Forum Shift

Geek out, fanboy.

Forum Shift

Postby TCampbell on Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:55 pm

In anticipation of the move announced on the homepage, I'll shortly be shifting forum links to "T's Q&A" on TalkAboutComics.com, at http://talkaboutcomics.com/viewforum.php?f=163 .

Just a heads-up.
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Postby Drooling Fan Girl! on Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:14 pm

*DFG looks up from coloring something....*

meh????

mmm....

OK, it's your baby, but dang it you're a sneaky closed mouth such and so.

Take Care
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Postby Kingleon on Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:33 pm

...Oh.

Uh.

Hmm.

Well.

College Student with Little Time may not be seen after this point. It will go to Graphic Smash... I will be probably just wait until the summer to just buy a subscription and spend two weeks getting caught up. At the moment I'm having to check my webcomics one a few times a week. FANS is the only web forum I visit anymore, since I no longer online RPG at Mystery and Magic games.

So... That's me. KL. Kingleon. Kingleon44. King Leon the Fourth. Kingleon IV. The Pratchett fan, who liked Captain Marvel (Shazam!) and dinosaurs.

It was good hanging with you all. T, Tom, Sebastian, Maccabee, Nodrog. We had some great moments on here, some great Nodrogizing and crazy theorizing. I'm sure Graphic Smash will do fine, T, especially with a guy like you at top. Maybe I'll meet you (stalk you) at a Con one of these day. Well, whatever. There's a time for a goodbyes and a time for hellos. Time for goodbye. It's been a nice two years on here, and I learned alot about fandom in that time.

Cya.
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Postby Sebastian on Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:32 am

Well, good luck, T, but this is a good bye, then, I don't plan to buy a subscription to Graphic Smash (or any other webcomic subscription service) any time soon for all a series of reasons (money and lacking of a credit card is just some of the factors). Oh, I'll try to keep up with the dailies, but archive are too important in Faans to fully understand what is happening and to be able to speculate adeguately (and speculation is half of the fun in fans)
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Postby LordLucan on Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:11 am

[Joey from Blossom Mode]
Woah!
[/Joey from Blossom Mode]

Wow! Lots of conflicting emotions here!
    - End of an era! Start of a new one! Exciting but a little scary!
    - Fans isn't going to end this year! Wahoo!
    - Dammit! I'm probably not going to make Despot now, am I? Better replan my life! :)
    - Noo! We're going to lose people! Our little community is no longer going to suddenly dwindle away, but we are going to lose a lot of good people! *blubber*
    - Fans is going to be more profitable. Thats got to be a good thing all-round!
    - Wonder if this is going to effect the possibility of crossovers with other non-subscription webcomics?
    - Fans isn't going to end this year! Double yay!


Good luck T and co, hope it works out! And those of you that are not coming across yet, hope I still see you about somewhere?

*Blows nose*
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Postby lordjulius on Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:39 am

To the naysayers:

First off, you don't have to have a credit card. You can establish a PayPal accounting by mailing a check or money order, then use that to pay your subscription. (EDIT: I'm assuming you're taking PayPal, right T? I know Modern Tales does)


"I don't have any money." If you don't waste $3 every month, you're extremely unusual and probably headed toward miserly riches someday. Most of us waste that much in frivolous expenses we can't even recall every week, at least. You can't afford to PAY the person who has given you such wonderful and thoughtful entertainment for the last however-long-you've-been-reading? Well, nobody says you have to, but don't complain about not being able to read the archives, because if they're that good and that important you should be able to come up with $3 a month for them.

Look at T as a street musician. Some people put money in the hat, some don't. Now he's got a gig, maybe not at Carnegie Hall, but at least a real, paying gig, at a club down the street with a cover charge. You don't want to go, fine, but he deserves the money, and you shouldn't expect him to keep playing in the street all his life.
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Postby LordLucan on Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:56 am

lordjulius wrote:You don't want to go, fine, but he deserves the money, and you shouldn't expect him to keep playing in the street all his life.


In all fairness to those who have commented on lack of funds, I don't think any of them have said they're angry about the situation, in fact most of them said "Good luck"...
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Postby sun tzu on Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:57 am

I just got my first bank account today.
Fans' moving to Graphic Smash convinced to get the Internet-payment option as soon as I can.
Behold the power of a good comic.
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Postby Tom the Fanboy on Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:02 pm

Well, looks like I'm going to be paying.
*sigh* I was hoping to pay for the subscription AFTER school started but.... *shrug*


I apologize everyone, if I hadn't gotten 1000 posts I don't think T would've moved the comic. I guess the appearance of Timmespin recently was just a red herring.....

