Sister 2 Forum Idea

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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby BinaryWraith on Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:02 am

Haylo wrote: The social aspects of a sex change might be a lot more drastic than that, but the physical aspects are well in the ballpark. Except to the extent that humans already have the capability of functionally dividing their motor capability into catagories (I sure use a different set of "moves" for walking and, say, scuba diving)no fancy additional neurons seem to be needed.


I know I'm going to get myself into trouble for going into a battle of wits against an unarmed man, but I think you're missing a point here. We're not talking about a healthy brain reworking itself around motor functions that have been disrupted. We're talking about a brain being modified to interface with new organs and chemistry on a unprecedentedly drastic level. The changes to balance and motor skills are an obstacle that can likely be overcome with some amount of physical therapy... however the changes to the brain are the question. It might very well be that those changes would correct for motor function, however that would require rewriting portions of the higher brain functions. At that point, we have a real and solid question as to if the patient is functionally the same person at all.

Not to mention the threat to self-identity. We already see problems of disassociation in burn patients and others whose injuries have radically changed their appearance in comparatively minor ways. What is suggested here is nothing less than a complete change of nearly all aspects of a physical person.

TL:DR? Reread the article and take notes.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby The Old Hack on Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:19 am

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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby theopenandclosedbook on Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:17 am

Nocturn wrote:
Tricia wrote:Our Plan will take a lot more money than that...but it will be worth it. Oh, yes, it will.


You know, with all the money we're making, we could by a lot of plane tickets.


Well, Didn't Dan say the All Male wallpaper was coming after the Bloodgrem one?

And istead of spending the money on yourselves, why not donate it to charity?
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:19 am

Nocturn and Tricia? Be something other than spiky balls of hatred?

Don't make me laugh.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby theopenandclosedbook on Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:52 am

I actually like Nocturn, for several reasons, and who doesn't love animals?
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Haylo on Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:30 am

BinaryWraith wrote:
Haylo wrote: The social aspects of a sex change might be a lot more drastic than that, but the physical aspects are well in the ballpark. Except to the extent that humans already have the capability of functionally dividing their motor capability into categories (I sure use a different set of "moves" for walking and, say, scuba diving)no fancy additional neurons seem to be needed.


I know I'm going to get myself into trouble for going into a battle of wits against an unarmed man, but I think you're missing a point here. We're not talking about a healthy brain reworking itself around motor functions that have been disrupted. We're talking about a brain being modified to interface with new organs and chemistry on a unprecedentedly drastic level. The changes to balance and motor skills are an obstacle that can likely be overcome with some amount of physical therapy... however the changes to the brain are the question. It might very well be that those changes would correct for motor function, however that would require rewriting portions of the higher brain functions. At that point, we have a real and solid question as to if the patient is functionally the same person at all.

Not to mention the threat to self-identity. We already see problems of disassociation in burn patients and others whose injuries have radically changed their appearance in comparatively minor ways. What is suggested here is nothing less than a complete change of nearly all aspects of a physical person.

TL:DR? Reread the article and take notes.

(Read entire article, but disagreed a lot. Since it’s one of the basic sources for the current debate did read it for a third time. Still disagree a lot.)

I still maintain that the human brain’s higher and motor centers can handle even drastic changes such as a male/female switch using the existing plasticity and multiple-mode operation. That includes different hormone systems, the few different organs, and the serious remodeling of some existing body structures.

The article cited assumes a complete change of the central nervous system, which when imported into this discussion begs the question. My contention is that making an adult human brain able to function as a member of the opposite sex (with a body of the opposite sex) never required a complete overhaul of the central nervous system in the first place.

I do agree that, since I am postulating leaving the brain essentially intact, a complete set of socially-acquired opposite-sex behaviors would not be available without time to learn them. That’s the whole point of having the same person learn what it’s like to be the opposite sex. I might also (unconsciously) be postulating an experimental subject with considerable empathy for both sexes, and with no phobias that would result in running away at the very mention of such a change.

Oh, regarding “unarmed”... You might in fact turn out to be better armed, but I’ve been following neurological research for decades. I simply don’t agree with the conclusion.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby ChronosCat on Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:37 am

First of all;

mandora wrote:OK ... wow where to start.

First, I thought this was all just a avatar swap and alternate name as to have fun as something we are not.


Correct. For the purposes of this thread, none of what Nocturn quoted matters.

