Is this or is this not honorable?

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Is this or is this not honorable?

Postby Thalass on Mon Aug 26, 2002 8:35 pm

Hey everyone!

I was just thinking about this a while ago, and now I have the perfect place to ask about it!


You see, a friend of mine from another forum has just been gaoled for 12 months over an incident where he 'punished' someone who had wronged his him. I'll let him explain what happened. This is what he told us on the other forum:

well as i said a couple of weeks ago i'm now back at my mothers where i have no internet access

forget the marital probs as these things happen

i was hoping to get setup for broadband but events now dictate that there is no point

2 days after i moved back into my mothers my car was stolen and written off

the area my mother lives has become a den of drugs and social disorder

being extremely pissed about having to leave the home and children a spent 11 years sweating blood for the theft of my car was the final straw

so i questioned they "youth of the the area" using severe imperial techniques

(you don't want to know)

i was informed by one of the victims that my car had been stolen by the estates main drug dealers son

so i paid him a visit

he was informed that he had 2 days to provide me with the 500 pounds i had calculated as lost due to his sons actions

he declined!

he now resides in the local hospital with a broken collar bone, broken nose, broken leg and jaw

i have been in police custody for the last three days and if it was not for the fact that my sister is a solicitor i would not have been granted bail

my case is being heard next thursday

so i may be taking a leave of absence for a few months if you get my drift

i have been charged with gbh (no chance of lowering to abh as he never got a chance to mark me)

demanding money with menaces
and interfering with witnesses
(his friends and family got a visit to inform them to stay away from my mother)

so guys enjoy yourselves and save me a copy of x2



and then he got the sentence. 12 months. mid jan release if he's good.


So. I was thinking: Was this the honorable thing to do? It certainly wasn't even handed.
Well, I figure you guys should know either way.


Thanks, guys.

Thalass
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Okay...

Postby Silver Adept on Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:00 am

Requesting more data....

Did the person whose car was stolen go through all the available options (police, civil lawsuits, etc.) before using his fists?
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Postby zodo on Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:19 pm

Like SA, I can't say anything for certain until I know all the facts.

On first impression, though, this seems more like a case of vengeance, instead of honor or justice. When one is personally involved, the line between justice and vengeance grows very thin.

I don't know what ABH or GBH are, but from hearing the story, he does seem to admit that he committed the other offenses. He admits that he was angry, therefore was acting on emotion, instead of rational thinking.

As Silver Adept said, We would need to know if he tried other recourses first. I know that he said the car was written off. Was this by the police, or the insurance company?

In any case, we must all live with the consequences of our actions. I would advise your friend to watch his back, as those he hurt may have friends in the jail as well.

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Thanks, guys

Postby Thalass on Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:34 pm

Thanks, guys.

Well. I don't think he contacted the police untill after his visit. He wasn't very smart about it, but I do understand why he did it.

I don't really know any more than what he told us on the other forum. I think that the car was 'written off' as in torched or somehow physically destroyed by the kids who stole it. As I said, I don't really know.

I suppose it wasn't really honorable, was it? heh. Well, the drug dealer and his car thief son are still roaming England but at least a vigilantie resident is behind bars. *sigh*

oh well. Thanks


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Postby Darth Paradox on Sat Sep 07, 2002 10:07 pm

I see no honor in it. Violence was not a last resort (whether it ever should be is another matter entirely, and not one I'm willing or able to take up at the moment) - it was very nearly a first one. Car theft is a pretty serious offense, and it sounds like there would have been enough evidence for the police to put together a case.

The reason "vigilantes" are so often looked down upon is because of things like this - the complete circumvention of proper channels for handling a problem.
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Re: Is this or is this not honorable?

Postby redwulf25_ci on Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:13 am

Thalass T'Kynn wrote:Hey everyone!

I was just thinking about this a while ago, and now I have the perfect place to ask about it!


You see, a friend of mine from another forum has just been gaoled for 12 months over an incident where he 'punished' someone who had wronged his him. I'll let him explain what happened. This is what he told us on the other forum:

well as i said a couple of weeks ago i'm now back at my mothers where i have no internet access

forget the marital probs as these things happen

i was hoping to get setup for broadband but events now dictate that there is no point

2 days after i moved back into my mothers my car was stolen and written off

the area my mother lives has become a den of drugs and social disorder

being extremely pissed about having to leave the home and children a spent 11 years sweating blood for the theft of my car was the final straw

so i questioned they "youth of the the area" using severe imperial techniques

(you don't want to know)


Read torture/I beat it out of them. There is no honor in torture, and often no truth as they will say anything to make you stop

i was informed by one of the victims that my car had been stolen by the estates main drug dealers son

so i paid him a visit

he was informed that he had 2 days to provide me with the 500 pounds i had calculated as lost due to his sons actions

he declined!

he now resides in the local hospital with a broken collar bone, broken nose, broken leg and jaw


Hospitalised a man based on what may have been faulty information and for the actions of his son. He may not have known or beleived his son to be guilty of what he was acused of.

and then he got the sentence. 12 months. mid jan release if he's good.