*mopes his way to the ATM*
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Postby Sebastian on Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:46 pm

LordJulius:I'm sorry if this sound offensive but, please, keep your lectures to yourself. How I choose to spend my money are MY business.

Anyway, money are just part of the problem, even if the principal. Other reason I would not subscribe to Graphic smash are the impraticability of it. (International money order from here need-from what I've heard- weeks, if not months to arrive (and beside I don't like send my money by mail) and the fundamental insubstatiality of Modern Tales/Graphic smash model. What I mean is, if I buy a dead tree issue comic for a year and then for any reason I choose to stop I would always have the 12 issues of the comics I already bought, but if I subscribe to GS for a year and stop in the end I have nothing, I could not even read the archive with the stories that, technically, I paid to read. And then there would be the problem of the time-limit. At now I have in a folder some bookmarks of comics that I mean to read, when I will have the time or will be in the right mood. But If I have to pay to read this comic and I would have only a limited time to read them I'd feel compelled to read them faster than I can and what should be a pastime would became almost a chore.Now if they would sell CDs with the archives of the modern tales comics, that would be different.
These, for silly they may sound, are the reasons why I'm not sure I would follow Faans like I did until now.

(sorry again for the rudeness but this was not a good day and T's news didn't help. Fans was the first serial webcomic I got addicted to, and the first that make me join to a forum to speak and nodrogize about it, and to think that I could lose some comic in the future or that I could not read some story in the archive anymore, don't make me happy. Well, I suppose is time to re-read the archives for the last time until I can :( )
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Postby Peanut-butter Monkey on Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:10 pm

Sebastian wrote:Anyway, money are just part of the problem, even if the principal. Other reason I would not subscribe to Graphic smash are the impraticability of it. (International money order from here need-from what I've heard- weeks, if not months to arrive (and beside I don't like send my money by mail) and the fundamental insubstatiality of Modern Tales/Graphic smash model. What I mean is, if I buy a dead tree issue comic for a year and then for any reason I choose to stop I would always have the 12 issues of the comics I already bought, but if I subscribe to GS for a year and stop in the end I have nothing, I could not even read the archive with the stories that, technically, I paid to read. And then there would be the problem of the time-limit. At now I have in a folder some bookmarks of comics that I mean to read, when I will have the time or will be in the right mood. But If I have to pay to read this comic and I would have only a limited time to read them I'd feel compelled to read them faster than I can and what should be a pastime would became almost a chore.Now if they would sell CDs with the archives of the modern tales comics, that would be different.
These, for silly they may sound, are the reasons why I'm not sure I would follow Faans like I did until now.


I can appreciate the "it's my money, I have other priorities" comment, as that's (by defination) true. If you just don't want to spend the $3, ok, you can stop reading this post, as the rest doesn't apply. But if you really would consider paying if it was more convienent for you, there are other options for you. If paying by check, you could simply buy in one year intervals, thereby making the time delay issue a one-off thing.

You could also set up a paypal account directly linked to your bank account (in America, at least, there is no minimum age for a bank account, just the requirement you have money to put in it), which would transfer the funds between your local bank and Smash electronically, probably instantly. I've personally never been to Italy, but I've been to England, France, Ireland, Greece, Turkey, Japan, and China, and I've been able to just walk up to any local ATM and get money because of the Star (formally MAC), Plus, and Cirrus alliances, I'm sure you could find a bank where you are on one of those systems with minimal effort.

Lastly, as to the "permanence" of your purchase, if you so chose, nothing is stopping you from saving copies of the comics to your hard drive, which could be backed up on CDs, other computers of yours, whatever.

But if you're still not hot on the idea, technical issues aside, all I can say is: it was cool hanging out with you, and you'll be missed.
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Postby TCampbell on Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:01 pm

You have every right to spend your money as you choose, Sebastian... but I can't deny that I find three bucks for 30 comics a very reasonable price.

Especially when I consider what three bucks gets me at the comic book shop these days. Woo.

Peanut-butter Monkey has pretty much covered the "impracticability" angle. As for insubstantiality, what you say is true, but I don't know how many comics that I bought a year ago that I'm still re-reading today. There are some, but not many. Besides, it's not like you can't re-subscribe later for $2.95 a month.