Even if it did, this is an EGS forum. Obviously we are changing genders with the TFG. Therefore, this becomes a question about how the TFG works. (We've had threads like that before, but I suppose here's as good a place as any to discuss it this time.) That being the case...

Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote:You'd still be attracted to girls,

Yes, but if transformed by a TFG, you'd be attracted to boys as well.

Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote:And if we halt your body, swap out your Y chromosome for your father's X chromosome, and restart your body... well. That doesn't sound too safe, does it? Your neurons are already wired in a male pattern, just as your body already developed in a male pattern. I don't know what happens to your testicles, and I don't know what happens to your brain, either. Maybe your circuits would slowly start to rewire themselves under the influence of the new genetic instructions. At best you'd end up as a half-baked cross between male brain and female brain. At worst you'd go into a permanent epileptic fit and die - we're dealing with circumstances way outside the evolutionary context under which the brain was optimized for robustness. Either way, your brain would not look like your twin sister's brain that had developed as female from the beginning.

The TFG does a lot more than switch chromosomes. Furthermore, it's already established it makes changes to the brain (orientation), so making the other "wiring" changes necessary to function properly doesn't sound any more far-fetched.

Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote:If I fell asleep and woke up as a true woman - not in body, but in brain - I don't think I'd call her "me". The change is too sharp, if it happens all at once.
Well, that's one of the big questions - would having a brain wired for the opposite gender change how you thought? For some people, the whole point of the change would be to experience any change there. Some would argue that there wouldn't be much if any noticeable change, though (Tricia, for example). Certainly in EGS those who are gender-swapped don't seem to act differently.

Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote:What happens when, as a woman, you think back to your memory of looking at Angelina Jolie photos as a man? How do you empathize with your past self of the opposite sex? Do you flee in horror from the person you were? Are all your life's memories distant and alien things? How can you remember, when your memory is a recorded activation pattern for neural circuits that no longer exist in their old forms? Do we rewrite all your memories, too?
<snip>
Sounds complicated, doesn't it? It seems that to transform a male brain into someone who can be a real female, we can't just rewrite you as a female brain. That just kills you and replaces you with someone re-imagined as a different person. Instead we have to rewrite you as a more complex brain with a novel, non-ancestral architecture that can cross-operate in realtime between male and female modes, so that a female can process male memories with a remembered context that includes the male brainware that laid them down.

I'm no expert on the brain, but I wouldn't think the way memories are stored in male and female brains are so different they would need to be "translated". (If we were talking about changing species, perhaps, but not gender.)

Either way, the TFG seems able to handle it. Certainly, Elliot identified with his/her male self even when female - so much so that Ellen had a difficult time thinking of herself as a separate person from Elliot when she was first created.

Of course, I keep saying "the TFG does this" and "the TFG does that", without going into how it does these things. Personally, I'm satisfied with the "magic/phlebotinm" explanation - but I understand that doesn't cut it for others.

Also, EGS doesn't address this but,

Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote:Remapping the connections from the remapped somatic areas to the pleasure center will... give you a vagina-shaped penis, more or less.


I would think the penis would become a clitoris, (and vice versa in the reverse transformation).
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Sqauto on Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:27 am

*Joins the party and switches to the opposite version of his avatar.

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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby OzLionHeart on Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:38 am

That would probably work better if you had an avatar... :P
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Tricia on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:07 am

Well, Didn't Dan say the All Male wallpaper was coming after the Bloodgrem one?

And istead of spending the money on yourselves, why not donate it to charity?
He also said the All Male wallpaper as coming over 2 years ago.

And because our PLan is very important. And bunnies are awesome.

The TFG does a lot more than switch chromosomes. Furthermore, it's already established it makes changes to the brain (orientation), so making the other "wiring" changes necessary to function properly doesn't sound any more far-fetched.
Yeah...uh...no. Girls don't think "I jiggle", like Tedd did. Girls don't pose in front of the mirror, ogling themselves. Or any of a dozen other examples with various people from the party. The TF gun just plain does not turn guys into guys. It turns them into guys wearing girl suits.

