To draw our people back... (commentary, please!)

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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To draw our people back... (commentary, please!)

Postby Silver Adept on Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:13 pm

I just received two copies of this e-mail. Kept one, deleted the other, and thought you guys might want to pick it apart. Comments welcome.
-----------------------------------------------------------
DEAR FRIENDS,
"DO NOT FORGET"



I sat in a movie theater watching "Schindler's List," asked myself, "Why didn't the Jews fight back?"

Now I know why.

I sat in a movie theater, watching "Pearl Harbor" and asked myself, "Why weren't we prepared?"

Now I know why.

Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people.

On September 11, dozens of capable airplane passengers allowed themselves to be overpowered by a handful of poorly armed terrorists because they did not comprehend the depth of hatred that motivated their captors.

On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others. Many political pundits, pacifists and media personnel want us to forget the carnage. They say we must focus on the bravery of the rescuers and ignore the cowardice of the killers. They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators. Major television stations have announced they will assist the healing process by not replaying devastating footage of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers.

I will not be manipulated.

I will not pretend to understand.

I will not forget.

I will not forget the liberal media who abused freedom of the press to kick our country when it was vulnerable and hurting.

I will not forget that CBS anchor Dan Rather preceded President Bush's address to the nation with the snide remark, "No matter how you feel about him, he is still our president."

I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush's motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, "We're all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington."

And I will not forget that ABC's Mark Halperin warned if reporters weren't informed of every little detail of this war, they aren't "likely -- nor should they be expected -- to show deference."

I will not isolate myself from my fellow Americans by pretending an attack on the USS Cole in Yemen was not an attack on the United States of America.

I will not forget the Clinton administration equipped Islamic terrorists and their supporters with the world's most sophisticated telecommunications equipment and encryption technology, thereby compromising America's ability to trace terrorist radio, cell phone, land lines, faxes and modem communications.

I will not be appeased with pointless, quick retaliatory strikes like those perfected by the previous administration.

I will not be comforted by "feel-good, do nothing" regulations like the silly "Have your bags been under your control?" question at the airport.

I will not be influenced by so called,"antiwar demonstrators" who exploit the right of expression to chant anti-American obscenities.

I will not forget the moral victory handed the North Vietnamese by American war protesters who reviled and spat upon the returning soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines.

I will not be softened by the wishful thinking of pacifists who chose
reassurance over reality.

I will embrace the wise words of Prime Minister Tony Blair who told Labor Party conference, "They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 7,000 but 70,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it?

There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must!"

I will force myself to:


-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh

- experience the loss
- remember the hatred..

I sat in a movie theater, watching "Private Ryan" and asked myself, "Where did they find the courage?"

Now I know.

We have no choice.
Living without liberty is not living.

-- Ed Evans, MGySgt., USMC (Ret.)
Not as lean, Not as mean, But still a Marine.

Keep this going until every living American has read it and memorized it so we don't make the same mistake again.
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Postby Mistrunner on Sat Mar 08, 2003 9:52 pm

Alright *cracks knuckles*

I think will explain my view on this paper by revealing my personal philosophy, rather than by going over each and every little point. So here it goes:

Overall, I would not call myself a "nice person."

I'm friendly. I joke, I laugh, and in fact, (most of the time) I am not very serious. I'm not mean, I don't consider myself evil, and I do my best to live up to the tenents of the Order of the Knights of Jubal, so why do I say that?

Some of my heroes are Machiavelli, Nietzche, and Sun Tze. I admire Napoleon and criticize Jefferson. From the three I mentioned at the start, I've learned one thing about myself, and everyone else, we are all being manipulated. Always. And we are manipulating people, always. Whether we want to or not, everyone is always manipulating and being manipulated by everyone else. Power is the ability to utilize your ability to manipulate others, whether it be through politics, money, gossip, fists, words, or guns. Insight is the ability to realize and dampen the manipulations upon yourself. If one had infinite insight, one would never be manipulated. If one had infinite power, one could manipulate anything. Fortunately, this is not the case.

Are we being manipulated by the liberal media? Of course. Are we being manipulated by the conservative media? Of course. Are we being manipulated by the government? Of course. Are we being manipulated by the protestors? Of course. Media, Government, Business. These three are entirely centered around the concept of manipulation.