FWIW, there will be a TIMES OF WAR CD out later this year, and of course the FANTASTICA CD is available already.

As PBM said, I hope you'll at least scrape the equivalent of $2.95 together, Sebastian, and give us a shot, but if not, you'll be missed.

But as I said in the blog, it all comes down to this: with the Graphic Smash model, unlike the current model, I can afford to continue FANS. I'm sorry to lose any readers. But I'm happy not to lose the strip.
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Postby Sebastian on Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:08 pm

TCampbell wrote:You have every right to spend your money as you choose, Sebastian... but I can't deny that I find three bucks for 30 comics a very reasonable price.

It is not for the 30 bucks/years, T. If I could send you the money just with a snap of the finger I'll do it right now. It is just that annoy me to have to take a credit card just to read some comic (even if this comic is faans)
The fact that this would mean another 20 Euro/year for the card doesn't help.
But in the end I'll probably do it all the same. *sigh* at the very least this would mean I would be able to get the CRFH and Fans issues and CDs. (I'll just hope I'll be able to stop there. (This is another reason I don''t want to get a credit card :o )
As PBM said, I hope you'll at least scrape the equivalent of $2.95 together, Sebastian, and give us a shot, but if not, you'll be missed.
With or without subscription I plan to read the comic anyway, and to be in the new forum like I was in the old ones. It is not so easy to get rid of me. :)

But as I said in the blog, it all comes down to this: with the Graphic Smash model, unlike the current model, I can afford to continue FANS. I'm sorry to lose any readers. But I'm happy not to lose the strip.

I'm happy for that, too.
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Postby Stark on Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:40 am

Peanut-butter Monkey wrote:You could also set up a paypal account directly linked to your bank account (in America, at least, there is no minimum age for a bank account, just the requirement you have money to put in it), which would transfer the funds between your local bank and Smash electronically, probably instantly.


Just as a matter of advice, I wouldn't recommend giving PayPal authority to take money directly from your bank account. I was nervous about setting up an account with them even using my credit card, but I reckon that as I check my statements regularly if they ever charged me for anything I didn't order I could have the credit card company cancel it before I ever had to pay a penny. But if they can debit your account directly, by the time you find out about the error the money is gone and you have to fight to get it back: almost impossible if you're not in America, and bloody difficult (I expect) even if you are.

Lastly, as to the "permanence" of your purchase, if you so chose, nothing is stopping you from saving copies of the comics to your hard drive, which could be backed up on CDs, other computers of yours, whatever.


I don't know whether this is approved of by those running Graphic Smash and Modern Tales; what's to stop me buying a subscription for a month, saving the archives of all the comics, cancelling my subscription, and reading them at leisure?

(This is part of my objection to the subscription model at Modern Tales et al: surely a better model would be to have the start of the archives available free as a teaser to entice people in (as that's normally how I get into a comic) and then have the ongoing strips only available to paying customers? That way the customer is actually paying for something they read on an ongoing basis (as opposed to the archives, which I read once and then hardly look at), and there's more chance of getting them to subscribe in the first place: it's next to impossible to gauge quality of a comic from one randomly-selected strip from the middle of a story that means nothing without its context.)
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Postby Joey Manley on Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:52 am

Stark wrote:(This is part of my objection to the subscription model at Modern Tales et al: surely a better model would be to have the start of the archives available free as a teaser to entice people in (as that's normally how I get into a comic) and then have the ongoing strips only available to paying customers? That way the customer is actually paying for something they read on an ongoing basis (as opposed to the archives, which I read once and then hardly look at), and there's more chance of getting them to subscribe in the first place: it's next to impossible to gauge quality of a comic from one randomly-selected strip from the middle of a story that means nothing without its context.)


Hi Stark, thanks for your honest thoughts about our business.

Fact is, to many people, the Modern Tales business model doesn't make *theoretical* sense. But theoretical sense doesn't put money in the bank. We've tried several variations on the pay/free mix, including the one you mention above, and every time, the one that has succeeded beyond and above all the others is our current model. We make about as much gross revenue as Keenspot, and considerably more profit (because our bandwidth bill is almost nil), on about 1/100th of the core audience base. For strips that aren't going to appeal to an enormous mass audience anytime soon, but do have a strong and loyal fanbase, and use a lot of bandwidth per strip, it's a very good arrangement. One of our Modern Tales cartoonists last month made almost $584, the next one down made about $300. Not all of our cartoonists are doing that well, but most are happy enough to be getting paid on a monthly basis. (And all of them are seeing their checks grow every month). I'm not sure how much the Keenspotters are making individually, but I'd be surprised if they are seeing the kind of money we're talking about, and I'd also be surprised if their checks are growing every month. But, like I said, I dunno.

