point out that when I brought this up, I was merely reporting what I thought when I first saw the strip. Dan used the hammers sparingly, said that they don't cause "real" damage, and most of the time they were used only against those who deserved it. Between that and phasing them out, I haven't had a cause to complain.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Chaos Priest on Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:44 pm

$#@%! time travel, making things all confusing... :grumble:

Anyway, I'll admit I was mostly basing my rant off of Ranma, as the most I've seen of Love Hina was the first couple of manga. After that I just didn't bother with it. The violence against Keitaro never really bothered me that much though in what I read as it just seemed like cartoony slapstick.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Turey on Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:54 pm

Chaos Priest wrote:Anyway, I'll admit I was mostly basing my rant off of Ranma, as the most I've seen of Love Hina was the first couple of manga. After that I just didn't bother with it. The violence against Keitaro never really bothered me that much though in what I read as it just seemed like cartoony slapstick.


I actually stopped reading Love Hina because of this. You'd think, after a point, the girls would think, "Hey, the last 500 times he fell into the girl's bath/saw me naked/whatever, there was a good reason and it wasn't his fault, maybe the same thing is happening this time?" but no, they decided to pummel him, and then, when it turns out it WASN'T his fault, there's not so much as an apology or even an "oops."

It just seemed like he was less of a main character and more of a doormat, and I don't want to spend my time reading about doormats.

Ken Akamatsu is much better about this in his current series, Negima, mostly because it's a shōnen fighting manga disguised as a bishōjo harem manga.
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Postby Free Radical on Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:23 pm

CooperNRG wrote:Something akin to the afroementioned US affirmative action should be implamented in the Germany for jews and the other minorities that were persecuted (if it hasn't already been done).

..Why? Not being American, and not having grown up with the idea, it just seems like a really bad one to me. Why should it be implemented?
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Re:

Postby Turey on Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:34 pm

Free Radical wrote:
CooperNRG wrote:Something akin to the afroementioned US affirmative action should be implamented in the Germany for jews and the other minorities that were persecuted (if it hasn't already been done).

..Why? Not being American, and not having grown up with the idea, it just seems like a really bad one to me. Why should it be implemented?


I'm American, and I still think it's a terrible idea. You're just going to flare up old tensions. Adolf Hitler came to power because Germans felt that the Jewish people in their county were getting a better deal than the Aryans, and you want to create those same conditions again?
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby nitpicking on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:51 pm

Um, am I the only one who knows that Germany did in fact compensate Holocaust survivors and heavily support Israel?
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Turey on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:14 pm

nitpicking wrote:Um, am I the only one who knows that Germany did in fact compensate Holocaust survivors and heavily support Israel?


reparations and support for Israel != Affirmative Action for Jewish people within Germany.
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Postby Free Radical on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:51 pm

Turey wrote:
nitpicking wrote:Um, am I the only one who knows that Germany did in fact compensate Holocaust survivors and heavily support Israel?

reparations and support for Israel != Affirmative Action for Jewish people within Germany.

Yeah, I have to say that I see a rather large difference between compensating the people who were actually victims and setting up a system of preferential treatment for their descendants...
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Nocturn on Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:09 pm

It's just as Free Radical said. I don't see why some people should get my money and my opportunities, simply because my ancestors did something to their ancestors. Jews can live here like anybody else, but I'm not going to feel guilt and responsibility for what my ancestors did. Hell, if I ever meet a Jew, a younger one, who thinks they deserve this affirmative trash, I would tell them to get the f**k out of my sight.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Illusionist on Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:04 am

Or, more succinctly: There is no such thing as positive discrimination.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby CooperNRG on Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:15 am

Turey wrote:Adolf Hitler came to power because Germans felt that the Jewish people in their county were getting a better deal than the Aryans...


This is not how Hitler came to power. Hitler came to power by using, as scapegoats, a group of people with whom the people already had an established prejudice (spanning back centuries) and who had at no time a "better deal" (more often than not it was a worse deal), to exploit a country in a state of economic devestation as a result of a crappy treaty years earlier.