What can you do? Gain insight. You can do this through knowledge. Sometimes, pretending to know is a great tool. People slip up in manipulation when they think you know more than you do. Just don't buy the lie.

Each one of us has the capacity for evil, because we all want things to go our way, and we all manipulate. Evil, imo, is when we decide to take from the wants and desires of others and give to ourselves when we manipulate. Good, imo, is when we temporarily forget (or put to the side) our own wants and desires, and use our ability to manipulate people and the world to provide for those who are in need but lack a way to manipulate people and the world around them.

So what do I think about this person? I pity them. They only mention one side. But I realize that it is another attempt at manipulation.

I will force myself to:


-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh

- experience the loss
- remember the hatred..


The unstated line is "You should force yourself to." The rest of an article is a buildup. If you heard just the above, you might wonder it's context, and might agree or disagree with it. The article's point is this, "I will not be manipulated, for I already have been. So you should open yourself up into being manipulated by my side."

I'm not a nice person. I'm a wee bit cynical. But when I manipulate others, I try to do it for the betterment of everyone, particularly themselves. Why? I find great joy in making others more open, more awake, and with a better understanding of who they are. If I didn't, I might not do it just because it is right, but of course I will never know.

I do know one thing: The more someone attempts to manipulate me, the less likely I am to do anything for them. Which is why I am against war. If people are dead, I can't make them more awake, or with a better understanding of who they are. And the people trying to start a war need to motivate you. A lot. It takes a lot to want to lay down your life, especially for a questionable republic such as the US. Fear and anger cloud thought, and this disturbs insight. So the best way to make people easier to manipulate is with fear and anger. That is the purpose of articles like this. You have to be able to completely reject the person as the worst sort of fool, criminal, or liar in order to completely remove all of the fear and hate that is put into these words. Of course, in doing that, you make their words manipulate you against their position, and you are still being manipulated. Dangerous choices. And if even a little of it sticks, but they pound it in again and again with enough people, you get enough to support, or at least not oppose, a war.

That is my little opinion. Rant and rave for it or against it, it makes good conversation.

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Postby Dafodarian on Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:59 am

Hey, it's another 'PsychOp' moment. Everyone got your rose-coloured mirrorshades ready?

Seriously, I have to say I have a fair amount sympathy, even common feeling for the Ex-Marine writer of this tract - he obviously feels very strongly that he and his country have been 'done down' by the various protagonists in this situation. But then, the marines' watchword always was 'Semper Fi' (for all I dislike the abbreviation of it), and so he is standing up for what he has sworn to always be faithful to. As such, I accord him the respect due to a man of principle and honour.


That said, there are some few minor issues that, were I cynical, I might take issue with...
<init cynic.h;>
First up - Mistrunner. Nice to see there's people about who've read the old masters - where would we be without them? And S.A. - thanks for pulling this one under the microscope for us all.

If we take it from the top - The first four lines are more-or-less a semantic null. Admittedly, they are an emotion-laden null, but sentiment and reason are not the same thing. Similarly, it's interesting to notice in the next section that 'Civilised' and 'Evil' are set up as opposites. Are we to assume that everyone in civilisation is good? If so, I must take exception to the backward native of some distant country who appears to have travelled thousands of miles just to break into my car last night...

Also - the emotional implication is that the 'Evil' and 'Uncivilised' people in this case are the perpetrators of the twin towers incident? Let's see, they would appear to be broadly from the Arabic culture? Remind me, who was it that was carefully stockpiling, and improving on, for that matter, classical literature when the denizens of Europe and large chunks of asia were busy playing at 'Barbarian Hordes' and torching libraries for kicks? That would be the... Arabic civilisations, perhaps?

But of course, that doesn't count, because it was before America was founded, perhaps?

Next section - It is indeed a shame that said passengers did not resist, as far as I know, but then, consider that the writer of this tract is a Marine, in intent even if not by the strict rules of the corps, and presumably has been one for a long time. Naturally, he has made the commitment to exchanging his life for the good of his country. I can understand how he could expect the passengers to rise up and use their 'Capable' skills - but how many of them are actually even with hints of combat skill? Perhaps a handful with some self-defence skills, a bit of laser tag experience, ande the occasional target-shooter? And yes, I can see how even the everyman will rise up when 'Evil Terrorist #1' says "Now we shall crash into your twin towers, and kill you all and thousands of others!!! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!".