On the issue of PayPal: PayPal actually takes chargebacks, just like a credit card. If a charge goes through PayPal that you don't want, PayPal will happily send your money back to you, provided you didn't get and use the product or service you desired. For that matter, most PayPal sellers, including me, are very generous with the refunds and such, when a legitimate misunderstanding (as opposed to buyer fraud) has occurred.

The subscriptions you buy from Modern Tales do recur automatically, but if you cancel before your term is up, you don't get charged again -- so my advice for those who don't like the automatic debit: subscribe, then cancel immediately -- your access to the site won't be cut off until the end of the term you have already paid for has ended. If you paid monthly, your access to the site will be cut off one month from the day you subscribed. If you paid annually, your access to the site will be cut off one year from the day you subscribed.

The only problem with following that advice is that the price of our sites might go up, and if you don't cancel (if you keep a subscription current with us), you never have to pay more than the original price you signed up for, but if you cancel and then want to re-subscribe, you have to pay the new price.

For example, those who subscribe to GraphicSmash during the first month of business will be buying it at a very substantially discounted price ($19.95/year instead of $29.95/year), which will last for the lifetime of their subscription -- unless and until they cancel, in which case they will have to renew at the full rate.

It's jarring to have to pay to access digital content online, for some. But it's no more radical than paying for HBO (another recurring-billing service that provides high quality entertainment, but doesn't leave you with a physical product). If it's not for you yet, or ever, that's completely understandable. Believe me, there's not a single artist going into this who hasn't thought through the implications. They ultimately made the decision that this is the right model for their careers. There were quite a few people we approached who decided that this was not the right model. I wouldn't have it any other way -- we had a few folks on the early Modern Tales launch who hadn't really thought it through, and they quickly dropped by the wayside -- now we have a serious talk with everybody before they go onto one of our sites, to make absolutely certain that this is really what they want to do, and to help them set their expectation level to a realistic setting. (You know, things like: you understand that fewer people will read your comic when they have to pay for it, just as fewer people will take an ice cream cone when you're charging for it, as opposed to giving it away for free.)

I hope the above is helpful.

Thanks!

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Postby Stark on Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:38 am

Joey Manley wrote:Hi Stark, thanks for your honest thoughts about our business.


Well, thanks for taking the time to reply; it's not often you can get (almost) instant feedback from a company about its practices.

Fact is, to many people, the Modern Tales business model doesn't make *theoretical* sense. But theoretical sense doesn't put money in the bank. We've tried several variations on the pay/free mix, including the one you mention above, and every time, the one that has succeeded beyond and above all the others is our current model.


I have to say I'm surprised; certainly I am tempted to subscribe for a month, read the archives of the strips I'm interested in, cancel, and then read the free comics until such time as I miss one and then pay for another month to catch up. This because I don't feel like I'm getting anything for my ongoing subscription money beyond what I could get for free (yes, there's the 'Longplay' things, but I'm not really interested in them).

But I bow to your experience. It's quite possible I am strange.

I suppose at least I'm ethical enough not to download all the archives while I am subscribed.

On the issue of PayPal: PayPal actually takes chargebacks, just like a credit card. If a charge goes through PayPal that you don't want, PayPal will happily send your money back to you, provided you didn't get and use the product or service you desired.


Allegedly; however, their terms of service (which you agree to when you sign up) make it clear that they are not a bank, and you basically have no recourse against them if they should decide that actually you did use the service, even though you didn't.

I prefer to trust a credit card company, which has various statuory responsibilities and duties placed on it, in law, and designed to protect me the consumer, over a company which explicity disclaims all responsibility towards me. I'd rather rely on the law than on PayPal's goodwill, and the latter is what you're doing if you let them have direct access to your bank account.

It's jarring to have to pay to access digital content online, for some. But it's no more radical than paying for HBO (another recurring-billing service that provides high quality entertainment, but doesn't leave you with a physical product). If it's not for you yet, or ever, that's completely understandable.