Just like the authorities had to force the integration of minorities into school, the same had to be done for the workplace. Before Affirmative action, there were minorities who were better suited for jobs, but had an inferior candidate chosen over them because of employers' personal prejudices!
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Postby Free Radical on Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:54 am

CooperNRG wrote:Just like the authorities had to force the integration of minorities into school, the same had to be done for the workplace. Before Affirmative action, there were minorities who were better suited for jobs, but had an inferior candidate chosen over them because of employers' personal prejudices!

Even leaving aside the question of whether affirmative action is the only way of achieving that, what does this have to do with your claim that affirmative action should be introduced in modern Germany?
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Turey on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:27 am

CooperNRG wrote:Just like the authorities had to force the integration of minorities into school, the same had to be done for the workplace. Before Affirmative action, there were minorities who were better suited for jobs, but had an inferior candidate chosen over them because of employers' personal prejudices!


Can you show me statistics saying that Jewish people and other minorities persecuted in the Holocaust are being significantly under-hired in modern Germany?
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby CooperNRG on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:37 am

I don't have any statisitcs. I just assumed that anti-semitism amongst Germans would still be there after the war (in the same sense that racism against minorities in the US was still prevalent even after the end of slavery).
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Nocturn on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:53 am

Maybe it was a decade or two post-war, but I like to believe we are mostly anti-semitism-free nowadays.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Illusionist on Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:54 am

CooperNRG wrote:I don't have any statisitcs. I just assumed that anti-semitism amongst Germans would still be there after the war (in the same sense that racism against minorities in the US was still prevalent even after the end of slavery).

Congratulations! I will never take you seriously again. Of course, I wasn't going to think much of you after your insane babbling, but now you've revealed said babbling was based on an assumption, I feel I can safely consider everything you say rubbish unless backed up by an outside source.

Also, Nocturn, for the record, I have never heard of German anti-semitism in a modern context. Or, indeed, any context other than the one the German government will probably arrest you for mentioning.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby kyevan on Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:15 pm

CooperNRG wrote:Before Affirmative action, there were minorities who were better suited for jobs, but had an inferior candidate chosen over them because of employers' personal prejudices!

After Affirmative action, there were majorities who were better suited for jobs, but had an inferior candidate chosen over them because of quotas!
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby The Old Hack on Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:59 pm

CooperNRG wrote:
Turey wrote:Adolf Hitler came to power because Germans felt that the Jewish people in their county were getting a better deal than the Aryans...


This is not how Hitler came to power. Hitler came to power by using, as scapegoats, a group of people with whom the people already had an established prejudice (spanning back centuries) and who had at no time a "better deal" (more often than not it was a worse deal), to exploit a country in a state of economic devestation as a result of a crappy treaty years earlier.

I am afraid that this is a staggering oversimplification. Hitler came to power due to the consequences of the aftermath of the First World War. Mainly through manipulating the population's fears of another financial crisis like the one in 1922-1923, through an alliance with the right wing leader Papen who thought he could control Hitler, and through systematic terror implemented by means of the SA -- itself created from the remnants of right wing free corps that appeared in the aftermath of WWI. The Jews only played a very small role in this, mostly as one small group of scapegoats among many. The Communists held a far more prominent role in Hitler's parade of 'national enemies' at the time of his takeover.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Illusionist on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:44 am

And of course, it is important to remember it wasn't obvious he would declare himself dictator and start up all the stuff we remember him for until after he started suspending civil rights.
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Re: [S.T.O.R.Y. 1/26/02] Ad Libs!

Postby Nocturn on Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:11 am

Also, Nocturn, for the record, I have never heard of German anti-semitism in a modern context. Or, indeed, any context other than the one the German government will probably arrest you for mentioning.


Not surprising at all.

Honestly, this whole situation frustrates me. As a German, you just can't say "I like Germany", "I'm proud to be German" or just having a German flag (unless it's for soccer-related reasons). If it's not a member of another country that starts arguing with you, it's other Germans. There is something wrong when another member of your country calls you nazi simply because you show your loyality to your country's soccer team by carrying your country's flag around.

Meanwhile we see other countries being fiercely patriotic, despite their past mistakes. I don't intend to point fingers here, Germany did very wrong things in recent history, but it just wasn't our Germany, it was Germany of the past. It's getting really tired to see everyone else live proudly of their nation whereas we're always made to feel shame for being German. To be fair, that attitude has been slowly fading away over the last few years, but it still left me very cynical whenever I see someone from another country being patriotic.
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