Then again, it is always a mistake to confuse zealotry with stupidity. No doubt, said terrorist was not an extra from a saturday-morning superhero cartoon, and said something more along the lines of "We are taking this plane, and all of you, hostage. Please remain calm, and no harm will come to you. We will be altering the plane's flight-path to a different airport, and once our demands have been heard, you will be released unharmed. Thank you for your co-operation". This is reason, backed up by the threat presented by a visible weapon. Now, even our Ex-marine writer, who's sworn to defend his country - is he going to throw his life away for the sake of some airline company's schedule? It seems unlikely (at least to me, although I must admit to not being a Marine).


Alas, I have a lecture now - be back in about two hours to continue ranting...
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Postby Dafodarian on Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:16 am

I return, to continue picking apart someone else's heart-felt emotions. Doesn't that make me feel good about myself?

Not really. But it's better than just following the emotional track, or for that matter just consigning it to the recycle bin in the sky...

Anyway, I was just finishing up on the comment 'Could not comprehend the depth of hatred'. That's like saying "I should have drowned my neighbour's dog as a puppy, but I couldn't comprehend that it would get rabies and try to kill my family". You know it could happen, but it's unlikely, it hasn't happened before, and even if it did, you didn't know it would happen until it did. It's hardly a secret in international politics (at least outside the American borders) that, for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion, 'America' (being the semi-mythic stereotype of the country, rather than the country itself) is hardly well-loved. So the possibility was there. What was not realised, simply because it had never (to my knowledge) happened before, was that a direct strike could be enacted against America, on America's own turf. As far as I know, no foreign power has really tried that since the American Revolution, when the English government sent a comparative handful of troops to keep the locals getting too uppity while they dealt with more important situations elsewhere in the empire.

Hence the assumption apparently made by many (or some, or even very few - but very few who get a lot of media exposure) Americans, that they are somehow the golden god-children, untouchable by us mere mortal outsiders, scrabbling in the dirt beyond the borders. To quote one of my more pithy physics lecturers, "Evidence implies... otherwise".

At this point - sorry. I know a lot of my readers are probably American, and as such I don't doubt (from the fact they read this board, if nothing else) that they are all, more or less, reasonable people. I'm dealing with the cultural stereotype, not with actual people - if it helps, you're welcome to dismiss my views as those of a bowler-hatted, toffee-nosed Englishman, speaking past his starched upper lip. I'm not (I'm Welsh, for starters), but I understand that it's on a par, stereotype-wise.

The next part -
"Some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others". Let's see, was this military, economic, or social dominance? And how can I best express my knee-jerk reaction to this?
<Load Childishness.h;>
"Hey, Mr. Kettle... You're black, you are!"
<Unload Childishness.h;>
Seriously, allow me to mention certain points - for instance the role of terrorism as a tool of a group in a weak situation. Does anyone else get images of a six-year-old kicking a professional bodybuilder in the shins? All comic visualisations aside, there is little doubt that the forces of America are (and, indeed, proved to be) more than capable of hammering the terrorists into oblivion in a straight fight. Perhaps that arsenal of nuclear warheads along with delivery systems which should be able to span the globe might have something to do with that? Before we ever account for a massive population density, which could be turned to a military use? (Not that I'm saying they would, again I'm talking perception rather than fact).

The bravery of the rescuers I don't fault. It's a shame it took something like this for people to notice it en-masse, but still. When you consider that my government is still refusing to pay firemen a fair wage, a little focus on their bravery would be no bad thing... Again, that's off-topic, though.

Now, I get to a comment I take serious exception to, and I expect, even on a board as fair and free as this one, to get flamed like a vietnamese strongpoint for it.

<Load heatshield.h(grade:re-entry)>
"ignore the cowardice of the killers."
Can you spot the word I object to? It's not 'ignore', although I can think of better words to use for what the 'political pundits, pacifists and media personnel' were probably trying to achieve. It's not 'killers' - a word which is undeniable. It's not even the 'the's or the 'of'. It's 'cowardice'.