I don't believe this is aimed at me. My problem is not paying for content online (I'm fine with that, in concept), it's paying an ongoing subscription charge for something I only read once: that is, the archives of a strip.

If my ongoing subscription bought me content on an ongoing basis, I would be fine with that. But the ongoing comic is available to me whether I pay or not. So what am I paying for? The archives, which are a one-off read, so seem deserving of a one-off charge.

However, if most people are not like me, you should of course tailor your business model to appeal to them rather than my (quite possibly rather eccentric) views. These are purely personal thoughts.

(Except the PayPal thing. That's real. Be aware that once they have your money they can do what they like with it. Do not give them a direct line to your finances!)
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Postby Joey Manley on Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:04 am

I don't believe this is aimed at me. My problem is not paying for content online (I'm fine with that, in concept), it's paying an ongoing subscription charge for something I only read once: that is, the archives of a strip.

If my ongoing subscription bought me content on an ongoing basis, I would be fine with that. But the ongoing comic is available to me whether I pay or not. So what am I paying for? The archives, which are a one-off read, so seem deserving of a one-off charge.


Yup, I started responding to you, but ended up responding to the entire thread. Sorry 'bout that.

We will likely be rolling out subscriber-only ongoing content (where the latest episode isn't free) at some point, just as we have on Modern Tales. On Modern Tales, the subscriber-only content is weekly full-length graphic novels and short story collections by people as well-known as Eddie Campbell ("From Hell") and Harvey Pekar ("American Splendor") all the way through to unknown webcartoonists. Look for something similar to debut on Graphic Smash at some point.

The daily free model accomplishes two tasks which counterbalance the easily acknowledgeable problems with it:

a). It gives people a reason to come back to the site, even if they haven't subscribed. How many times have you looked at a subscription site, sampled the limited, non-updating free content, and decided not to subscribe? I'm guessing almost every time you've gone to a subscription site, that's what happens (that's my experience in my own case). If you don't make that decision to buy that very first time, you never go back. With the daily free content, which you can actually follow for free, you have a reason to keep coming back. At some point, some people will decide that they like the material enough (and that there's enough material they don't have access to) that they want to subscribe, and support the site.

b). It gives webmasters somewhere to link. Most people won't link to a blank subscription wall, or a static free sample. But lots of people link to the page where the latest Fancy Froglin or Rip & Teri strip can be read -- because it's considered a worthwhile link, something that people can actually enjoy, without having to pay before enjoying.

I think that's why the model works. But we're in the realm of theory here, anyway, and I prefer the realm of direct experience!

On PayPal: maybe I'm just too trusting. ;)

Joey
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Postby Maritza Campos on Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:11 am

Good luck and I hope there is Faans for years to come, T!

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Postby K. Ivan Ruppert on Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:42 am

When I heard that GS would be $30 a year, I was actually tempted, but now that I know that it's $20/year forever if I start now, I'm really piqued. What else will be on GS? Thirty titles, you say? Can you name them?

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Postby Joey Manley on Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:28 am

K. Ivan Ruppert wrote:When I heard that GS would be $30 a year, I was actually tempted, but now that I know that it's $20/year forever if I start now, I'm really piqued. What else will be on GS? Thirty titles, you say? Can you name them?

-K


We've announced many of the titles already, but not all of them. T's press release is somewhere on Comixpedia, and also on my news posting at ModernTales.com this week:

http://www.moderntales.com/series.php?n ... ew=current

From today through the launch, we'll be running previews of some of the series on the GraphicSmash.com homepage, one per day, including some that were not previously announced. Today, for example, we're previewing "Stealing Justice" by DC writer Paul D. Storrie ("Gotham Girls"), Jason Howard and Terry Boyle. Tomorrow will be yet another announcement. And also the next day. And so on. Check in every day for more info:

http://www.graphicsmash.com/

Joey
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Postby K. Ivan Ruppert on Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:40 pm

Well, I read three of the titles already (Fans, Digger, and Mnemesis), so it looks like you may well have a sale here..

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Postby Multae Kappae on Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:24 pm

zzzzZZZZzzzz... {snort} -- Huh?, wha?
:o
whoa, Faans pay-per-view... oh well, there goes $30...
:(
Can't say you don't deserve it though, T
:D
Hasn't this whole 'freedom' thing has taken the fun out of making fun of French people?
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