Poll; Can Socialism ever work in modern society?

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Can Communism/Socialism work in the modern world? (Prepare for leading questions)

definitely. Have faith in the inevitable dawn of socialism, as predicted by Marx.
1
17%
It could work, possibly, if people would agree with each other
4
67%
Who would want it anyway! Greed and rules OK!
1
17%
 
Total votes : 6

Poll; Can Socialism ever work in modern society?

Postby Call Me Karl on Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:07 pm

welcome! Your input is much appreciated. Please take time to fill in the poll and leave any comments you fell nessecary. Im sure you can probably already tell what my position is. :roll:
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

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Postby BabyJ on Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:10 pm

Everything works as long as you ignore it's flaws!
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Postby Dezro on Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:52 pm

I figure anarcho-communism could work if you got a shitload of robots to do all the work.

Otherwise no.
Where did that come from?
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Postby LCARS on Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:13 pm

Yeeaahh, so far every communist nation has done very badly.

The best economic model in my book is to send all you money directly to me.
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Postby theangryQ on Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:15 pm

I don't have faith in any economic system so far, honestly, because they all ignore nature. They all behave as if there will always be enough resources, which, isn't remotely true. Maybe if there was some system that took natural resources into account...
Crime is down and, oddly enough, so is tourism.
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Postby Dezro on Sun Apr 13, 2003 8:06 pm

I dunno, Q. They say other planets have resources we can plunder when all ours are gone.

Anyway, robots are good at resource management. They're robots!
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Postby theangryQ on Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:45 pm

...Providing we can grow food on other planets. Which isn't bloody likely. Or that we can develop space travel to the point where it's cheap and efficient in time. Which also isn't bloody likely. Or that we'd be happy with such an existence some refer to as the "planet of weeds" in which the only things left are the rather unpleasant creatures that survive in unhospitable conditions: rats and cockroaches. Which also doesn't seem terribly likely.

We still have that stupid, stupid frontier mentality. There'll always be more. And when we've used up everything on earth, we'll go into outer-space! Yeah! That's totally plausible! And when we've eaten up the other planets (exponential population growth being what it is), we'll just find some other solar system. It can't be that far away, right?
Crime is down and, oddly enough, so is tourism.
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Postby *Kludge* on Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:15 pm

We might want to find out by declaring one nation an international socialist reserve. There, you'd have an actual socialist society which the USA didn't try to fuck up.

Then we could find out whether it would work or not.
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Postby BabyJ on Sun Apr 13, 2003 11:44 pm

They might have weapons of mass production destruction.
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Postby JimRob on Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:52 am

I reckon socialism could've worked if capitalism hadn't got its foot in the door first. So... no, not any more. And that's taking 'worked' in the same sense that capitalism currently 'works'.

I agree with Q.
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Yeah, but...

Postby Call Me Karl on Mon Apr 14, 2003 1:11 am

If Marx was right, as soon as capitalism begins to hinder the productive forces, (Which it is, causing world recession by overproduction and draining natural resources) theen it will be replaced by a new system naturally. Marx thought this system would be socialism.

Unfortuanately capitalism has been keeping the evolution down by using America's economic might. If History had continued as it has in the past countries would all have been set against the US 60 years ago as it was the most powerful country.
Communis could work, but only if it was allowed to trade with oter socialist countries. Contrary to popular belief, no country has so far acheivd communism, except for Russia very breifly.
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence."
Sun Tzu; The Art Of War

http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=589802
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Postby justinpie on Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:30 am

I often wonder if China could make it as a capitalist. I mean, I know we're supposed to hate communism because it was in the Scriptures or something, but honestly, when you've got that many people together with so few resources, is there any other way to make it work aside from some sort of socialist regime?