Okay, if you're done spitting teeth, I'll explain my position. I don't condone what happened. I don't endorse what these people did. I don't even think it was terribly smart - they'd've done better to take out some other symbol of 'Americanity' that didn't involve massive loss of life, and hence even robbed the Americans of the upswell of international compassion and support. They were unforgivably dumb, and far, far worse, they murdered innocents.

On the other hand, if we take a moment to look through their eyes. Not the eyes of the previously mentioned 'Evil Terrorist #1', but rather 'Mr. Selim Haddad' (A randomly chosen name, common in the middle east, according to my (somewhat outdated) copy of the Guinness book of names). He sees his country, way of life, future, religious freedom, and everything else that makes his world worth living in being ground to dust because the 'Americans' say that's the way it should be. And all man's woes he piles upon the Americas' white hump, until, were his chest a mortar he would fire the shell of his heart to explode upon them.

Yes, it's badly paraphrased, but you get the idea. He believes something, be it right or wrong, and he has the will to stand on the line and say 'This shall not be!'. He sees a wrong, and he gives his life in the hopes of writing it.

In some ways, we should all aspire to lay down our lives with such devotion when our principles demand it. Call it misguided, call it hateful, even call it evil, if you must, but don't ever tell me that laying down your life for your beliefs is the act of a coward.

Given that the writer, as a Marine, has made this same commitment to his principles, it's a shame he has to cheapen his stated enemy's sacrifice this way.

<Unload heatshield.h>

Okay, I'll come down off the soapbox now. If you want to tear down my logic, it's only fair - having gone on about the tract's writer, I've done as bad here... <Emote EryGrin;>

I don't really understand what the replaying of footage has to do with anything more than emotional effect - and even that was rapidly running out after the fifth day of endless reruns. The only reason I can see for showing more of the clips would be to try and drum up 'gut-reaction' in the emotion-led and the unthinking. That smacks of hatemongering, which is more-or-less what he's accusing others of doing, later - but I'll look at that in it's proper time.

Manipulation, understanding, forgetting. That's your choice, although the former was rather dealt with by Mistrunner. But these are your choices - it doesn't make them wrong, or right. And it certainly doesn't make them mine... Again, if we're looking for deeper meaning (or even superficial meaning), they're a null variable. Emotionally laden, again, but still null - an opinion doesn't have any formal role in a debate.

Liberal media - I presume this was American media? Britain was positively boot-licky and all saccharine sympathy. Enough to give you instant psychologic diabetes before the week was out.

The snide remark - Perhaps it's the way he said it? As words on the screen, it works just as well as a comment of solidarity - that whatever your personal sympathy, the country as a whole is led by the president, and it is time to put aside political factionism in favour of Unity. I'll have to take this one from people who actually saw it...

As to the president being away, where was he? I never knew he was anywhere... And questioning his motives - "Oh no! How could anyone think the President of America could have ulterior motives?". He's a man, like any other. People didn't take on so when Clinton was getting 'favours' from his interns (or perhaps they did, and I just never noticed...).

I think I need background before I can comment at all on Halperin's comment, possibly something to do with freedom of speech?

Again, uh? What's this about the Cole? I must have missed that one, too...

I'm not even going to heatshield for the next one, because if anyone takes issue with it, I'll extend an open invitation to flame me in private (I believe at least one of my Emails is on my profile somewhere, if not, try Symposium_Central_Router@hotmail.com - it's one of my old gaming accounts), rather than to flamewar this board.

Now, I take personal exception (and hence unbalanced opinion) with this comment. It's not so much that the americans support terrorist groups - we've all done that in our time. Just look at Pol Pot, who invented ethnic cleansing for the modern age - my country payrolled, trained, and openly supported him! What really gets me isn't that he's objecting to bankrolling and supplying terrorists - I don't think any reasonable person would take issue with that! What gets me is that he objects because it compromises America's ability to track them. That's tantamount to saying 'It's okay for you dirty little foreigners to murder each other at our whim, but you mustn't mess with us!'. I knew that the IRA was being supported by America, too, but that doesn't make it right.

On reflection, though, it's amazing how comparatively little it took in their own back yard to make America realise that international terrorism isn't a game you can just fiddle about with for kicks. One good thing is that all of a sudden, the IRA's funding dried up after the towers incident.

Yeah, okay, rant over. I have family in Ireland, and used to have more - it's not an excuse, but it might be an explanation.