ONLY 12 months? He could have killed the man, and over a CAR. I might be understaning if it had been done because he beat or raped someone but for a CAR?
He needs to be put away longer and sent to psyciatric counciling.

So. I was thinking: Was this the honorable thing to do? It certainly wasn't even handed.
Well, I figure you guys should know either way.


No, there was no honor in his behavior.
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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:15 am

Hmm...

The line between justice and vengeance is thin indeed, and I fear that he had just crossed it.

Maybe it was an act of rage, but what he had done was wrong, if he didn't exhaust all of his options. If he had, legally, he could plead diminished capacity depending on what state of the union he is in. But we aren't talking about excuses. So let me get back on topic.

Based on the sort of beating described, it was uncalled for. It is one thing to do such if your life or another's is threatened, but to do the above...

Such a path should not be taken lightly. I wish your friend well.
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A seperate question.

Postby Coureton on Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:22 pm

I haven't posted on this board much since I joined this order, but this thread seemed an apropriate place to ask this.
I was on the subway on my way to a class, and a man standing next to me slapped his girlfriend after an argument I didn't hear all of. I without thinking, just reacted and hit him lightly in the face. He appologised, and got off of the train, she thanked me.
I know this was not the right reaction, but even after thinking I didn't know what to do. Does anyone have any advice on what I should have done, or should do if this sort of situation comes up again?

Be well
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Postby AltheaMorgan on Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:01 pm

Coureton -
I guess it depends what you mean by "lightly." If it wasn't really painful, I suppose that might be an appropriate reprimand, but I think first you should've tried simply talking to him. But if it was a reflex on your part, that might not have been an option....I don't know, really.
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Re: A seperate question.

Postby Jamie on Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:56 pm

Coureton wrote:I haven't posted on this board much since I joined this order, but this thread seemed an apropriate place to ask this.
I was on the subway on my way to a class, and a man standing next to me slapped his girlfriend after an argument I didn't hear all of. I without thinking, just reacted and hit him lightly in the face. He appologised, and got off of the train, she thanked me.
I know this was not the right reaction, but even after thinking I didn't know what to do. Does anyone have any advice on what I should have done, or should do if this sort of situation comes up again?

Be well
Coureton


Most would not have done anything at all. I don't think what you did was necessarily wrong, but it was dangerous. I understand it was a reflex action, but you could have been hurt or worse. The fact that he apologized and the girl thanked you says a lot also. Perhaps your act will give him pause for thought "next time". That you did anything at all is noble indeed, but next time a good firm talking to or a stern look may be the best way to procede. :)

I'm glad you are okay and that it worked out the way it did. :)

Thank you for sharing.

Take care,

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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Fri Nov 15, 2002 5:23 pm

Hey, Courteon, most people would have never considered it their business. Since it changed they guy's view, you had done well. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis, but sometimes a light blow brings it all back into perspective.
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Re: A seperate question.

Postby Darth Paradox on Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:14 pm

Coureton wrote:I haven't posted on this board much since I joined this order, but this thread seemed an apropriate place to ask this.
I was on the subway on my way to a class, and a man standing next to me slapped his girlfriend after an argument I didn't hear all of. I without thinking, just reacted and hit him lightly in the face. He appologised, and got off of the train, she thanked me.
I know this was not the right reaction, but even after thinking I didn't know what to do. Does anyone have any advice on what I should have done, or should do if this sort of situation comes up again?

Be well
Coureton


Your choice to try to stop the wrong you saw was an honorable one, and I assume that your physical reaction was restrained (unlike in the example brought up in the beginning of the thread). I don't know enough about the situation, but were I in the situation I would not have immediately reacted physically, but instead tried to break things up verbally first. You were in no immediate danger at the time, and it didn't seem like the girl was either (again, I can't say for sure, but a slap in the face does not seem like a threat of more serious violence - it should be stopped, but it is not necessarily an immediately dangerous situation). This is my own personal view on the situation, however, and a light hit to the face could very well be considered even-handed justice.

I'm glad it turned out well - the fact that the situation resolved that way indicates that you handled things pretty well, and in my opinion honorably, in general.
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Re: Is this or is this not honorable?