I would think the penis would become a clitoris, (and vice versa in the reverse transformation).
...I don't go into details, but methinks you need to take a bit of sex ed. Or basic biology.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby WalkerBoh on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:28 am

Tricia wrote:
The TFG does a lot more than switch chromosomes. Furthermore, it's already established it makes changes to the brain (orientation), so making the other "wiring" changes necessary to function properly doesn't sound any more far-fetched.
Yeah...uh...no. Girls don't think "I jiggle", like Tedd did. Girls don't pose in front of the mirror, ogling themselves. Or any of a dozen other examples with various people from the party. The TF gun just plain does not turn guys into guys. It turns them into guys wearing girl suits.
While I have to agree that girls generally don't do that, I have to make a point that occurred to me only just now. Imagine that instead of turning a man into a woman, it made a blind woman capable of sight. Then you might actually get the mirror response as it is something she's never seen before: her own body. (Same goes for those makeover shows on tv. Those people spend a lot of time ogling themselves in the mirror because of the drastic changes.) And in much the same way, it shows the guy something that he's never seen before: what he'd look like as a girl. That much I can understand.

Tricia wrote:
I would think the penis would become a clitoris, (and vice versa in the reverse transformation).
...I don't go into details, but methinks you need to take a bit of sex ed. Or basic biology.
This is actually completely correct. In actual cases of intersexed persons (hermaphrodite or semi-hermaphrodite), the clitoris and the phallus are the same body part and can function perfectly well.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:30 am

Girls pose in front of the mirror all the time. You know, just like guys do. How else would anyone know how they looked?
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Tricia on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:34 am

While I have to agree that girls generally don't do that, I have to make a point that occurred to me only just now. Imagine that instead of turning a man into a woman, it made a blind woman capable of sight. Then you might actually get the mirror response as it is something she's never seen before: her own body. (Same goes for those makeover shows on tv. Those people spend a lot of time ogling themselves in the mirror because of the drastic changes.) And in much the same way, it shows the guy something that he's never seen before: what he'd look like as a girl. That much I can understand.
There's a huge difference between seeing how you look in a mirror, and treating your own body as a sexual object. You can't tell me Tedd was posing and undressing just to see what he looked like. Or that Elliot looked at himself in a bra just to see what he looked like.

This is actually completely correct. In actual cases of intersexed persons (hermaphrodite or semi-hermaphrodite), the clitoris and the phallus are the same body part and can function perfectly well.
It's vaguely right. But there's a lot more to the differences than that.

Girls pose in front of the mirror all the time. You know, just like guys do. How else would anyone know how they looked?
I don't know of a single girl that looks in the mirror, staring at her boobs, getting turned on by them.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:38 am

Narcissism is a real disorder, Tricia. Just because you don't know anyone with it doesn't make it less true.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Tricia on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:41 am

Illusionist wrote:Narcissism is a real disorder, Tricia. Just because you don't know anyone with it doesn't make it less true.
Complete and total non sequitor.

Do come back when you have something relevant to say, though.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:43 am

Uh, a narcissist is attracted to his or her own body, correct?

Tedd is attracted to the female version of his own body, correct?

Tedd has wondered if he may be a narcissist, correct?

Therefore, a post mentioning narcissism in a thread about somebody being attracted to their own body is in fact entirely relevant, correct?
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Tricia on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:47 am

Tedd only tells himself that to rationalize himself being attracted to Grace when she was in Tedd form.

And that *still* doesn't apply to Elliot or Sarah.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Illusionist on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:51 am

So it's impossible that Tedd could be at all vain or narcissistic, eh?

As for Elliot and Sarah, ever heard of a little thing called novelty value? "Oh, hey, that's new". Besides, it's not like the comic endorses ogling, is it? "Bad Sarah! Sop thinking of yourself as a sex object!".
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby ChronosCat on Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:32 pm

Tricia wrote:
The TFG does a lot more than switch chromosomes. Furthermore, it's already established it makes changes to the brain (orientation), so making the other "wiring" changes necessary to function properly doesn't sound any more far-fetched.
Yeah...uh...no. Girls don't think "I jiggle", like Tedd did. Girls don't pose in front of the mirror, ogling themselves. Or any of a dozen other examples with various people from the party. The TF gun just plain does not turn guys into guys. It turns them into guys wearing girl suits.


First, I don't see what that has to do with the TFG rewiring the brain so it'll function properly.

Secondly, It depends on what you mean by "girls". It doesn't turn guys into girls who have the life experiences of growing up as girls, so in that sense you're right.

As far as being attracted to themselves, the thing is anyone who started out bi-sexual or heterosexual winds up bi-sexual. Furthermore, while the TFG may re-wire the brain, it apparently doesn't change the subjects sense of self so much that when they look in the mirror they completely identify with the person they see; as such being attracted to the body one see does not seem unreasonable. I imagine except for someone who is narcissistic, this would pass if the person spent a lot of time in the reverse-gender form.