Next comment - fair, even sensible. Strikes of the type seen are singularly pointless in trying to deal with a distributed network of cells like a terrorist organisation. Note the lack of a suggested alternative - I'd have expected better from a Master Gunny, but hey - he's proving better at the rhetoric than I would have expected, so I guess it balances out...

Again, fair enough - it's true (and blatantly obvious) that these regs, for the most part, do nothing tangible. However - I'm not blind. I don't need someone to point out a populace-reassurance-measure to me.

Anti-war demonstrators. Okay, this might be a specific subset? The ones I know aren't particularly anti-american, they're just anti-warmongering-lunatic. If they feel America's stepped into that territory, perhaps there's some reason why?

The North Vietnamese's "Moral Victory" - Is this really a factor, or just an opportunity to air an old grudge? Note the only service capitalised is the Marines... And possibly people felt that the Northern Vietnamese were in the right, when they decided to do this?

Wishful thinking...Reassurance over reality - spoken like a true military man. Plan for the worst. But perhaps not taking steps to ensure your plans are needed would be a plan? The other half of that maxim is, after all, 'Hope for the best'...

No moral inhibition. I refer you to the previous 'pot & kettle' comment. And yes, I doubt, if only on the grounds that had they intended it, they could have caused one hell of a lot more damage in their one easy strike. And I don't really believe that you should be tarring an entire nation with one brush, especially not the brush of a particularly nasty minority. (Yes, I know that's what I've done in this entire message. Hey, at least I said sorry about it...)

Which terror in particular? The terror of having planes dropped on us? The terror that people could be infiltrating our cities, intending to kill us in our beds? (Why bother, when there are no doubt local 'Youth gangs' who would be more than glad to deal with the latter, and are a far more present problem?)

As to the summing up, I think Mistrunner already pointed out the problems with it.

And for the final comment - We always have a choice. We have the choice to make the right decision, and the choice to stick by it when we've made it.

We also have a responsibility, however, to consider whether the choices we've made are the right ones.

Taken as a whole, I stand by my repeated description of this writing as a tract. It shows all the hallmarks of a religious pamphlet, such as an appeal to faith, an assumption that the reader espouses the same basic value-set as the writer, and an intent to stir emotion in the reader. However, religions are not the only ones to do this.

Far more sinister (Oh, hark at me. Now I'm even using 'their' language) are the uses of emotion to overpower reason espoused by dictators, and suchlike.
"Don't ask why you're the master race, you know it's true! Reach within you, and you will feel the truth of it, that you are better than these <Insert perjorative term for random racial/social/other subgroup>. You know it, don't you!" (Crowd screams 'Yes', or 'Ja', or similar suitable comment)

I can't speak for the rest of you, but faced with such cheap rabble-rousing techniques, I'm rather forced to reply -

"Master Gunnery Sergeant Ed Evans. Sorry, but this is one knight who's not buying."


Edit - My word, that's one serious rant, isn't it. Sorry about that. Be warned of the dangers of having too much free time...
Last edited by Dafodarian on Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zodo on Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:49 pm

I'm not going to provide any argument to the previous two posts, because no amount of words I place on other peoples' screens is going to sway their emotionally based opinions once they've been made.

I will state, for the record, however, that I agree with the words of MGySgt. Evans. I've thought about it alot in the past year and a half, and have come to the conclusion that had I been on one of those planes, I would have put up a fight.

I realize that not everyone has the nerve to do that, but this is just me talking, speaking only for myself.

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Postby Dafodarian on Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:13 am

zodo wrote:I've thought about it alot in the past year and a half, and have come to the conclusion that had I been on one of those planes, I would have put up a fight.


Kudos to you for it. As I said - while I might not agree with the niceties of opinion, I respect anyone who'll risk (or even outright sacrifice) their life for what they believe.

I just hope when my time comes, it doesn't find me cowering under the table... :-?
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Postby Josh the Aspie on Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:57 am

I don't nessisarily feel that apeals to emotion are a bad thing. Logic and reason, while well and good, aren't (and shouldn't be) the only realm of consideration when making decisions. After all, we all swore an oath involving compasion.

On the other hand, I don't feel that inspiring bitterness or hate towards other groups to try to bring people to your way of thinking is a desirable or (in the long term) worth while type of emotional apeal.