Postby ff0ecaf on Sun Nov 17, 2002 7:54 pm

Thalass T'Kynn wrote:Hey everyone!

I was just thinking about this a while ago, and now I have the perfect place to ask about it!


You see, a friend of mine from another forum has just been gaoled for 12 months over an incident where he 'punished' someone who had wronged his him. I'll let him explain what happened. This is what he told us on the other forum:

well as i said a couple of weeks ago i'm now back at my mothers where i have no internet access

forget the marital probs as these things happen

i was hoping to get setup for broadband but events now dictate that there is no point

2 days after i moved back into my mothers my car was stolen and written off

the area my mother lives has become a den of drugs and social disorder

being extremely pissed about having to leave the home and children a spent 11 years sweating blood for the theft of my car was the final straw

so i questioned they "youth of the the area" using severe imperial techniques

(you don't want to know)

i was informed by one of the victims that my car had been stolen by the estates main drug dealers son

so i paid him a visit

he was informed that he had 2 days to provide me with the 500 pounds i had calculated as lost due to his sons actions

he declined!

he now resides in the local hospital with a broken collar bone, broken nose, broken leg and jaw

i have been in police custody for the last three days and if it was not for the fact that my sister is a solicitor i would not have been granted bail

my case is being heard next thursday

so i may be taking a leave of absence for a few months if you get my drift

i have been charged with gbh (no chance of lowering to abh as he never got a chance to mark me)

demanding money with menaces
and interfering with witnesses
(his friends and family got a visit to inform them to stay away from my mother)

so guys enjoy yourselves and save me a copy of x2



and then he got the sentence. 12 months. mid jan release if he's good.


So. I was thinking: Was this the honorable thing to do? It certainly wasn't even handed.
Well, I figure you guys should know either way.


Thanks, guys.

Thalass


That is not at all Honorable, it is dispicible. He didn't know if they people were telling the truth or not, so he could have beaten an innocent person.

I haven't posted on this board much since I joined this order, but this thread seemed an apropriate place to ask this.
I was on the subway on my way to a class, and a man standing next to me slapped his girlfriend after an argument I didn't hear all of. I without thinking, just reacted and hit him lightly in the face. He appologised, and got off of the train, she thanked me.
I know this was not the right reaction, but even after thinking I didn't know what to do. Does anyone have any advice on what I should have done, or should do if this sort of situation comes up again?

Be well
Coureton


You put yourself in the way of her getting more harm. That is Honorable. Not saying he didn't deserve it, but you probably should have tried talking before you hit him, but since it all worked out, gg.
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Postby Coureton on Sun Nov 17, 2002 8:55 pm

Thank you all for your perspective on this situation. I apriciate it. One hopes next time I will do what I know I should do rather than reacting first. Thank you.
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Postby Darth Paradox on Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:14 pm

Coureton wrote:Thank you all for your perspective on this situation. I apriciate it. One hopes next time I will do what I know I should do rather than reacting first. Thank you.


You're quite welcome. Thank you for wanting to learn from a situation like that. Good luck next time you need to apply your principles.
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Postby ff0ecaf on Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:28 pm

Coureton wrote:Thank you all for your perspective on this situation. I apriciate it. One hopes next time I will do what I know I should do rather than reacting first. Thank you.


You're welcome. But next time... ask first...
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Postby zodo on Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:26 pm

It seems to me that Coureton was upholding the Oath, which contains a line, last time I checked, about defending others, with my own life if necessary.

Granted, he escalated the situation quickly, and was fortunate to get the desired result. He could have been hurt, but that's a risk when one steps up to the defense of another. Personally, I would have spoken first, but I've always been better at using words as weapons.

It is the opinion of this Companion that Coureton did well for himself, upholding the Oath that we all swore.

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(edit: Noticed I spelled his name wrong.)
Last edited by zodo on Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thalass on Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:51 pm

I haven't posted on this board much since I joined this order, but this thread seemed an apropriate place to ask this.
I was on the subway on my way to a class, and a man standing next to me slapped his girlfriend after an argument I didn't hear all of. I without thinking, just reacted and hit him lightly in the face. He appologised, and got off of the train, she thanked me.
I know this was not the right reaction, but even after thinking I didn't know what to do. Does anyone have any advice on what I should have done, or should do if this sort of situation comes up again?