Again, "work" is only argued in the sense of not currently failing in some horribly desperate way, which some would say China is.
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Postby theangryQ on Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:37 am

Well, China was much more ready for it. They've worked under the idea of self-sacrifice for the common good, the individual works only to serve the community. That's how they've survived for thousands of years; they've had to. I can't really see westerners picking up a group mentality so easily; we've been very much conditioned to this idea of rugged individualism (though no one's really an individual; no matter how much of a recluse you are you do depend on others for food, shelter, companionship, etc. unless you live in a shack in the woods).
Crime is down and, oddly enough, so is tourism.
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Postby theangryQ on Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:12 am

You might want to look into the ecosocialist movement, Karl. There's some really interesting things going on there, a fusion of red and green that seems to have great potential. Look for Joel Kovel's book, "The Enemy of Nature: The End of Capitalism or the End of the World?" (scroll down for the review). I've seen the guy speak. He has some fascinating ideas (though, like so many revolutionary leftist intellectuals, the guy has no charisma, sadly). One of his main arguments, I remember is that capitalism requires perpetual growth, which simply isn't possible.
Crime is down and, oddly enough, so is tourism.
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CHina unsuccessful

Postby Call Me Karl on Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:44 am

Justinpie said that China is currently failing, but his is currently untrue.

China has the fastest growing economy in the world, with no hint of stopping. Smug chinese businessmen would poin t out that if it continues at the same rate then by 2007 it will be the largest economy in the world. Unfortunately by opening themselves to world markets the Chinese have had to ditch some of their principles, meaning that Mcdonalds and other corporations have a foot in the door. If they had prevented that I could only be happy for them.

Thanks for the book recommendation, ill order it from my local library (Another public service about to be withdrawn, so it would seem)
Very true about capitalisms self destructive nature. The bueaty of Marx is that he recognised this, and the main reason he believed that socialism would arrive naturally was that socialism has a managed production, limiting destruction of resources. what always surprised me about the former communist nations ws that they did not succeed even though they could pool tremendous resources into one project.

Shame about the lack of charisma. It would only take a bit of character and media attention to be elected in Britain. Im just afraid a dangerous right winger will be elected.

by the way, thanks all fo4r responding.
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence."
Sun Tzu; The Art Of War

http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=589802
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Postby LCARS on Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:35 am

Well, you're alittle of on the time table there, China is slated to become the world's second largest economy by 2030.

We're also slated to be on Mars by then... so we'll just see.
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Postby BabyJ on Mon Apr 14, 2003 1:06 pm

All of my time travelling 1950's friends are very disappointed in this day today.
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Postby LCARS on Mon Apr 14, 2003 2:31 pm

MAN! I can't believe you keep listening to those squares!
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I wish tv would explore THE PAST more often.

Postby BabyJ on Mon Apr 14, 2003 3:02 pm

I guess it IS 'square' to work hard and put food on the table and
buy you clothes to wear and keep a roof over your head!

YOU UNGRATEFUL HIPPY! You go to your room and do your homework!
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Postby theangryQ on Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:05 pm

In that vein, there's another great book to look for: "The Way We Never Were." It's a great book about the overwhelming nostalgia today and why statements like "We had family values back then!" and "We always stood on our own two feet!" are total crap.
Crime is down and, oddly enough, so is tourism.
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Postby terra incognita on Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:00 pm

if karl's last name isn't strauss, i'm not interested.
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Postby LCARS on Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:54 pm

Man, I really wish I could find a .wav of "The Hymn To Red October" to play in this thread ala Alan's spam song.

Not that this is spam mind you. It's just a really cool communist-sounding song. :)
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Postby Call Me Karl on Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:02 am

If you have win mx and search for the Soviet National anthem you should find it there.
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence."
Sun Tzu; The Art Of War

http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=589802
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Postby theangryQ on Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:06 am

Nooo! Spam songs are really annoying to anyone listening to music while browsing the boards. I don't need to hear cheerful burly men grunting in a melodious manner while I'm trying to listen to Sleater-Kinney.
Crime is down and, oddly enough, so is tourism.
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Postby Call Me Karl on Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:21 am

You are obviously lucky enough to never have heard a Welsh male voice choir in its death throes. (at least thats what it sounded like)
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence."
Sun Tzu; The Art Of War

http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=589802
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