I respect the fact that this man refuses to forget what has happened. However I feel that there are many things that deserve a larger place in our memory. Such as the people who risked or suffered death or injury in order to aid those who where traped inside the fallen buildings in new york. Such as our brave soldiers over seas. Such as those familys who now deal day to day with the loss of loved ones from this whole extended ordeal.

The biggest part of his message that I take issue with is that he is seperating 'them' and 'us' in this message. There is easily reasoning with many of the soldiers of Iraq. Some of these soldiers have already abandoned the Iraqi military. Many of the people of Afganistan (spelling?) seem to be resonable a well.
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Postby redwulf25_ci on Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:31 pm

zodo wrote:I'm not going to provide any argument to the previous two posts, because no amount of words I place on other peoples' screens is going to sway their emotionally based opinions once they've been made.

I will state, for the record, however, that I agree with the words of MGySgt. Evans. I've thought about it alot in the past year and a half, and have come to the conclusion that had I been on one of those planes, I would have put up a fight.

I realize that not everyone has the nerve to do that, but this is just me talking, speaking only for myself.

-Zodo, CI


I'm not sure anyone here would say that they wouldn't put up a fight on a plane being hi-jacked. After all, that's the "Right thing to do" <insert dramatic music and trade mark symbol here>

Bombing the ever-loving hell out of a place that has no proven ties to said hi-jacking however? Responded to the origional post on the OTHER KOJ board. Just a sec while I go get it.
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Postby redwulf25_ci on Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:37 pm


Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people.


First, I'm responding to the writer, it is my understanding that Silver Adapt did not write this.

Second: Way to dehumanize the enemy! Not only can't we understand them, they're EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!


On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others.



Like America seems to be. Heard something about when this is over "holding Iraq's oil in trust for the Kuwati <sp?> people". Worked so well with the Native Americans money didn't it?


I will not be manipulated.



You're doing a good job of being manipulated so far, why stop now?

I will not forget the liberal media who abused freedom of the press to kick our country when it was vulnerable and hurting.



Ah yes, the LIBERAL media myth. Bet they also think the media is "run by jews" like a person I spoke with when I was working for AT&T cable customer service said when giving her reason for canceling cable.

I will not forget that CBS anchor Dan Rather preceded President Bush's address to the nation with the snide remark, "No matter how you feel about him, he is still our president."



Unfortunatly he is, no matter how we feel about it. The supream court made it so despite his loss of the popular election.

I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush's motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, "We're all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington."



Who isn't? Washington sure lied to us often enough.


And I will not forget that ABC's Mark Halperin warned if reporters weren't informed of every little detail of this war, they aren't "likely -- nor should they be expected -- to show deference."



NO ONE should be expected to show deference. Respect where it is deserved but NEVER deference.


I will not be influenced by so called,"antiwar demonstrators" who exploit the right of expression to chant anti-American obscenities.



SO CALLED???!!!??? They are exercisising (NOT exploiting!) what is not only their RIGHT but their obligation to protest something that they disagree with. As far as anti-American obsenitys, well America isn't doing much to be proud of right now, and people seem to think that just because they disagreed with us about war anti German, and French obsenitys are ok.


I will force myself to:


-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh

- experience the loss




A lot of that going on with inocent civilians in Iraq, the first death caused by our bombing was that of a cab driver who's only crime was pulling over to make a phone call.

Finaly, this war is not right, it is not even handed or just, and there is precious little mercy or honor in it.
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Postby Silver Adept on Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:24 pm

Firstly, this is not meant to be any sort of personal attack at all. And I'm not saying that I agree with the writer... I've got more than an earful to give him, but not here. I wanted to see what the Knights thought about it.

redwulf25_ci wrote:

Second: Way to dehumanize the enemy! Not only can't we understand them, they're EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!


A necessary part of war. If you see the enemy as an equal, then you're less inclined to kill and/or use scorched earth tactics. Iraq is dehumanizing US forces as well.


Like America seems to be. Heard something about when this is over "holding Iraq's oil in trust for the Kuwaiti people". Worked so well with the Native Americans money didn't it?


I'm more worried that they'll simply drag their heels in creating a true Iraqi state because they want to exploit the resource areas a little too easily. Kuwait has nothing to do with it, really, other than possibly providing a front to the operation.