Be well
Coureton


Now that is what it's about. You saw something happen that shouldn't and you put yourself in possible danger to help that girl. I'm in awe of you, mate. Although telling the guy off first may have been a better course of action, you still did the right thing.
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Postby Arrus on Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:45 am

Goodness...That sounds...goodness. Coureton, I personally feel that you did a good thing, though the methods are perhaps not the best. Words work best first...Still, getting involved, that can be the hardest step. Kudos, says I.
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Postby ff0ecaf on Thu Nov 21, 2002 10:56 pm

Well, I had my own little "test" today.
[Backstory] A girl I sorta know's ex-boyfriend is obsessed with her, and is stalking her. Last time he saw her he threw open her door and started screaming at her, and was probably going to hit her, but the ra's got there in time. This was about a month ago. [/Backstory]

Ok, so today at the bookstore/foodcourt/social area, I am walking along and I see her, say hi, and walk past. About 20 seconds later, I see him making a beeline straight for her. So I start also heading for her, so I can head him off if he tries anything. She also sees him, and starts heading in my general direction.

She's close enough that I can intervene, so I stop and fix him with a venomous glare, which he doesn't see because he is staring at her. She sees me and walks straight at me, and I fall in next to her, which is the point when he sees me, and a look of pissed off disappointment is on his face. He turned around and walked off.

I'm just glad I was there, because after he left I could see how afraid he had made her. Luckily I didn't have to do anything but stand there to fend him off, but I was willing and ready to do anything to keep him away from her.

Not trying to brag or anything, just wanted to share it. Felt really good knowning I stopped him from hurting her, and stopping her from more fear then she had already experienced.
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Postby Thalass on Fri Nov 22, 2002 12:06 am

Good for you! If that's all it takes in a situation, then a glare is the way to go!


Then again, you might be a tough lookin fella. Whereas I'm a weedy looking stick-man! hahaha So it might not work for me. (Although I've never been in a testing-type situation, so far - and I'm not looking for trouble either.)
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Postby Darth Paradox on Fri Nov 22, 2002 12:30 am

ff0ecaf wrote:Well, I had my own little "test" today.
[Backstory] A girl I sorta know's ex-boyfriend is obsessed with her, and is stalking her. Last time he saw her he threw open her door and started screaming at her, and was probably going to hit her, but the ra's got there in time. This was about a month ago. [/Backstory]

Ok, so today at the bookstore/foodcourt/social area, I am walking along and I see her, say hi, and walk past. About 20 seconds later, I see him making a beeline straight for her. So I start also heading for her, so I can head him off if he tries anything. She also sees him, and starts heading in my general direction.

She's close enough that I can intervene, so I stop and fix him with a venomous glare, which he doesn't see because he is staring at her. She sees me and walks straight at me, and I fall in next to her, which is the point when he sees me, and a look of pissed off disappointment is on his face. He turned around and walked off.

I'm just glad I was there, because after he left I could see how afraid he had made her. Luckily I didn't have to do anything but stand there to fend him off, but I was willing and ready to do anything to keep him away from her.

Not trying to brag or anything, just wanted to share it. Felt really good knowning I stopped him from hurting her, and stopping her from more fear then she had already experienced.


Excellently done. Way to be aware of your surroundings. Sounds like she felt safer with you around, as well, which is a great thing to be able to offer someone.
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Postby Coureton on Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:15 am

I'd agree, awareness of surounding points all around there. And the best way to end a situation is to see it comming and get out of the way before it happens.
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Re: A seperate question.

Postby redwulf25_ci on Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:47 pm

Coureton wrote:I haven't posted on this board much since I joined this order, but this thread seemed an apropriate place to ask this.
I was on the subway on my way to a class, and a man standing next to me slapped his girlfriend after an argument I didn't hear all of. I without thinking, just reacted and hit him lightly in the face. He appologised, and got off of the train, she thanked me.
I know this was not the right reaction, but even after thinking I didn't know what to do. Does anyone have any advice on what I should have done, or should do if this sort of situation comes up again?


Lightly slaped him in the face, eh? It's a good thing for him it wasn't ME standing next to him. Very few things can make me go "black eye", to use a Buffy term, (for those who don't watch the show, when a charicter named Willow saw her girlfriend killed in front of her she turned to dark magics to avange her as a result of her abuse of dark magic her eyes turned black whites, irises and all and she became increadibly violent actualy skining the man who killed her girlfriend alive.) but seeing a lady physicaly asualted is one of them. It would be VERY dificult for me to remember to be even handed or merciful and he would probably have pulled back a broken arm. Thankfuly I've not been put in such a situation recently, about 8 years ago something similar happened and only a trusted voice (which I did NOT recognise through my rage, but turned out to be my sister) actualy stoped me from striking, I've learned more disipline and control since then but would not care to test it.
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