Tricia wrote:
I would think the penis would become a clitoris, (and vice versa in the reverse transformation).
...I don't go into details, but methinks you need to take a bit of sex ed. Or basic biology.


I've taken both (admittedly a while back); I don't recall either going into what body parts of one gender correspond with what body parts of the other. I have heard from multiple sources since that the clitoris and penis correspond; unfortunately the only source I can remember off the top of my head is Wikipedia. (Technically Wikipedia calls them "homologous".) Of course, I realize the clitoris lacks various parts found in a penis, but that doesn't mean they don't start out similar as an embryo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Homologues_of_the_Reproductive_System
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Nightranger on Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:55 pm

*looks at ongoing debate*

Wow. I know someone's already said it, but I'll say it again:

Transgender transformations=Serious Business


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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby nitpicking on Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:37 pm

Two actual biology points to consider.

1, the clitoris corresponds developmentally tot he glans penis, not the entire organ.

2, the brain appears to use the same modules to remember events that it used to experience them in the first place. For instance, if the visual cortex is destroyed, one loses not only sight but the MEMORY of sight. Thus, memories of being male would seem different when remembered as a female, and vice versa. Our brains are not so dissimilar that the memories would be unavailable (in my opinion) but they'd definitely seem weird.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby BinaryWraith on Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:57 pm

Haylo wrote:I still maintain that the human brain’s higher and motor centers can handle even drastic changes such as a male/female switch using the existing plasticity and multiple-mode operation. That includes different hormone systems, the few different organs, and the serious remodeling of some existing body structures.

The article cited assumes a complete change of the central nervous system, which when imported into this discussion begs the question. My contention is that making an adult human brain able to function as a member of the opposite sex (with a body of the opposite sex) never required a complete overhaul of the central nervous system in the first place.


Well, as we can't really test the matter practically, think we'll have to agree to disagree on the physical aspects. I have equal concern with the psychological consequences, myself, as they are more relevant to an EGS situation where the TFG handles the physical side of things.

ChronosCat wrote:I'm no expert on the brain, but I wouldn't think the way memories are stored in male and female brains are so different they would need to be "translated". (If we were talking about changing species, perhaps, but not gender.)


There's the rub. It isn't so much the storage that is the question, but the ability of the mind to deal with the experience of remembering being a completely different body in so many ways without suffering disassociation, depersonalization, and gender identity problems.
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Chaos Priest on Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:26 am

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...what the? Darn it, Chaos Priestess, if that was you, I knew it was you who did it.

Well it wasn't me. I'll have you know that I've given up TFG use for a while to find new and interesting ways of gender swapping somebody. I'm currently trying modifying voodoo dolls for it, but unfortunately the most I've been able to accomplish thus far is making somebody a crossdresser and having them say "I'm a pretty pretty princess."
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby The Old Hack on Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:59 am

Chaos Priest wrote:Well it wasn't me. I'll have you know that I've given up TFG use for a while to find new and interesting ways of gender swapping somebody.

Excuses. Now my entire wardrobe has turned Goth, and what am I going to tell my girlfriend?

I'm currently trying modifying voodoo dolls for it, but unfortunately the most I've been able to accomplish thus far is making somebody a crossdresser and having them say "I'm a pretty pretty princess."

Hrm. What sort of dolls are you using? I've had good results with shapeshifting using either plasticine or wax. I find them less useful for inflicting pain than cloth or wooden dolls, and have had close to no success with mind control with them, mind.
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The Old Hack
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Re: Sister 2 Forum Idea

Postby Aeg'air on Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:18 am

The Old Hack wrote:
Chaos Priest wrote:Well it wasn't me. I'll have you know that I've given up TFG use for a while to find new and interesting ways of gender swapping somebody.

Excuses. Now my entire wardrobe has turned Goth, and what am I going to tell my girlfriend?

I'm currently trying modifying voodoo dolls for it, but unfortunately the most I've been able to accomplish thus far is making somebody a crossdresser and having them say "I'm a pretty pretty princess."

Hrm. What sort of dolls are you using? I've had good results with shapeshifting using either plasticine or wax. I find them less useful for inflicting pain than cloth or wooden dolls, and have had close to no success with mind control with them, mind.


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