I will not be manipulated.
You're doing a good job of being manipulated so far, why stop now?


I could say the same thing for you as well. Bear that in mind.

Ah yes, the LIBERAL media myth. Bet they also think the media is "run by jews" like a person I spoke with when I was working for AT&T cable customer service said when giving her reason for canceling cable.


Low blow. Bringing something like that into the mix is unwarranted. One can easily refute the Liberal Media argument without that reference. Especially since it has almost nothing to do with it.

Unfortunatly he is, no matter how we feel about it. The Supreme Court made it so despite his loss of the popular election.


And so, your duty as a citizen is to respect that decision. This is the reason the Electoral College still exists, to prevent possible tampering with voting. Now, whether or not there was tampering and if anyone stepped in at the wrong place is still debatable.


I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush's motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, "We're all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington."

Who isn't? Washington sure lied to us often enough.


Some of it, I'm sure, necessary to prevent classified information from being leaked. In general, though, the trend does seem toward "spin" rather than "truth". Perhaps we should find out how to reverse that flow.


NO ONE should be expected to show deference. Respect where it is deserved but NEVER deference.


That seems out of place. To defer is often a sign of respect, and often, of trust. A lack of trust prevents things from working properly.


SO CALLED???!!!??? They are exercising (NOT exploiting!) what is not only their RIGHT but their obligation to protest something that they disagree with. As far as anti-American obsenites, well America isn't doing much to be proud of right now, and people seem to think that just because they disagreed with us about war, anti-German and anti-French obsenites are ok.


Civil disobedience can occur without any form of country-bashing, be it our own or anothers'. In this, I certainly agree. The protestors have their place and are needed. I would be far more worried if there were no protestors than I am at the amount there are. America, on the other hand, is doing plenty to be proud of, it just doesn't make the headlines.


I will force myself to:
-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh
- experience the loss

A lot of that going on with inocent civilians in Iraq, the first death caused by our bombing was that of a cab driver who's only crime was pulling over to make a phone call.


And those who were attacked in the Twin Towers, their only crime was going to work. In war, civilian casualties are to be minimized, but they cannot be negated. It is unfortunate, but it will always happen.

Finaly, this war is not right, it is not even handed or just, and there is precious little mercy or honor in it.


Saddam Hussein is not completely blameless... it just happens to be that he's in the sights now and the President chooses to do something about it. He could just as easily turn on North Korea or some of our allied governments that are fairly repressive in their own right. The war appears to be conducted for the wrong reasons, and that's why many protest it. Under different circumstances, one could easily see greater approval ratings for it. Right now, however, could be the only opportunity, even if unpopular.

I don't know who wrote it, but there is an old statement to this effect, "It is the army that grieves that is victorious." Perhaps this should be adopted by the millitary as a reminder.

What I would like to see is the Book of Names. Every commanding officer should have one, and when one of his subordinates (even a private under a General's command) dies, he must write the name in his book. Those directly commanding the deceased then must hand-deliver the letter of their subordinate's death to his family. The Book of Names must be with every commander at all times in war, and placed prominently in times of peace... perhaps then people will realize the costs of war.
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Postby redwulf25_ci on Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:09 pm

Silver Adept wrote:

I will not be manipulated.
You're doing a good job of being manipulated so far, why stop now?


I could say the same thing for you as well. Bear that in mind.


I've made up my own mind based on evidence I've seen, the origional author on the other hand seems to be taking everything he's told by the government at face value regardless of evidence against it.

Unfortunatly he is, no matter how we feel about it. The Supreme Court made it so despite his loss of the popular election.


And so, your duty as a citizen is to respect that decision. This is the reason the Electoral College still exists, to prevent possible tampering with voting. Now, whether or not there was tampering and if anyone stepped in at the wrong place is still debatable.[/quote]

My reluctant duty to ACCEPT that he is president yes. Respect the decision? I can not do so. I have no respect for the man, he has not earned it from me. I have no respect for the courts placing a man who recived only 49% of the popular vote in office. The majority was slim but it was a majority and they didn't want him.


NO ONE should be expected to show deference. Respect where it is deserved but NEVER deference.


That seems out of place. To defer is often a sign of respect, and often, of trust. A lack of trust prevents things from working properly.


You and I may have a different definition of deferance. To me deference implys utter submision, sitting quietly saying "Yes sir, please remove my rights to protect me from the nasty terrorists." as far too many are doing. As for trust, time and time again my govenment has proven that they do not deserve my trust.


SO CALLED???!!!??? They are exercising (NOT exploiting!) what is not only their RIGHT but their obligation to protest something that they disagree with. As far as anti-American obsenites, well America isn't doing much to be proud of right now, and people seem to think that just because they disagreed with us about war, anti-German and anti-French obsenites are ok.


Civil disobedience can occur without any form of country-bashing, be it our own or anothers'. In this, I certainly agree. The protestors have their place and are needed. I would be far more worried if there were no protestors than I am at the amount there are. America, on the other hand, is doing plenty to be proud of, it just doesn't make the headlines.


How does what they're doing stack against an unprovoked war and the slow stripping of our rights by the Patriot act? Also I agree that the anti-nation obsenetys are needless no mater what nation they're against, but I can also understand the anger against America, even from it's own citizens.


I will force myself to:
-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh
- experience the loss

A lot of that going on with inocent civilians in Iraq, the first death caused by our bombing was that of a cab driver who's only crime was pulling over to make a phone call.


And those who were attacked in the Twin Towers, their only crime was going to work. In war, civilian casualties are to be minimized, but they cannot be negated. It is unfortunate, but it will always happen.


The Twin Towers have nothing to do with Iraq and two wrongs do not make a right in any case. There is no such thing as an acceptable civilian casulty.

Finaly, this war is not right, it is not even handed or just, and there is precious little mercy or honor in it.


Saddam Hussein is not completely blameless... it just happens to be that he's in the sights now and the President chooses to do something about it. He could just as easily turn on North Korea or some of our allied governments that are fairly repressive in their own right. The war appears to be conducted for the wrong reasons, and that's why many protest it. Under different circumstances, one could easily see greater approval ratings for it. Right now, however, could be the only opportunity, even if unpopular.


I never claimed that Sadam was blameless, and I'm trying very hard NOT to be an a**hole right now because I've seen way to many people accuse anyone who is anti-war of being PRO Sadam and that's what your statement sounded like. North Korea there would be an excuse for going in, after all we KNOW they have weapons of mass distruction. Or if we want to go to war with someone because their violating UN resolutions, how about we go after Isreal (and before someone makes the mistake, not EVERYONE who dislikes Isreal's policys is anti-semitic. I just happen to find people who send tanks against people throwing rocks to be poor alies).
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Postby zodo on Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:58 pm

Redwulf, I fully realize that you are passionate about your beliefs, and that I have zero chance of persuading you. That said, I must declare that I disagree with you.

I'm not going to give any reasons why, because you won't listen to them.

I do have a question though. You stated that the first casualty of the Iraq missile strikes was a taxi cab driver. How do you know this? I haven't seen it printed anywhere. Could you post a source for me, please?

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Postby redwulf25_ci on Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:54 pm

zodo wrote:Redwulf, I fully realize that you are passionate about your beliefs, and that I have zero chance of persuading you. That said, I must declare that I disagree with you.

I'm not going to give any reasons why, because you won't listen to them.

I do have a question though. You stated that the first casualty of the Iraq missile strikes was a taxi cab driver. How do you know this? I haven't seen it printed anywhere. Could you post a source for me, please?


Sorry, read it in a news paper in Denver and in adition to the two for sale I also read two independant papers (Westword, and I think that the other is called Denver Daily news but don't quote me) that are available for free on a weekly and daily basis respectivly and I no longer recall which one I read it in. I think it was denver daily news, which actualy seems to have no bias liberal or conservitive, pro war or against, but I'm not absolutly sure that's the paper. And I have no clue at all what day it was. It just meantioned him as the first casualty of our bombing. Another problem I have with the way things are running is that a campaign of bombing intended to create "shock and awe" sounds a little too much like terrorisim to suit me.
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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:25 pm

The moral of the story: Don't trust the sensationalistic media. The tendency to exploit emotions for ratings, public support, approval, etc.

For a while, I thought there were no heroes, just levels of villainy. As I found out (through sources independant of the American Government), the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and his sons (particularly of the older son), I knew that he had to go, pure and simple.
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